Ph rose from 7.47 to 7.95 in one day

Thank you Chemgeek. You've pointed me to some places I can do some reading and that makes me happy. I also did a little more research and answered my own question about algae, specifically blue-green, and rises in pH. The article I read stated that BG algae can cause an increase in pH up to 9.5. That would have been another tip off for me.

Still not sold on the mineral pack thing because of personal experience. I wonder if over sized units may be the cause of some of the hair issues. I haven't really read anything about how NASA uses copper/silver ionization except I'm pretty sure it was relative to space and it seems to me water recycling there has to be quick and include water from feces. Could easily be way off in that assumption. I'm definitely going to do some reading mostly because I find it really interesting. Regardless, it's seems to me it may help and the expense over the time span of a season is minimal. I have to admit I do not like the idea of chlorine, but you've given me some things to consider and the cost of chlorine is certainly not a factor.

Thanks for your time and interesting answer. My pool seems clear this morning so hopefully all is well. A little clean up and some monitoring and I may get a little more use out of it before closing for the fall.

Thanks again and have a great Sunday.

Howard

It's the risk of metal staining especially against plaster surfaces and also the risk of turning blond hair greenish. If those risks weren't present, then we'd likely put copper ions in the same bucket as Polyquat 60 for algae control. It's not necessary because maintaining a proper Free Chlorine (FC) to Cyanuric Acid (CYA) ratio prevents algae growth.

With CYA in the water, the active chlorine level is low at around 0.06 ppm FC equivalent with no CYA for our minimums for non-SWG pools. That 7.5% FC/CYA ratio is what is needed to prevent green and black algae growth regardless of algae nutrient (phosphate, nitrate) level. If one wants to go below that FC/CYA level, then one would need to use an algaecide to prevent algae growth, though the disinfection rate would also be lowered as well. Though clearly in your case your copper ions aren't working to prevent algae at this point in time, possibly because their level has dropped or because you have more algae nutrients now and the copper level isn't sufficient (while earlier that level was enough when algae nutrient levels were lower).

I think you've got stuck in your brain that a high FC number means something bad in terms of having a lot of chlorine. It doesn't. The FC is the chlorine reserve since most of it is bound to CYA and inactive. The amount of chlorine that is unbound to CYA and is what disinfects, kills algae, and oxidizes swimsuits, skin, and hair is that very low 0.06 ppm amount. So if the only reason you are trying to go lower is this incorrect thought of the FC number meaning something that it really doesn't, then try to get your head around that. The only issue for a high FC would be if you were to drink lots and lots of pool water, but to get to the EPA limit of 4 ppm FC with 2 quarts a day for a lifetime, at 8 ppm FC you'd still have to drink a quart of pool water every day for the rest of your life and you'd still be at the 1 in a million increased cancer risk the EPA uses for their limits. And of course, you aren't drinking pool water in any such quantities so this is really irrelevant.

As for disinfection, as described in detail in this post, copper alone does not kill fecal bacteria and copper and silver together kill bacteria slowly, do not effectively inactivate viruses, and do not kill protozoa or inactivate their oocysts. The reason the metal ions work for NASA is 1) there is not a constant introduction of fecal matter with new bacteria, viruses, protozoan oocysts, etc. in the drinking water supply and 2) there is plenty of time for a slow kill of any residual pathogens in the drinking water. In a swimming pool without proper disinfection there is not only the risk of uncontrolled bacterial growth but also the risk of person-to-person transmission of disease. That is why the EPA requires a fast-acting disinfectant in the bulk pool water. The use of off-line systems such as UV or ozone do nothing to prevent pathogen transmission or even growth if stuck on pool walls and not circulated. The use of slow-acting metal ions do not kill quickly enough to meet EPA's Swimming Pool Disinfectants standard DIS/TSS-12. The only EPA-approved disinfectant chemical types for swimming pools are chlorine, bromine, and Baquacil/biguanide/PHMB.

Ignore the APSP, NSPI, CDC, EPA, state code, and everything else you've read (except for peer-reviewed scientific papers in respected journals) because none of them understand the FC/CYA relationship even though it's been known definitively since at least 1974. You can read more about this relationship in the "Chlorine/CYA Relationship" section of the thread Certified Pool Operator (CPO) training -- What is not taught. Specifying an FC range without referencing the CYA is ridiculous since the FC/CYA ratio (when CYA is present) is what determines the level of active chlorine that disinfects and oxidizes.

As for why your pH rose so quickly, we simply do not know since you haven't told us anything that would give us a clue as to the reason (you gave us info, but none of it is consistent with a rise in pH). If you see any breaks in your plaster with volcano-like formation of calcium carbonate on the floor or streaks of it on the walls then I'd say you had Calcium Nodules in your pool and the calcium hydroxide that gets exposed to the water and converted to calcium carbonate can raise the pH. If you had a change in aeration (rainfall, waterfalls, spillovers, fountains, pool usage including splashing) or longer pump run time then that can have more carbon dioxide outgassing causing the pH to rise more. If you used a different source of chlorinating liquid or bleach, then it might have more excess lye in it though that usually isn't enough to be noticeable in such a short time. If you used to use a net acidic chemical such as Dichlor, Trichlor, or non-chlorine shock (MPS) and this year stopped using it then perhaps your pH was kept in check with those chemicals and now it isn't. If you add a hypochlorite source of chlorine the pH will rise temporarily as the FC rises, but you compared pH on two days with the same FC level. If you accidentally added pH Up or similar product instead of the intended acid, then that would raise the pH quickly. Again, these are just guesses because nothing you mentioned would point to a reason for more rapidly rising pH that we normal know about.

You did notice, at least most recently, that the pool water was getting cloudy, possibly from algae, so maybe the algae growth is causing a rise in pH though normally we don't see that. However, this paper implies that algae growth will tend to move the pH towards the 8.5-11.0 range so maybe that is what happened. If the cloudiness was from plaster deterioration (calcium nodules) then as I noted above that would raise the pH as well. However, you said that this entire season you've had to add more acid, not just recently. Perhaps you had nascent algae growth that wasn't yet visible and that tended to have the pH rise.
 
Great explanation, as always, ChemGeek.

Howard, you mentioned testing you ph today whie your FC was slightly above 10 ppm.

What I was saying before is that ph readings -- however you take them -- are not accurate, and will be read "high" when your FC is above 10 ppm. So please do not "count" today's reading, or bother reading again until you've finished the SLAM. I'm hopeful that said SLAM if you "compkete" it according to the guidelines will restore clarity and sparkle to your pool...at which time perhaps the ph rise will resolve itself -- or at least you'll have ruled out algae as the cause ;)
 
If you wanted to have a lower active chlorine level (FC/CYA ratio) below the level that chlorine alone would prevent algae growth, then you could use an algaecide such as Polyquat 60 weekly or could use a phosphate remover, neither of which would have any side effects or risks of metal staining of your plaster pool surface nor risk of turning blond hair greenish. However, the level of active chlorine needed to prevent algae growth in manually dosed pools is an FC/CYA ratio of 7.5% and that is equivalent to around 0.06 ppm FC with no CYA. So again, you need to get the idea of "FC" out of your head as a "large number" or something to worry about.

As for NASA, the early Apollo missions needed purification for water storage, but as described in this fact sheet they did not recycle the water :

The life support systems on the Mercury, Gemini and Apollo spacecraft in the 1960s were designed to be used once and discarded. Oxygen for breathing was provided from high pressure or cryogenic storage tanks. Carbon dioxide was removed from the air by lithium hydroxide in replaceable canisters. Contaminants in the air were removed by replaceable filters and activated charcoal integrated with the lithium hydroxide canisters. Water for the Mercury and Gemini missions was stored in tanks, while fuel cells on the Apollo spacecraft produced electricity and provided water as a byproduct. Urine and waste-water were collected and stored or vented overboard.

So there was no need for fast disinfection. Just preventing uncontrolled bacterial growth was sufficient. There would be no contamination from fecal matter -- no viruses, no protozoan oocysts, no large quantities of bacteria. Recycling of water came later and copper/silver systems were abandoned at least in part for that reason. This link describes one of the more recent systems that do recycle water as follows:

The Water Recovery System consists of a Urine Processor Assembly (UPA) and a Water Processor Assembly (WPA). A low pressure vacuum distillation process is used to recover water from urine. The entire process occurs within a rotating distillation assembly that compensates for the absence of gravity and therefore aids in the separation of liquids and gases in space. Product water from the Urine Processor is combined with all other wastewaters and delivered to the Water Processor for treatment. The Water Processor removes free gas and solid materials such as hair and lint, before the water goes through a series of multifiltration beds for further purification. Any remaining organic contaminants and microorganisms are removed by a high-temperature catalytic reactor assembly. The purity of product water is checked by electrical conductivity sensors (the conductivity of water is increased by the presence of typical contaminants). Unacceptable water is reprocessed, and clean water is sent to a storage tank, ready for use by the crew.

As described here, micro (nano) filtration is looked at as the future for water recycling. Reverse osmosis is another competing technology for this purpose, but both are related to very fine filtration that lets water through and excludes viruses, bacteria, organics, and other chemicals not desirable in water. The finer filtration is likely preferable over reverse osmosis so that some degree of minerals are retained, but this will depend on the level of salts in the water to be recycled.

Note that if you search for information you will find some on pseudo-NASA websites such as this one describing spin-offs from NASA, but note that this information is written by the spinoff manufacturer, not by NASA. It therefore contains misinformation typical of those who have a financial interest in your buying their products and I presume is where you are getting your information about copper/silver ionization used by NASA and as you can see from above such information is terribly deceptive since such systems are no longer in use and the kill times are slow (and not effective against viruses, etc.). For swimming pools, the claim that far less chlorine is needed is not true from a disinfection point of view (see this post for additional info on metal ions and swimming pool disinfection) and is only true if one is willing to lower the disinfection rate and suppress algae via other means. As I wrote before, you can do this if you want to and can do it less expensively and with far less risk by either using Polyquat 60 weekly or by using a phosphate remover. However, it really is unnecessary since the level of chlorine disinfection by-products in outdoor residential pools is very low.

We take our health very seriously and therefore examine all of the positives and negatives of chlorine use. Since you enjoy reading more information, let me balance the discussion by referring you to some analysis of chlorine disinfection by-products. See Asthma and Chlorinated Pools. See this post and the ones later in that thread on the mutagenecity and genotoxicity of chlorine disinfection by-products in swimming pool water. The bottom line is that chlorinated disinfection by-products are of greatest concern in high bather-load commercial/public pools especially indoors though even those levels are not extreme (though something that should be addressed and is by German DIN 19643 and other standards). The amounts of by-products and their associated risk in outdoor residential pools is much lower mostly due to the much lower bather-load, the order-of-magnitude lower active chlorine level due to CYA, and due to outdoor pool exposure to sunlight and better air circulation. When the UV in sunlight breaks down chlorine, it produces hydroxyl radicals that are powerful oxidizers (see this post for more physical/chemical details on this breakdown). This is similar to the effect of using an ozonator since ozone also breaks down into hydroxyl radicals (see Chemistries of Ozone for Municipal Pool and Spa Water Treatment). The amount from sunlight is not enough for higher bather-load pools, but for residential pools that are typically low bather-load it helps to control organic buildup and directly reduces some disinfection by-products such as dichloramine.

As for the downsides of metal ionizer systems, you can do a Google search of this forum on Copper Stain and on green hair to see that these issues occur from a variety of systems, be they copper-only, copper with silver, copper with silver and zinc, copper from copper sulfate products, copper from ionizers (electrolysis of metal rods), etc. Higher levels of copper ions OR higher levels of pH (when copper is present) will cause staining of plaster surfaces and it should be noted that plaster surfaces tend to be higher in pH to begin with (especially when curing, but even afterwards). Also note that a doubling of copper ion concentration is equivalent to a rise in pH of 0.3 in terms of staining so even maintaining a lower copper ion concentration (say 0.4 ppm) is not enough -- one must also control the pH as well. Since copper stains are some of the most difficult to remove (especially compared to iron), we recommend avoiding that risk entirely. As for turning blond hair greenish, you can read more about why this occurs in this paper.
 
I think when you are talking about information from NASA it's for drinking water and not swimming pools. BIG difference in how you treat the two as drinking water isn't usually held in open vinyl, concrete or fiberglass containers the way pool water is.
If APSP recommendations were correct then you wouldn't find so many happy TFP users who came here because the "Professionals" couldn't help them and they had uncontrollable pools too nasty to swim in. Most of us here are former pool store customers that reached a point where the advise became too expensive and or wasn't helping any longer. TFP works because we use it and most of us have tried at least one other supposedly professional approach to pool care that didn't' work before ending up here.

Using mineral packs or metals will work for some people but you find a lot of former users here using the TFP method with their systems disconnected. The TFP method will work for everyone, everyday.
:lovetfp:
 
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