Pentair Equipment New Build

[joeprunc]

I'm sure I'll get some heat from folks, but I finished my build late last year and have playing around with our spa and pool this winter I have a few items with my pool equipment that I'm not stoked with. I'm posting this as, I wish I read a thread like this before picking my pool equipment, as my PB was pushing Pentair very heavily. See signature/build for equipment details.

• We have 2 Intellibrite 5G lights in our pool, 1 in our spa, and two microbrite lights over the pool Baja Shelf. The colors of the intellibrites are completely different than the mircobrites, its actually kind of embarrassing when we have friends over.
  • I wish we went all microbrites, it would have been more $$ as I would have probably had a total of 6 in the pool.
• The ability to pick a custom color light is very difficult, and at that impossible to repeat it. And if you switch colors while its dark the pool goes black for a few seconds while it switches. (see more comments around the app and automation)
  • The light theme modes are cool, and kind of make up for this.
• The cartridge filter drain is directly under the inlet line, and near impossible to access, not sure if all filters are this way, but just bad engineering.
• The Intellicenter App is pretty bad, and this is probably my biggest regret. The app is OLD and has a very clunky interface. If you want to change anything it takes a good 10-20 seconds to log in (which feels like eternity when your kiddo wants you to turn the airblower on or off).
  • Setting groups and group features is challenging and doesn't always take.
  • Some of the programed features that require turning off a feature before initiating the new one, half of the time don't work correctly unless you turn the feature off before turning another on. (maybe this is the way my PB programmed items).
• The Intellivalves seem to be rather slow (maybe this is to ensure the pump doesn't dead head or run dry.

Aside from the items listed above, overall Pentair seems to be good quality equipment, and obviously have a phenomenal name in the industry. But when spending over $100K on a pool there are a few items that really need improvement. I've also learned that pool builders push equipment on what they get better deals with.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Joe,

I suspect that your IntelliCenter issues have much more to do with your PB's programming ability than the IntelliCenter.

All valve actuators seem to move at about the same rate.

Are all your lights connected to one transformer or can you individually control each one?

Let's see what @MyAZPool has to say about it.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[joeprunc]

Thanks Jim,
I had both my pool builder program various features as well as my pool service person (who actually specializes in warranty replacement equipment so has a good detail of knowledge around programming and pool equipment) cleaned some things up, and attempted to fix the issues I spoke of without any success. But yes I sure hope its a programing issue. The main item that bugs me is while playing in the spa, the bodies, and air blower pushes water over the spill over and into the pool....after spa time is over the water level is low and I have a bit of OCD. So to raise the spa level I use the programmed "spillover" feature that should change actuator valves to pull water from pool and return to spa. However, the "spillover" feature/program will not work unless I turn everything off (pump/spa), then switch to spillover feature.

That is good to know about the actuator valves, in the long run it probably helps with pump life.

Originally I had all of the lights connected to one relay (spa, pool body, and baja shelf), I eventually had the PB switch to have the spa on separate relay. The intellibrites in the pool body and spa are similar hue when a color is selected (no matter if on same or different relays). The mircrobrites are significantly different hues when compared to the intellibrites no matter which color is selected.

 

[pjt]

The ability to pick a custom color light is very difficult, and at that impossible to repeat it. And if you switch colors while its dark the pool goes black for a few seconds while it switches.

It's hard to believe we still have to deal with the antiquated way pool lights operate. I would hope Pentair or Jandy develops a modern system.

The cartridge filter drain is directly under the inlet line, and near impossible to access, not sure if all filters are this way, but just bad engineering.

You have a great filter, but it's installed and oriented terribly. Are you constrained for space with your equipment pad? It looks like everything is scrunched together.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Joe,

The guy who built your equipment pad was only thinking of himself and not how to build the pad so that routine maintenance could be done.

It makes no sense to put the pump where they did, and the pad is about half the size it should be.

Your spillover problem does not sound right to me. You should be able to push the "Spillway" icon and the valves should move to the spillway position. It could be that if the heater is on, it may go into a cooldown delay before the heater can be shut off, and the valves won't turn during the delay

As a test, I'd run the spa with the heater off and then see if the spillway mode works.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Turbo1Ton]

For the low spa water level, what I did was set the position of the return valve like 1 click over from full closed so I am always pulling a slight amount of spa make up water from the pool return, when in spa mode. This way the spa will stay full and I don't have the water level dropping issue. It is a small enough amount of makeup water that it doesn't cycle the heater all that much more.

Are you selecting your spillover circuit while the spa is turned on? I just tried this on mine, and it will not engage unless the pool circuit is activated. In this instance I believe that the spa mode trumps a pool circuit selection.

My PB admittedly didn't know much about the IC. They told me I probably knew more about it than they did.

--Jeff

 

[mknauss]

I suspect the spa mode is higher rpm of the pump, and if you engage Spillover, which likely has a lower rpm, it will not engage as the higher rpm function wins

 

[Turbo1Ton]

Good point Marty. Thinking about this more, spillover has valve positions in it which should rotate regardless of pump speed. I agree that the higher pump speed wins, but it should still activate the valves. I think the issue is that the spillover feature calls for the suction valve to be set to pool and the return valve to be set to spa.

I'm calling it energized and de-energized for sake of discussion. Understanding that the valve actuator remains energized to function, but hopefully you guys understand what I mean.

So for spa select, you have:
- Energize suction actuator
- Energize return actuator

For spillover you have:
- De-energize suction actuator
- Energize return actuator

I am guessing that the circuit that energizes both wins, since it can't do both at the same time.

--Jeff

 

[joeprunc]

Thank you for the details around this. I do have different RPMs between spill over and spa mode. Generally I run spa at 2800 RPM (without air blower) or 1800 (with air blower), and heater mode is 2500 RPM. The spillover is set to 2100 RPM. Now that I'm thinking of this....since I'm using one pump for all features I have 6 different pump settings/speeds in the "Pumps" tab in the app (Pool, Spa, Heater, Spillway, Highspeed, Air Blower, Spa Low Speed). Maybe the logic isn't connecting the correct pump speed to the change in "feature". I will fiddle with this....but either way case and point with the clunkiness of the programing, App, and/or interface. Spending that much $$$ on an automation, the logic should be in the program.

One way to maybe prove or defunct the RPM concern is change the setting to turn off my pump when valves actuate....I'll play with this later this week.

The topic around a small trickle of pool water while in the spa sounds like a good idea in the summer...but winter when pool is 45F, I'd assume that will cool the spa rather quickly. I'll modify that later in the year, but that is a great idea.

The actuator "energized and denergized" sounds accurate. Assuming that when stating "energized", the valve should be open to "spa plumbing". That is currently how my two features are setup.

 

[Turbo1Ton]

The topic around a small trickle of pool water while in the spa sounds like a good idea in the summer...but winter when pool is 45F, I'd assume that will cool the spa rather quickly. I'll modify that later in the year, but that is a great idea.

I don't get in the spa all that much but my kids haven't complained about it at all. It is a very small amount. For example, when I have 4-5 people in the spa, and they all get out, it may take 10-15 minutes for the water to refill.

The actuator "energized and denergized" sounds accurate. Assuming that when stating "energized", the valve should be open to "spa plumbing". That is currently how my two features are setup.

You are correct.

I think your pump speed logic is working just fine. If you have both spa and spillover selected, and then turn off spa, your pump speed will slow to 2100, the suction valve will return to the pool position and the spillover will fill the spa.

In this case, the pump speed doesn't have anything to do with the fact that the spillover won't work correctly when in spa mode. It has to do with the fact that you are trying to control a valve to 2 different positions at the same time. It just won't work.

--Jeff

 

[joeprunc]

Given this statement it sounds like it is not a programming error on my side, but actually a App/Pentair programing flaw. It sounds like I need to turn stuff off only to select new feature. Or maybe the way the spill over was programed was only to actuate the return valve, and since its orientation of spa and spill over is the same...it doesn't do anything. Can I assign two separate valves to one feature, and assign appropriate positions?

In this case, the pump speed doesn't have anything to do with the fact that the spillover won't work correctly when in spa mode. It has to do with the fact that you are trying to control a valve to 2 different positions at the same time. It just won't work.

 

[Turbo1Ton]

Can I assign two separate valves to one feature, and assign appropriate positions?

Only one valve can be assigned to a feature circuits. The only two valves that are programmed to work together are the suction and return valves, which are internally programmed by Pentair. The only feature I know of that acts on both valves is Spa. All of the others only activate one valve.

You can assign multiple features to a circuit, but you must program that in a circuit group. For instance, I have a circuit group called 'kid play' that will turn on all of the water features at once. So if kids are here and they want to play in all of the features, I only have to select that one circuit. I also use that circuit in my schedules, so that several times a week, that circuit group will run and flush the water feature lines. This allows me to only use 1 schedule for all 3 water features, as opposed to individually scheduling the 3 features, and using 3 different schedules.

You can't assign a position for the valve, in the software. You can assign a home position and a 'selected' position, for a lack of better terms, on the valve actuator itself. Then the software will either 'energize' the valve to move the actuator to the selected position, or 'de-energize' the valve to move it back to the home position depending on your feature selection.

There is no programming for the spillway feature, it is internally programmed by Pentair. When you select 'spillway' as the feature to use for your circuit, the system knows that when that circuit is selected, it should rotate the return valve to spa (selected or energized position) and leave the suction valve in pool (home or de-energized position).

The same goes for Spa. That is pre-programmed by Pentair so that when Spa is selected, it rotates both suction and return valves to their selected, or energized positions. When pool is selected, it rotates both suction and return valves to their home or de-energized positions.

The spillway feature is intended to pull water from the pool, and return it all through the spa. In order to do this and be able to have a good waterfall/spillway feature, it needs full suction from the pool. Using this spillway mode when you are in the spa, will drop your spa temp in a few seconds. This would not be ideal.

Refilling the spa using the spillway feature is fine, but this must be done once you are finished in the spa and have turned off the spa feature. This is why I choose to pull just a small amount of makeup water from the pool return, by setting the valve position so that it is slightly cracked open when in spa mode. Keeps the spa full while using, and does not require selecting any features when I'm done with the spa.

Are you trying to use the spillway feature, while you are sitting in the spa? That would not be ideal as mentioned before, because it will cool your spa down to your pool temp in a matter of a few minutes. If you are just wanting to 'top off' the spa, once done, all you need to do is set an egg timer on your spillway feature for 15 minutes or so. Then when you are done using the spa, turn off spa, select spillway, and walk away. After 15 minutes, the spillway feature will turn off, and your spa will be filled. It sounds as if you may be trying to use this in a manner which nobody envisioned in being used. Just trying to understand so maybe we can figure out a work around for you.

Calling in @MyAZPool - You may have a little better insight into the valve programming. I know you elected to not use the internally programmed Intake/Return valve ports on your system. Maybe you have some more information that might be of assistance?

--Jeff

 

[joeprunc]

Refilling the spa using the spillway feature is fine, but this must be done once you are finished in the spa and have turned off the spa feature. This is why I choose to pull just a small amount of makeup water from the pool return, by setting the valve position so that it is slightly cracked open when in spa mode. Keeps the spa full while using, and does not require selecting any features when I'm done with the spa.

Are you trying to use the spillway feature, while you are sitting in the spa? That would not be ideal as mentioned before, because it will cool your spa down to your pool temp in a matter of a few minutes. If you are just wanting to 'top off' the spa, once done, all you need to do is set an egg timer on your spillway feature for 15 minutes or so. Then when you are done using the spa, turn off spa, select spillway, and walk away. After 15 minutes, the spillway feature will turn off, and your spa will be filled. It sounds as if you may be trying to use this in a manner which nobody envisioned in being used. Just trying to understand so maybe we can figure out a work around for you.

Thank you this has been very informative.
I think I need take your advice an open the pool suction just a small amount when running the spa, it think this will cure my OCD around the spa levels. As far as spillway use, I only use it to fill the spa back up after using the spa, to circulate the spa water with the pool as a daily schedule, or for an ambiance when guests are over.

Thank you for the insight on the controlling on one valve, that makes sense and hence why when in spa mode and switching over to spillway it does nothing (because the return valve is already energized).

 

[MyAZPool]

@Turbo1Ton is correct. Only one valve actuator can be assigned to a particular Feature Circuit.
But having said that, two or more Feature Circuits can be assigned to a Circuit Group (macro).
i.e.
Let's say you have Valve A, Valve B and Valve C all assigned to their respective Feature Circuits and all 3 Feature Circuits are embedded within a Circuit Group called say "ABC".
When you turn on "ABC", all 3 valves will move from their home position to the second position which was initially programmed within each valve.
When you turn off "ABC", all 3 valves will move back to their home position.

Of course Circuit Groups (macros) can be executed by schedules as well.

Thanks...
r.