Paramount Infloor Cleaner Not Getting Required PSI

[Knaegeli]

Need some advice regarding pumps/plumbing with an in-floor cleaning system. Pool was completed September of last year, and I don't like how they have the plumbing set up.

Our pool is ~900 sqft and 33,000 gallons. We have 2 Paramount ParaskimV venturi skimmers and the Paramount PV3 in-floor automatic cleaner. Pump is a Jandy ePump 2.2. Filter is a Jandy CL 580 cartridge.

Since opening the pool a few weeks ago, I've notice that the in-floor has some dead spots that don't get clean and just accumulate dirt. That got me looking at the manuals and searching for answers.

The pressure gauge on the in-floor is showing ~10 psi when I have the pump running at max and 100% of flow directed to the in-floor. That's maximum pressure I can get to the in floor. Per the manual and a conversation with Paramount this should be 17-22 psi. I'm showing 20 PSI at the cartridge filter, but that doesn't maintain all the way to the in-floor returns valve.

The second issue I have is they builder didn't connect suction to the skimmers. I know they are designed to run venturi only, but feel like they would be more effective if they had the suction connected as well. We weren't presented with this as an option during construction so didn't know what we were missing until it was too late. Additionally, since suction isn't connected to the skimmers, they aren't running if I'm maximizing pressure to the in-floor and I have no way to vacuum the pool if I wanted to.

I'm hoping there is a way to connect the suction to the skimmers without too much disruption. Is this even a possibility at this point?

What other alternatives are there to increase pressure on the in-floor?

What other information do you need to make recommendations??

I'm going to give the builder a call, but given how the system they just built is functioning, I don't have a ton of faith in them. Looking to arm myself with your collective wisdom so I can have a better discussion with them on how to fix the issues.

 

[mknauss]

Welcome to the forum.
Let's notify some folks that may be able to give you some advice.
@bradgray @proavia @SacPoolPros

 

[ajw22]

Welcome to TFP.

Post pics of your equipment pad.

Post pics of your pool and skimmer area and deck.

Can pipes be easily trenched from your equipment pad to the skimmers?

What model filter do you have and what is the filter pressure PSI?

 

[proavia]

Welcome to TFP!

Also, post pics of the water distribution valve for the IFCS.

Under the lid of the water valve, there may be a filter screen that it clogged. If it's clogged, the pressure inside water valve will be diminished.

Fill out your signature with your pool, pool equipment (including manufacturers and model numbers) and test kit info.
This assists us in providing help specific to your pool without having to ask each time.

https://www.troublefreepool.com/account/signature

 

[Toxophilite]

I know they are designed to run venturi only, but feel like they would be more effective if they had the suction connected as well. We weren't presented with this as an option during construction so didn't know what we were missing until it was too late. Additionally, since suction isn't connected to the skimmers, they aren't running if I'm maximizing pressure to the in-floor and I have no way to vacuum the pool if I wanted to.

Not sure about your info on that. There's no mention of such in the installation manual, and, all depicted installations show it needs be run with pool suction. Venturi is to give it extra flow, not an optional method without suction.
"Paraskim will take up to 100 gpm over the weir without cavitation. 60 gpm with 2" direct suction, 90 gpm with immediate transition up to 2½" pipe. Plus venturi generated flow."

Manual: https://www.1paramount.com/downloads/manuals/paraskim/ParaSkimVenturiSkimmer.pdf

 

[Knaegeli]

Not sure about your info on that. There's no mention of such in the installation manual, and, all depicted installations show it needs be run with pool suction. Venturi is to give it extra flow, not an optional method without suction.
"Paraskim will take up to 100 gpm over the weir without cavitation. 60 gpm with 2" direct suction, 90 gpm with immediate transition up to 2½" pipe. Plus venturi generated flow."

Manual: https://www.1paramount.com/downloads/manuals/paraskim/ParaSkimVenturiSkimmer.pdf

See page 6 of the pdf you linked. 2. shows the suction line as Optional using only the return venturi line to run the skimmer.

 

[Knaegeli]

Equipment pad and relation to pool

 

[Knaegeli]

Pool and in-floor valves. Pardon the yard mess, getting ready to expand the patio, but want to get this plumbing issue resolved first.

 

[Toxophilite]

See page 6 of the pdf you linked. 2. shows the suction line as Optional using only the return venturi line to run the skimmer.

It would be ludicrous for a PB on new install to not hook up suction to the skimmer. At best, venturi are an aide. I can see "if not used" as an install having to solely rely on venturi return or some secondary need, but they are not optimal primary skimmers with just venturi.

 

[Knaegeli]

It would be ludicrous for a PB on new install to not hook up suction to the skimmer. At best, venturi are an aide. I can see "if not used" as an install having to solely rely on venturi return or some secondary need, but they are not optimal primary skimmers with just venturi.

I don't disagree. Yet that's how my pool builder hooked them up. I'm understanding now how poor a decision that was.

 

[proavia]

In the second picture of post #7 showing the return plumbing.
To what do each of those pipes run to after the inline chlorinator?

Are you running the IFCS with the return valves set as shown in that pic?
It's possible that setting those valves to send all water to the IFCS will allow the IFCS to work better.

Sadly, your Paramount UV system isn't really doing much, except maybe eating up a little FC and cause a little extra restriction in the return line.
That big orange fire ball in the sky provides more than enough UV - and for free.

I am not familiar with the Jandy heater, but plumbing in a heater bypass would help relieve the restriction the heater is most likely causing.

Heater Bypass - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

The inline puck feeder will eventually leak. If you need to use pucks, a puck floater is a better option. And if you are going to put in a heater bypass, just eliminate the inline puck feeder.

 

[Knaegeli]

In the second picture of post #7 showing the return plumbing.
To what do each of those pipes run to after the inline chlorinator?

Yes. Solo pipe to the right is IFCS.
First valve to the left diverts to the bubblers on the ledge
Valve and 2 pipes on the far left are the returns to the skimmers running the venturi.

Are you running the IFCS with the return valves set as shown in that pic?
It's possible that setting those valves to send all water to the IFCS will allow the IFCS to work better.

For a few hours in the afternoon, I kick the RPM on the pump up and turn the valve so all water is going to the IFCS. At 3250 RPM and 100% to the IFCS, I still only get ~10 psi at the IFCS valves. And since they didn't plumb suction to the skimmers, those shut down too because there's nothing going to the venturis.

For the majority of the day I leave it ~75% running towards the skimmers and 25% to the IFCS. I want to add a valve actuator to this one so I don't have to go out and manually turn this one.

Sadly, your Paramount UV system isn't really doing much, except maybe eating up a little FC and cause a little extra restriction in the return line.
That big orange fire ball in the sky provides more than enough UV - and for free.

I've been curious how much the UV system really does. I keep detailed records on (near) daily testing and chemicals added. At some point I'm going to unplug the UV for an extended period. In theory, this should result in more bleach going into the pool.. We will see.

I am not familiar with the Jandy heater, but plumbing in a heater bypass would help relieve the restriction the heater is most likely causing.

Heater Bypass - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

I was thinking the same as I've been trying to figure this out. Turns out the heater has a bypass built in - the Jandy VersaFlo bypass. So I don't need to add one.

The inline puck feeder will eventually leak. If you need to use pucks, a puck floater is a better option. And if you are going to put in a heater bypass, just eliminate the inline puck feeder.

Puck feeder is worthless. I used it until I got CYA up to ~45. Since then, I don't do anything to add CYA to the pool and only add liquid chlorine. I was going to do just as you recommend when I thought I needed to add a heater bypass. But now I just need to remove the puck feeder.

 

[proavia]

I'm sorry, but I think your pool builder is an idiot for not installing suction lines for each skimmer back to the pad - especially with an IFCS.
If the skimmers had suction lines (as they should have, regardless of what the manufacturer states), you could send a little return flow to each skimmer to aid in skimming (this would help most at lower RPMs) - or totally stop return flow to the skimmers and rely only on suction for skimmer function.

Both skimmers need a dedicated suction line back to the pad - and valves on each line (plus one on the main drain line) so you can balance them out or totally shut them off.
The venturi function of the skimmer is a secondary way to increase flow into the skimmers - not the primary way.

That pressure at the water valve still seems low even when running all return water to the IFCS at 3250rpm.
Many IFCS have a dead spot or two. And the lower the pump rpm, the larger the dead spot(s).

Have you determined if the built-in bypass will bypass 100% of the water flow when the heater isn't in operation, or is it just there to relieve excess pressure from trying to flow thru the heater?
Chances are it doesn't bypass 100% of the water. And if the heater started leak or you wanted to take it out of the loop for other reasons, you would need an external bypass anyway.

What is the PVC line sticking up just off the patio near the skimmer?
Is that another of the same at the far end of the pool near the other skimmer?

Post a pic of the interior of the skimmer with the basket removed - with the camera slightly off center so we can see a bit around the venturi pipe.

 

[Knaegeli]

I'm sorry, but I think your pool builder is an idiot for not installing suction lines for each skimmer back to the pad - especially with an IFCS.

100% agree. Main reason I'm here trying to arm myself with best solution before I go back to them on fixing it (hopefully).

If the skimmers had suction lines (as they should have, regardless of what the manufacturer states), you could send a little return flow to each skimmer to aid in skimming (this would help most at lower RPMs) - or totally stop return flow to the skimmers and rely only on suction for skimmer function.

Both skimmers need a dedicated suction line back to the pad - and valves on each line (plus one on the main drain line) so you can balance them out or totally shut them off.
The venturi function of the skimmer is a secondary way to increase flow into the skimmers - not the primary way.

Yeah. Trying to figure out if it's possible to add a suction line to the skimmers. I think this is the biggest issue.

That pressure at the water valve still seems low even when running all return water to the IFCS at 3250rpm.
Many IFCS have a dead spot or two. And the lower the pump rpm, the larger the dead spot(s).

Have you determined if the built-in bypass will bypass 100% of the water flow when the heater isn't in operation, or is it just there to relieve excess pressure from trying to flow thru the heater?
Chances are it doesn't bypass 100% of the water. And if the heater started leak or you wanted to take it out of the loop for other reasons, you would need an external bypass anyway.

Makes sense. I think it would be very easy to add a bypass, especially since the puck feeder needs to come out anyway.

What is the PVC line sticking up just off the patio near the skimmer?
Is that another of the same at the far end of the pool near the other skimmer?

Lawn irrigation. Those will be coming out when we do the patio expansion.

Post a pic of the interior of the skimmer with the basket removed - with the camera slightly off center so we can see a bit around the venturi pipe.

Will get this tomorrow.

 

[proavia]

I think the only real solution will involve removing sections of decking to be able to dig down under the skimmer to install the suction lines.
I'm not talking about saw cutting a small section out. The entire section between control joints should be removed. If that isn't done, it will detract from the finish look you have now.
They should be home run to the pad and have valves for both skimmers and the main drain.
Any chance you have pics of the build showing plumbing around/near the skimmers.

You may also want to contact Paramount about the pressures needed at the water valves. I bet they have a minimum spec.
Better to have the info before the PB comes out.

 

[bradgray]

I don't have much to add that hasn't been said. I'll just agree with and restate some points.

• I think you'll continue to remain frustrated without suction at your skimmers. You may risk your system cleaning a stratified layer of water over and over with only a MD, even with some help from convection of the returns.
• The idea of a venturi-only skimmer is wild. That top layer is where most of the contamination resides, and you're better off getting that not just off the surface, but sucked totally out of the main body and trapped in the filter medium. Especially the tiny stuff like gnats and oils.
• I dislike anything that restricts flow, especially when they arguably add value. Personally believe UV (and Ozone) are about equivalent to farting into the wind. This though is an area I'll admit I'm not an expert - my experience has simply been further hassle with no measurable gain. I deal with extreme-use pools though so I'm not their target user.
• Jandy bypass is supposed to dam flow to the exchanger when there isn't a call for heat. But they seem to bang around a lot when there is a call during different flow rates so the few I have, I expect to fail early. I'd plumb a real bypass if you're interested in their utility.
• Tab feeders get a lot of hate because they house the devil. But I think a day may come when you find it's evil is the lesser. If you have to go away for a weekend in, say, August, you may be glad you kept it and add a tab or two. I'd rather incur some extra CYA than tackle a green pool. If you're keeping an eye on CYA, you're not going to be anywhere near the levels most lazy pools run at.
• If I'm you, and I follow Proavia's advice and dig up the skimmers and add suctions, I'd seriously consider giving my main drains to a dedicated cleaner pump with a small 100 sqft filter. Then use your current main pump and filter for the skimmers. The vast, vast majority of IFC systems in my area use dedicated pumps run off the equalizer lines in the skimmer or wall drains. I do not like the concessions you have to make to run an IFC off the filter pump.

It's a beautiful pool. Good luck talking to your PB!

 

[elwood58]

Just for the record, I have Venturi Skimmers (2) on my pool. Both are plumbed for Suction operation as well. For the past 6 years I have only used them in Venturi mode, with excellent results. I have only used them in Suction mode to test them out.

 

[Toxophilite]

@elwood58 Curious, at what speed do you run your pump circulation. I had found with mine that at low speed circulation, could barely tell water moving over skimmer with venturi only. So, kinda figured that the main benefit of venturi was to aid my suction when on low, 1 + anything is better than 1. Since playing with, I just leave off the venturi. I don't and won't need to run any high speed for regular operation, so really don't know how it works in that mode. Also, even with a skimmer basket and basket net I still have to clean out my pump basket, and I'm sure finer stuff makes it to my filter, so my final thought was to have all skimmer water go back to pad.