Partial-drain acid wash?

[JulesTX]

Hi! This is my first time posting, although I’ve come here frequently to search for pool maintenance advice. I haven’t seen any posts on a partial-drain acid wash, and I have some questions. Does anyone have knowledge or experience related to this?

First some background. We had our pool remodeled in November. We went with a colored quartz. Although we do our own pool maintenance, we hired the recommended pool guy to do the startup. When all was said and done we weren’t happy with the finish. It was very blotchy in areas, particularly on the steps and especially around the toe tiles. The plaster company did an acid bath to try to remedy the situation. The spa now looks great, but the rest of the pool does not. The steps and platforms look worse, now with a greenish tint in the blotchy areas.

They are now recommending a partial-drain acid wash, where they will drain enough water to be able to acid wash the steps and platforms. The pool is about 4 ft deep near the steps, and 8ft at the deepest point.

I think my main question is, what about the remaining water? Will they have to neutralize it as they go? And when they’re finished acid washing, won’t there be a lot of plaster dust in the sitting water? And we’re supposed to fill it back up and have the filter filter it all out? Or should I expect them to drain out all of the water once they’re finished and before we re-fill?

Secondly, are there any considerations for the startup after we fill? From other posts on acid washing, I’ve gathered that we won’t have to do a normal new-plaster startup. Is this right? Should I just balance the water like I would normally do? Any particular order concerning CH?

Do we need to bypass the heater for a period of time?

Is daily or 2x daily brushing required, or was that just for the new-plaster startup? Can I / Should I vacuum during the startup?

If you’ve read this far, thank you!

 

[ajw22]

I haven’t seen any posts on a partial-drain acid wash, and I have some questions. Does anyone have knowledge or experience related to this?

You don't find posts about partial drains and acid washes because we discourage doing it. At a minimum it reduces the life of your palster. And contractors who didn't know what they were doing have damaged pools to where they needed to be replastered. @Dirk can point you to his experience.

They are now recommending a partial-drain acid wash, where they will drain enough water to be able to acid wash the steps and platforms. The pool is about 4 ft deep near the steps, and 8ft at the deepest point.

Drain the entire pool if you choose to let them do it. You don't want to try and fix the chemical soup they will create.

I think my main question is, what about the remaining water? Will they have to neutralize it as they go?

They should neutralize all water int he bottom of the pool with baking soda before they pump it out.

And when they’re finished acid washing, won’t there be a lot of plaster dust in the sitting water?

An acid wash does not create palster dust. The plaster should be in suspension in the water and pumped out.

And we’re supposed to fill it back up and have the filter filter it all out? Or should I expect them to drain out all of the water once they’re finished and before we re-fill?

Drain and re-fill.

Secondly, are there any considerations for the startup after we fill? From other posts on acid washing, I’ve gathered that we won’t have to do a normal new-plaster startup. Is this right?

Right.

Should I just balance the water like I would normally do?

Yup.

Any particular order concerning CH?

Nope. Get CYA and chlorine in the water first. Then you can tinker with the CH.

Do we need to bypass the heater for a period of time?

Not if you startup with a complete fill of clean water.

Is daily or 2x daily brushing required, or was that just for the new-plaster startup? Can I / Should I vacuum during the startup?

Proceed with your normal pool care.

 

[Dirk]

Don't!

Is the short version. I’ll have to come back for the long version, as I am jammed up today.

 

[JulesTX]

You don't find posts about partial drains and acid washes because we discourage doing it. At a minimum it reduces the life of your palster. And contractors who didn't know what they were doing have damaged pools to where they needed to be replastered. @Dirk can point you to his experience.



Drain the entire pool if you choose to let them do it. You don't want to try and fix the chemical soup they will create.



They should neutralize all water int he bottom of the pool with baking soda before they pump it out.



An acid wash does not create palster dust. The plaster should be in suspension in the water and pumped out.



Drain and re-fill.



Right.



Yup.



Nope. Get CYA and chlorine in the water first. Then you can tinker with the CH.



Not if you startup with a complete fill of clean water.



Proceed with your normal pool care.

Thank you very much! I appreciate your responses to my many questions.

 

[JulesTX]

Don't!

Is the short version. I’ll have to come back for the long version, as I am jammed up today.

I'm interested to hear the long version when you have a chance! I feel like we don't really have any other options. The brand new plaster looks old and tired and ugly. You would look at the spa and say, "Wow! The spa remodel looks great! Are you going to replaster the pool, as well?"

 

[wireform]

I'm not convinced the acid wash will bring you the results you desire and when all set and done you removed life from your plaster. When the pool is being used you won't know the difference in color but atleast you still have the quality left.

 

[JamesW]

Pictures?

Maybe a no drain acid wash (Zero alkalinity) or sulfamic acid followed by a drain and refill.

Do not drain unless it is safe to do so.

A zero alkalinity treatment can and will eat away the cement, so it is not recommended in general unless you are willing to trade a possibly better appearance for a rougher surface and a loss of plaster life.

Zero TA and/or sulfamic acid will damage any metals (Like lights, handrails etc.), so do not allow any metals to contact the water.

 

[Dirk]

I'm interested to hear the long version when you have a chance! I feel like we don't really have any other options. The brand new plaster looks old and tired and ugly. You would look at the spa and say, "Wow! The spa remodel looks great! Are you going to replaster the pool, as well?"

I have threads about it around here somewhere. Basically, I inherited a pool that was coated in calcium. The same company that caused the calcium build up (I later learned their complete lack of understanding of pool chemistry was at fault), offered to "fix it" with an acid wash. They drained the pool and blasted it with acid, then refilled it. The wash left my plaster, which was originally very smooth where there was no calcium, rough as sand paper at best, and pitted badly at worst.



When others here tell you an acid wash will remove some of your finish and leave it rough, this is the exaggerated version of what they mean.

Days later, the plaster started forming bubbles, which then "popped" and flaked off. That pic is of the side. At the bottom, where the acid collected, and they neglected to neutralize the acid, was way, way worse. Just a wasteland of ruined plaster. A year of battling with the contractor, just short of going to court, ended with them paying for a new finish. At first, they tried to tell me it was the plaster's fault! My pool was only about five years old at the time. That's all it took for their bad chemistry to ruin the plaster, and then their idiot worker to finish the destruction with acid.

By the way, after the wash, there was only very slight improvement in the original calcium problem. The wash, by no means, restored my pool to anything approaching attractive.

The problem was, the guy performing the wash had no idea how to do it correctly. He just blasted it on, and let it run down the walls to collect in the deep end. And that's the real rub, even someone that is really skilled at acid washing can't prevent what actually happens. Acid doesn't magically attack stains and blemishes while leaving your beautiful finish alone. No, it burns off a layer of that finish and as a "side effect" takes the stains with it. That's the big secret of an acid wash.

So, at best, you're left with a rougher finish, and some amount less finish. There is no way around that. At worst, well, you're left with much worse.

By allowing the wash, you are "agreeing" that the finish was not applied correctly in the first place, and allowing your guy to remove some of the finish you paid for to "start over." And by "less finish," I mean your finish will not last as long as it would have otherwise. But by the time you realize that, your finish warranty will be as gone as the contractor!

Some people do get decent results from an acid wash, but not one of them avoids the issue of diminished longevity.

A potentially better approach is mechanical abrading. Sanding, in essence. You still lose plaster, but less of it, and the sanding can be done only where and as much as needed, where acid washing blasts everything. Some guys will do a very "light" wash, to soften the plaster, and then mechanical abrading to fix the blemishes. That is highly skilled work that the average plaster guy or pool guy will not know how to do correctly.

But I gotta say, this notion of taking only some of the water out, and doing a "partial" acid wash, is the stupidest idea I've ever heard. I cannot fathom how that could possibly work. Even if they could somehow control the wash well enough under those conditions to get results, what are you going to be left with in that water?!? It's ridiculous, IMO. And the fact that they think they can make that work, to me, is a huge red flag. Again, that's just my instinct about it, based on only my limited experience. Just not seein' it.

The only real fix is the one I used: replace the finish. You'd insist on a different crew, the "A" team, and hope they get it right. Most general contractors have a stable of subs, and they know who their "A" team is, they just can't use them all the time because they have more work than their "A" team can handle. So they use the "B" and "C" teams when they have to. Maybe you got one of those.

Demanding a new finish is no easy task. He, of course, will refuse. And then you will be forced to not only try and make him, but you'll first have to prove a new finish is warranted. It took me a year of some of the worst stress I've ever faced to get mine done (sorry, can't sugarcoat that). IMO, he's looking for the easy way out. And he wants you to let him. Your first step, if I may, is to get the finish assessed by either a third-party expert, or the finish manufacturer, if there is one on the hook, or both. PebbleTec, for example, warrants their products and will send a guy to your pool to assess any problem (if you can twist their arm enough to do so). They may side with the installer, as there is a conflict of interest between the seller and installer of the finish. But that is one approach. A third-party is another, though they, too, might side with their industry brother. Or maybe your contractor is a stand up guy and will admit the finish is sub-par and redo it. It does happen.

Or let them do the wash on two conditions: they agree to refinish the pool if the wash doesn't work, and either way they discount their bill:
- zero for the wash,
- prorated by a large amount should the wash work (but you now have a shorter lifespan on the plaster),
- or a free new finish with a discount on the original bill for your time and trouble (loss of use of the pool and the mess that you'll have to re-endure).
- either way they pay for the water to refill the pool and the chemicals to start it up again.

I held my ground and got a new finish plus the water and chemicals. No "pain and suffering," I had to pay that with my stomach, for a year. My story about this spans several threads. Here's one:

It's over! I did it!! I WON!!!

Sorry, wasn't sure where to post this, but then thought it fitting to put it into the same forum in which I first started here at TFP. For those of you that have followed some of my threads, you've suffered my rants of the story that brought me to TFP. That of an inherited pool maintenance...

www.troublefreepool.com

Good luck. Weigh your options. Do what's best for you.

 

[JulesTX]

I have threads about it around here somewhere. Basically, I inherited a pool that was coated in calcium. The same company that caused the calcium build up (I later learned their complete lack of understanding of pool chemistry was at fault), offered to "fix it" with an acid wash. They drained the pool and blasted it with acid, then refilled it. The wash left my plaster, which was originally very smooth where there was no calcium, rough as sand paper at best, and pitted badly at worst.

View attachment 562151

When others here tell you an acid wash will remove some of your finish and leave it rough, this is the exaggerated version of what they mean.

Days later, the plaster started forming bubbles, which then "popped" and flaked off. That pic is of the side. At the bottom, where the acid collected, and they neglected to neutralize the acid, was way, way worse. Just a wasteland of ruined plaster. A year of battling with the contractor, just short of going to court, ended with them paying for a new finish. At first, they tried to tell me it was the plaster's fault! My pool was only about five years old at the time. That's all it took for their bad chemistry to ruin the plaster, and then their idiot worker to finish the destruction with acid.

By the way, after the wash, there was only very slight improvement in the original calcium problem. The wash, by no means, restored my pool to anything approaching attractive.

The problem was, the guy performing the wash had no idea how to do it correctly. He just blasted it on, and let it run down the walls to collect in the deep end. And that's the real rub, even someone that is really skilled at acid washing can't prevent what actually happens. Acid doesn't magically attack stains and blemishes while leaving your beautiful finish alone. No, it burns off a layer of that finish and as a "side effect" takes the stains with it. That's the big secret of an acid wash.

So, at best, you're left with a rougher finish, and some amount less finish. There is no way around that. At worst, well, you're left with much worse.

By allowing the wash, you are "agreeing" that the finish was not applied correctly in the first place, and allowing your guy to remove some of the finish you paid for to "start over." And by "less finish," I mean your finish will not last as long as it would have otherwise. But by the time you realize that, your finish warranty will be as gone as the contractor!

Some people do get decent results from an acid wash, but not one of them avoids the issue of diminished longevity.

A potentially better approach is mechanical abrading. Sanding, in essence. You still lose plaster, but less of it, and the sanding can be done only where and as much as needed, where acid washing blasts everything. Some guys will do a very "light" wash, to soften the plaster, and then mechanical abrading to fix the blemishes. That is highly skilled work that the average plaster guy or pool guy will not know how to do correctly.

But I gotta say, this notion of taking only some of the water out, and doing a "partial" acid wash, is the stupidest idea I've ever heard. I cannot fathom how that could possibly work. Even if they could somehow control the wash well enough under those conditions to get results, what are you going to be left with in that water?!? It's ridiculous, IMO. And the fact that they think they can make that work, to me, is a huge red flag. Again, that's just my instinct about it, based on only my limited experience. Just not seein' it.

The only real fix is the one I used: replace the finish. You'd insist on a different crew, the "A" team, and hope they get it right. Most general contractors have a stable of subs, and they know who their "A" team is, they just can't use them all the time because they have more work than their "A" team can handle. So they use the "B" and "C" teams when they have to. Maybe you got one of those.

Demanding a new finish is no easy task. He, of course, will refuse. And then you will be forced to not only try and make him, but you'll first have to prove a new finish is warranted. It took me a year of some of the worst stress I've ever faced to get mine done (sorry, can't sugarcoat that). IMO, he's looking for the easy way out. And he wants you to let him. Your first step, if I may, is to get the finish assessed by either a third-party expert, or the finish manufacturer, if there is one on the hook, or both. PebbleTec, for example, warrants their products and will send a guy to your pool to assess any problem (if you can twist their arm enough to do so). They may side with the installer, as there is a conflict of interest between the seller and installer of the finish. But that is one approach. A third-party is another, though they, too, might side with their industry brother. Or maybe your contractor is a stand up guy and will admit the finish is sub-par and redo it. It does happen.

Or let them do the wash on two conditions: they agree to refinish the pool if the wash doesn't work, and either way they discount their bill:
- zero for the wash,
- prorated by a large amount should the wash work (but you now have a shorter lifespan on the plaster),
- or a free new finish with a discount on the original bill for your time and trouble (loss of use of the pool and the mess that you'll have to re-endure).
- either way they pay for the water to refill the pool and the chemicals to start it up again.

I held my ground and got a new finish plus the water and chemicals. No "pain and suffering," I had to pay that with my stomach, for a year. My story about this spans several threads. Here's one:

It's over! I did it!! I WON!!!

Sorry, wasn't sure where to post this, but then thought it fitting to put it into the same forum in which I first started here at TFP. For those of you that have followed some of my threads, you've suffered my rants of the story that brought me to TFP. That of an inherited pool maintenance...

www.troublefreepool.com

Good luck. Weigh your options. Do what's best for you.

Ok, no acid wash! Our finish might have a sickening greenish tint to it, but it doesn't look like what you ended up with! Thanks for the warning! Can we hire you to fight on our behalf? ;-)

 

[Dirk]

Ok, no acid wash! Our finish might have a sickening greenish tint to it, but it doesn't look like what you ended up with! Thanks for the warning! Can we hire you to fight on our behalf? ;-)

Not a chance! But if you decide to take on the contractor, I'll share how I did it (though my advice is CA-specific, some of it might not apply in TX).

 

[JulesTX]

I'm a little embarrassed to post photos because they're nothing compared to some that I've seen on this site. As is often the case, it's hard to catch the true essence in a photo. But you can easily see the difference between the spa step (IMG_2554 if the name comes through), which looks a lovely blue, and the pool's deep end step (IMG_2558), which looks washed out and blotchy. They are about the same size and the same depth beneath the water. Toe tiles are spaced about 6in apart for reference. On the steps, you can see that the outer edges and inner rolls (not sure what to call that part) are very light. And the platform steps have a very blotchy, uneven look. If this were a 20 year old pool, I'd think it looks pretty good. But it's a very expense brand new finish, and we feel like we didn't get what we paid for. The finish in the spa is what we expected. We know it's possible because the spa looks great.

 

[ajw22]

I would not acid wash based on what your pics show.

 

[JamesW]

It does not look too bad.

I would not acid wash.

It might be iron.

Drop a vitamin C tablet on a spot to see if anything happens.

Maybe consider a Jack's #2 THE COPPER & SCALE STUFF followed by a drain and refill if it is safe to drain and refill.

STAIN SOLUTION #2 – THE COPPER & SCALE STUFF

STAIN SOLUTION #2 – The Copper & Scale Stuff | Jacks Magic

jacksmagic.com

Does your fill water have iron?

 

[Dirk]

If this were a 20 year old pool, I'd think it looks pretty good. But it's a very expense brand new finish, and we feel like we didn't get what we paid for.

As you point out, it's hard to determine anything definitely from a photo, but based on what I'm looking at, I think your statement is accurate.

It doesn't look like a brand new pool, for sure. For reference, mine is seven years old and looks better than that. Way better. I just ran out to look. If I stare at it long enough, I can kinda imagine some blotchiness. But I can't even be certain. My steps look perfectly even in color. There is no difference in color between steps, and the color of the edges of the steps look exactly like the middle of the step. And my finish is darker than yours, which makes it even more prone to blotches and discolorations.

I don't want to encourage/discourage you one way or another, I'm just saying that what you're seeing, and your disappointment, are not in your imagination. You didn't get a good finish, and the contractor being willing to acid wash it is basically admitting to that. Though I share the opinion of James and Allen, don't acid wash it. It'll more likely make things worse than better.

Tough call. You might decide to live with it, but you should at least get a rebate. Save that money for the next finish. All my previous comments about the manufacturer and the third-party assessment stand. You really need someone on site to give you a valid opinion. We can only do so much from photos.

 

[Dirk]

My finish is as old at I've been a member here. I can't really get you a good photo at the moment. The "blotches" out in the shallow end are not in my finish, it's a little windy just now and those are from the sun refracting through the wavelets. But look at my top step. The "faux blotches" increase as the water gets deeper, that's the wavelets. The plaster color is dead even throughout my steps. They all look like my top step in this photo. At least, what I can see (which is all that matters, after all).

And that's a consideration: what are you, or anyone else, actually going to see? How often will your pool be still enough to notice any of your finish? If mine was blotchy, would it matter? It looks blotchy anyway! This comes down to your personality as much as anything else. If this is going to bug you, then it's bad. If you can learn to live with it, then it's fine. I can probably accurately predict that no guest of yours is going to be whispering behind your back about your blotchy discolored finish. They won't ever even notice. It's a pool, and they're having fun. That's all that will matter to them. So... what matters to you?



I tried to capture some finish in the shadow. See any blotches? There's the reflection of the tree. That looks like blotches, too! Again, do you have to really try to see flaws in your finish, or does it overall look good? Only you can answer that.

 

[ajw22]

No two finishes are alike. Plaster is mixed on the job site and hand applied. Every pool is a custom unique piece of art. You cannot compare two pools and expect them to be the same. If they do it is coincidence.

 

[JulesTX]

Pictures?

Maybe a no drain acid wash (Zero alkalinity) or sulfamic acid followed by a drain and refill.

Do not drain unless it is safe to do so.

A zero alkalinity treatment can and will eat away the cement, so it is not recommended in general unless you are willing to trade a possibly better appearance for a rougher surface and a loss of plaster life.

Zero TA and/or sulfamic acid will damage any metals (Like lights, handrails etc.), so do not allow any metals to contact the water.

Thanks for the reminders about the safety of draining and also the damage to metal fixtures. I'll make sure the contractor considers.

 

[JulesTX]

My finish is as old at I've been a member here. I can't really get you a good photo at the moment. The "blotches" out in the shallow end are not in my finish, it's a little windy just now and those are from the sun refracting through the wavelets. But look at my top step. The "faux blotches" increase as the water gets deeper, that's the wavelets. The plaster color is dead even throughout my steps. They all look like my top step in this photo. At least, what I can see (which is all that matters, after all).

And that's a consideration: what are you, or anyone else, actually going to see? How often will your pool be still enough to notice any of your finish? If mine was blotchy, would it matter? It looks blotchy anyway! This comes down to your personality as much as anything else. If this is going to bug you, then it's bad. If you can learn to live with it, then it's fine. I can probably accurately predict that no guest of yours is going to be whispering behind your back about your blotchy discolored finish. They won't ever even notice. It's a pool, and they're having fun. That's all that will matter to them. So... what matters to you?

View attachment 562221

I tried to capture some finish in the shadow. See any blotches? There's the reflection of the tree. That looks like blotches, too! Again, do you have to really try to see flaws in your finish, or does it overall look good? Only you can answer that.

That looks very nice! Is it quartz or pebbletec? I'm sure you're right that no guest is going to whisper behind our backs about the plaster. So it's more about our own enjoyment of it. You know that feeling when you've gotten your pool nicely vacuumed, and the water is crystal clear, and you just admire it for a moment? With the current finish, even at its best it looks like the water is a sickly green. It will definitely be hard for me to live with that. But maybe I'll just have to....

 

[JamesW]

Try the vitamin C.

 

[JulesTX]

It does not look too bad.

I would not acid wash.

It might be iron.

Drop a vitamin C tablet on a spot to see if anything happens.

Maybe consider a Jack's #2 THE COPPER & SCALE STUFF followed by a drain and refill if it is safe to drain and refill.

STAIN SOLUTION #2 – THE COPPER & SCALE STUFF

STAIN SOLUTION #2 – The Copper & Scale Stuff | Jacks Magic

jacksmagic.com

Does your fill water have iron?

The plaster guy did consider metals. He used a sequestering agent to try to remedy. No change. The funny thing is, when they did an acid bath as the first remedy the spa came out looking great. The spa and pool were bathed separately because the pump was off, so they were independent bodies of water. The plaster guy neutralized the spa on the Friday but left the pool "bathing" until Monday. (He said he didn't use enough acid so he wanted to leave it longer.) The pool did start looking better, but by Sunday it started looking green in the blotchy areas. The water at that point was green from all the pollen, debris and algae forming, having no filtration and no chlorine for so many days. But once they neutralized it and I got the water clear, the steps still had that greenish tinge. I would have thought that if there was a strong concentration of metals in the fill water, the spa would have the same problem. Anyway, I'll look up those copper stain products.