They both have to RUN at the same time, not that they need to be connected to the same breaker. You could hook one up to your panel and the other to a neighbors panel and they could still run at the same time.
Pentair VS Trips Dedicated 20-amp GFCI Breaker
- Thread starter dmh
- Start date
Does your heater not have an external control input? If the pump, and heater, are both on dedicated breakers your controller should still be able to control heater operation, at least as far as on/off. Check the manuals, but if that heater has no external control ability whatsoever it could use its own breaker, run it via one of the AUX relays, and set an interlock preventing it from ever being turned on, even manually, unless the main pump is on.
Again, I'm not using Pentair, but they are usually pretty similar.
Again, I'm not using Pentair, but they are usually pretty similar.
Thanks to everyone for taking the time to read my long and disjointed posts. You have helped me immensely.
This is what I ended up doing today, although I would change it if I determined there was a better way: I connected the 20-amp GFCI breaker directly to the Intelliflo VS AND to a power relay, which energizes only when the pump is on. To this power relay, I connected the the heater on the load side. In this configuration, when the GFCI breaker is on, the pump has continuous power, although it only runs when commanded by the Intellitouch. The heater only receives power when the pump is commanded to run AND the GFCI breaker has not tripped.
I don't like having two wires connected to the GFCI breaker (isn't this against code?), but this is how the electrician wired it (but in a slightly different way). I don't see another way of doing it. If I connect the heater to a separate GFCI breaker, it would open the possibility of the the heater being turned on when the pump is not running (e.g., when the breaker to the pump has tripped).
The idea of using a separate breaker for the heater would work if I can figure out how to interlock the heater and pump. If I understand the programming correctly, I can tell the power relay to the heater not to energize unless the pump is commanded to be on, BUT there is no way to tell it not to energize if the GFCI breaker for the pump has tripped. In other words, the power relays will command the pump turn on, but they cannot tell if it is actually on. I tested this today. I turned the pump breaker off. The power relay still received the command (via 24VAC) to open.
This is what I ended up doing today, although I would change it if I determined there was a better way: I connected the 20-amp GFCI breaker directly to the Intelliflo VS AND to a power relay, which energizes only when the pump is on. To this power relay, I connected the the heater on the load side. In this configuration, when the GFCI breaker is on, the pump has continuous power, although it only runs when commanded by the Intellitouch. The heater only receives power when the pump is commanded to run AND the GFCI breaker has not tripped.
I don't like having two wires connected to the GFCI breaker (isn't this against code?), but this is how the electrician wired it (but in a slightly different way). I don't see another way of doing it. If I connect the heater to a separate GFCI breaker, it would open the possibility of the the heater being turned on when the pump is not running (e.g., when the breaker to the pump has tripped).
The idea of using a separate breaker for the heater would work if I can figure out how to interlock the heater and pump. If I understand the programming correctly, I can tell the power relay to the heater not to energize unless the pump is commanded to be on, BUT there is no way to tell it not to energize if the GFCI breaker for the pump has tripped. In other words, the power relays will command the pump turn on, but they cannot tell if it is actually on. I tested this today. I turned the pump breaker off. The power relay still received the command (via 24VAC) to open.
I understand what you are saying. I agree that proper interlocking would solve the problem.
On my system, the relays are commanded to open and close by 24VAC signals. The relay will activate when it receives the signal to do so, but it does not sense whether a load, such as from a pump or heater, actually occurs. Thus, even if you interlock the pump and heater that are on separate breakers, the pump breaker could trip and the relays would remain open, allowing the heater to run without the pump running. I don't know any way around this potentially bad scenario.
It's not something you would obviously want to rely on for regular operation, but should that happen the water pressure switch in the heater is there to still prevent it from operating.
Also, IF you decide to live with GFCI trips and share a breaker you still shouldn't double-tap those lugs. Use one wire and split them after the breaker using wire nuts and then wrap those with electricians tape just for safety. Most electricians I've talked to have stated it looks "sloppy" having them in the panel, but the panel itself is considered a junction box so not against code at least. Take that layman's info with a grain of salt and verify it, but it would be better than a double-tap in any event.
I still wish they would make all of these controllers a little more configurable. For most things the logic is obviously there, or very close, and only needs additional variables. For example, my SWG already has a flow switch. How hard would it be to add the ability to add that as an additional interlock? Or, since it already has timers why can't I set a timer for the SWG? Or, since it will give COMM errors with the VSP, wouldn't that make a good interlock if no COMM?
Also, IF you decide to live with GFCI trips and share a breaker you still shouldn't double-tap those lugs. Use one wire and split them after the breaker using wire nuts and then wrap those with electricians tape just for safety. Most electricians I've talked to have stated it looks "sloppy" having them in the panel, but the panel itself is considered a junction box so not against code at least. Take that layman's info with a grain of salt and verify it, but it would be better than a double-tap in any event.
I still wish they would make all of these controllers a little more configurable. For most things the logic is obviously there, or very close, and only needs additional variables. For example, my SWG already has a flow switch. How hard would it be to add the ability to add that as an additional interlock? Or, since it already has timers why can't I set a timer for the SWG? Or, since it will give COMM errors with the VSP, wouldn't that make a good interlock if no COMM?
mgarf33
Well-known member
- Oct 27, 2013
- 207
First, you are still parallel wiring both loads to the same GFCI, so the relay contacts don't make any difference in regards to the original issue.
Second, your heater has built in flow controls to ensure water is flowing before energizing. The heater install manual wiring suggestion is a redundant safety.
Yes, this is correct. I am parallel loading to the same GFCI. If I rely on the flow controls to keep the heater from operating, I could install another GFCI breaker for the heater and be done with it.
In the sub panel, there are already 2 x 20-amp GFCI breakers, 1 x 20 amp breaker, and 1 x 15 amp breaker. The main panel breaker to the sub panel is only 50 amps. If I add another 20-amp GFCI breaker for the heater, would a future inspector give me a hard time about having 95 amps total breakers in the sub that is fed by only a 50-amp breaker in the main? I understand I am not changing the current load by adding the 20 amp breaker, but it certainly looks like eye-popping potential over-amperage in the sub compared to the main.
I guess I could go to 100 amps in the main panel if the wiring to the sub could handle it.
In the sub panel, there are already 2 x 20-amp GFCI breakers, 1 x 20 amp breaker, and 1 x 15 amp breaker. The main panel breaker to the sub panel is only 50 amps. If I add another 20-amp GFCI breaker for the heater, would a future inspector give me a hard time about having 95 amps total breakers in the sub that is fed by only a 50-amp breaker in the main? I understand I am not changing the current load by adding the 20 amp breaker, but it certainly looks like eye-popping potential over-amperage in the sub compared to the main.
I guess I could go to 100 amps in the main panel if the wiring to the sub could handle it.
An inspector would be worried about the total load, not the breaker size or count, as long as each breaker is sized to handle the branch circuit. Your total load is the same now, as it would be with another breaker as you said.
Thanks. I will go ahead and move the heater to a separate 20-amp GFCI breaker. Overkill, but that is what it was on to begin with.
Thanks again for your help. You guys certainly helped me think things through. I hope someone else will spot the thread and benefit from it.
Thanks again for your help. You guys certainly helped me think things through. I hope someone else will spot the thread and benefit from it.
If on its own circuit the heater should be fine on a 15A. If it was on a 20A it should have 12 Awg or thicker wire already run. You can put that on a 15A, just not the other way around. You would have to rewire through the conduit, but it could also be reconfigured for 120V and only need a single pole. Have the installer who double tapped the breaker come fix that and rewire the heater while you watch him like a hawk
Unfortunately, it is out of warranty. Whatever happens, I will need to take care of it. Besides, I actually enjoy doing these things myself. I learn a lot in the process.
I bought a new 20-amp Seimens GFCI breaker to use as the dedicated breaker for the Intelliflo VS pump. Someone mentioned that the Seimens GFCI is the same as the Pentair-branded GFCI. I will use the old 20-amp Eaton GFCI as the dedicated breaker for the heater (a huge overkill, I know). The wiring on the entire system is AWG 12 (except the wiring from from the main panel to the sub) so a 20-amp breaker will be ok.
I bought a new 20-amp Seimens GFCI breaker to use as the dedicated breaker for the Intelliflo VS pump. Someone mentioned that the Seimens GFCI is the same as the Pentair-branded GFCI. I will use the old 20-amp Eaton GFCI as the dedicated breaker for the heater (a huge overkill, I know). The wiring on the entire system is AWG 12 (except the wiring from from the main panel to the sub) so a 20-amp breaker will be ok.
Did you ever get this resolved and are there any more issues w breaker tripping on the VSP side?
Yes I did. Upon the suggestion of someone in this thread, I checked how the wiring was done by the "licensed" electrician. Long story short, he did not provide a dedicated breaker for the VS pump, as was specified in the Pentair manual. I bought a 20-amp Seimens GFCI breaker and rewired the box so that the pump is the only thing on this breaker. From that day forward, it has never tripped the breaker again.
"I bought a 20-amp Seimens GFCI breaker and rewired the box so that the pump is the only thing on this breaker. From that day forward, it has never tripped the breaker again."
Good deal, and you are a VERY LUCKY MAN.
I had my EcoStar 3400VSP on a dedicated Seimens 20amp QF220 GFCI DP Breaker w only the pump on the circuit breaker and home-run wiring in conduit from pump to breaker and then went to a Sq-D w same spec's 20amp Double-pole, GFCI breaker and continue to have problems:
-breaker tripped so many times, the whole pump was replaced after 2 months
-ran for X months and breaker tripped again, the motor locked-up and motor was replaced on second VSP pump
-ran for X months and tripped again and the drive was replaced on the second pump
-tripped again after X months and the pump was moved to another breaker of same class. What was on the breaker where the pump was just moved to was moved to the breaker that had just tripped the pump.. 10-12 days later the breaker that the VSP was now on tripped, so now the second pump, that has already had the motor replaced and the drive replaced, just had another new drive replacement on Dec 15. The previous breaker where the VSP had tripped 2 weeks ago has the heater and blower on it, and it has not tripped.
The good news, the pump has been working fine since yesterday [Dec 15], but the Hayward ColorLogic LED lights will now not sync-up after I have tried re-syncing them over 30 times per the Hayward Troubleshooting Manual. I have re-synched them before the exact same way I tried 20+ times yesterday [Dec 15] and over 15+ times today [Dec 16] to re-synch them again - ZERO success.
Note, the DB 70amp breaker that feeds my pool service panel has never tripped, ever. We have (2) 200amp service panels in our garage and none of the breakers have ever tripped except during Hurricane Ike in 2008. Both of my neighbors [that have Pentair equipment, one on each side of me] have never had any issues w either their electricity or their pumps being pre-placed in over 5 yrs. Like I said, you are a very, very lucky man.
If I had 50 cents for every letter I typed on this subject, I would have paid for my pool 4-5 times over...I'm still looking for a solution. I am very glad you found yours - tstex
Good deal, and you are a VERY LUCKY MAN.
I had my EcoStar 3400VSP on a dedicated Seimens 20amp QF220 GFCI DP Breaker w only the pump on the circuit breaker and home-run wiring in conduit from pump to breaker and then went to a Sq-D w same spec's 20amp Double-pole, GFCI breaker and continue to have problems:
-breaker tripped so many times, the whole pump was replaced after 2 months
-ran for X months and breaker tripped again, the motor locked-up and motor was replaced on second VSP pump
-ran for X months and tripped again and the drive was replaced on the second pump
-tripped again after X months and the pump was moved to another breaker of same class. What was on the breaker where the pump was just moved to was moved to the breaker that had just tripped the pump.. 10-12 days later the breaker that the VSP was now on tripped, so now the second pump, that has already had the motor replaced and the drive replaced, just had another new drive replacement on Dec 15. The previous breaker where the VSP had tripped 2 weeks ago has the heater and blower on it, and it has not tripped.
The good news, the pump has been working fine since yesterday [Dec 15], but the Hayward ColorLogic LED lights will now not sync-up after I have tried re-syncing them over 30 times per the Hayward Troubleshooting Manual. I have re-synched them before the exact same way I tried 20+ times yesterday [Dec 15] and over 15+ times today [Dec 16] to re-synch them again - ZERO success.
Note, the DB 70amp breaker that feeds my pool service panel has never tripped, ever. We have (2) 200amp service panels in our garage and none of the breakers have ever tripped except during Hurricane Ike in 2008. Both of my neighbors [that have Pentair equipment, one on each side of me] have never had any issues w either their electricity or their pumps being pre-placed in over 5 yrs. Like I said, you are a very, very lucky man.
If I had 50 cents for every letter I typed on this subject, I would have paid for my pool 4-5 times over...I'm still looking for a solution. I am very glad you found yours - tstex
I am not familiar with your equipment. Unless I am reading what you wrote incorrectly, it sounds to me like the pumps have all been bad for one reason or another (i.e., it is not an electrical problem).
If you replace your pump again, I would go with a Pentair variable speed model (buy it online). I also suggest that you purchase a small sun cover for the pump motor/computer interface on Amazon (about $50 for a good one). I think heat is overlooked down South as a problem with the motors and circuit boards on pool pumps.
Might be worth changing out the capacitors on the pump motor. It is probably not the problem, but they are very cheap online (do not buy them from a pool store or pool website). Worth a shot.
If you are not getting any syncing, you might see if the internal button battery is dead (if it has one). Sometimes the computer interface acts strangely when those batteries go bad. Also, I assume that you completely turned the power off to the computer, left it for 10 minutes, and then rebooted to see if that helped.
Good luck. It took me over a month to figure out my problem.
If you replace your pump again, I would go with a Pentair variable speed model (buy it online). I also suggest that you purchase a small sun cover for the pump motor/computer interface on Amazon (about $50 for a good one). I think heat is overlooked down South as a problem with the motors and circuit boards on pool pumps.
Might be worth changing out the capacitors on the pump motor. It is probably not the problem, but they are very cheap online (do not buy them from a pool store or pool website). Worth a shot.
If you are not getting any syncing, you might see if the internal button battery is dead (if it has one). Sometimes the computer interface acts strangely when those batteries go bad. Also, I assume that you completely turned the power off to the computer, left it for 10 minutes, and then rebooted to see if that helped.
Good luck. It took me over a month to figure out my problem.
Thanks - see below
I am not familiar with your equipment. Unless I am reading what you wrote incorrectly, it sounds to me like the pumps have all been bad for one reason or another (i.e., it is not an electrical problem). Something on the bus-board was replaced when the breakers were tripped for 4-5 weeks during feb-march 2015. I am still not sure of the issue
If you replace your pump again, I would go with a Pentair variable speed model (buy it online). I am still under Hayward Warranty until March 2017...will a Pentair pump work w a Hayward controller, or a Hayward pump w a Pentair controller?
I also suggest that you purchase a small sun cover for the pump motor/computer interface on Amazon (about $50 for a good one). I think heat is overlooked down South as a problem with the motors and circuit boards on pool pumps. I built a 16 ft x 4 ft cover for the entire equipment pad...it has a 90% UV removal polybucarbonate panels over the equioment that takes off direct rain and sun from 10am to sunset...I can lift-up the section when I need to remove the filters to take off the cover. This set-up allows maximum air flow but removes direct rain and direct intense UV...
Might be worth changing out the capacitors on the pump motor. It is probably not the problem, but they are very cheap online (do not buy them from a pool store or pool website). Worth a shot. Again, I'm under warranty...
If you are not getting any syncing, you might see if the internal button battery is dead (if it has one). Sometimes the computer interface acts strangely when those batteries go bad. Also, I assume that you completely turned the power off to the computer, left it for 10 minutes, and then rebooted to see if that helped.
There is no button...it used to re-sync quickly, but the last time I did it [2 mo's ago] I remember it taking 20+ times...I'm going to try again this evening and if a no go, then I am placing a service call. Good luck. It took me over a month to figure out my problem.
Thanks again...my problems started upon activation of the install on Jan 20 2015 ran well for 9 mo's, then all of the stuff started happening again...
I am not familiar with your equipment. Unless I am reading what you wrote incorrectly, it sounds to me like the pumps have all been bad for one reason or another (i.e., it is not an electrical problem). Something on the bus-board was replaced when the breakers were tripped for 4-5 weeks during feb-march 2015. I am still not sure of the issue
If you replace your pump again, I would go with a Pentair variable speed model (buy it online). I am still under Hayward Warranty until March 2017...will a Pentair pump work w a Hayward controller, or a Hayward pump w a Pentair controller?
I also suggest that you purchase a small sun cover for the pump motor/computer interface on Amazon (about $50 for a good one). I think heat is overlooked down South as a problem with the motors and circuit boards on pool pumps. I built a 16 ft x 4 ft cover for the entire equipment pad...it has a 90% UV removal polybucarbonate panels over the equioment that takes off direct rain and sun from 10am to sunset...I can lift-up the section when I need to remove the filters to take off the cover. This set-up allows maximum air flow but removes direct rain and direct intense UV...
Might be worth changing out the capacitors on the pump motor. It is probably not the problem, but they are very cheap online (do not buy them from a pool store or pool website). Worth a shot. Again, I'm under warranty...
If you are not getting any syncing, you might see if the internal button battery is dead (if it has one). Sometimes the computer interface acts strangely when those batteries go bad. Also, I assume that you completely turned the power off to the computer, left it for 10 minutes, and then rebooted to see if that helped.
There is no button...it used to re-sync quickly, but the last time I did it [2 mo's ago] I remember it taking 20+ times...I'm going to try again this evening and if a no go, then I am placing a service call. Good luck. It took me over a month to figure out my problem.
Thanks again...my problems started upon activation of the install on Jan 20 2015 ran well for 9 mo's, then all of the stuff started happening again...
DMH - thank you for all the investigation and work you did to get your's to work.
I have the exact same problem - Pentair Intelliflo, Aqualink PDA controller, but have a Sta-Rite Max-E-Therm 333k Btu heater that currently is also running off of the same Siemens 20A GFCI breaker that the pump is on. The nuisance tripping is intermittent; I think it tripped once this winter. We have an inground with spa, and used the heater/spa at least 2x a week this winter. However, just in the past week it has tripped 3 times. Annoying to say the least.
Initially I was thinking it might be over-voltage or imbalanced phases because the weather just started to get warm here in Sacramento this week and the A/C season has started. I also "unofficially" have been keeping an eye on the voltage thinking that might be part of the problem. The power conditioner for my stereo shows voltage, and it tends to run a bit high at 124-126 volts on whatever phase that circuit is connected to. I was starting to think the over-voltage or surges from the A/C starting up could be causing it to trip.
The whole Aqualink subpanel is also protected by a GFCI in the main panel and it has only nuisance tripped a couple times. My theory is that there must be just enough phase voltage imbalance from the 24v transformer in the heater to cause the pump cap's to trip the GFCI.
Before I call SMUD to check incoming voltages, I'll pick up another GFCI just for the heater and see if that fixes the problem.
I have the exact same problem - Pentair Intelliflo, Aqualink PDA controller, but have a Sta-Rite Max-E-Therm 333k Btu heater that currently is also running off of the same Siemens 20A GFCI breaker that the pump is on. The nuisance tripping is intermittent; I think it tripped once this winter. We have an inground with spa, and used the heater/spa at least 2x a week this winter. However, just in the past week it has tripped 3 times. Annoying to say the least.
Initially I was thinking it might be over-voltage or imbalanced phases because the weather just started to get warm here in Sacramento this week and the A/C season has started. I also "unofficially" have been keeping an eye on the voltage thinking that might be part of the problem. The power conditioner for my stereo shows voltage, and it tends to run a bit high at 124-126 volts on whatever phase that circuit is connected to. I was starting to think the over-voltage or surges from the A/C starting up could be causing it to trip.
The whole Aqualink subpanel is also protected by a GFCI in the main panel and it has only nuisance tripped a couple times. My theory is that there must be just enough phase voltage imbalance from the 24v transformer in the heater to cause the pump cap's to trip the GFCI.
Before I call SMUD to check incoming voltages, I'll pick up another GFCI just for the heater and see if that fixes the problem.