Our Swamp

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Looks the same. Have a vinyl liner and it seemed to happen overnight.
 
Oops, didn't read far enough back up the thread. No, low PH usually does not cause liner fading. Low PH can cause liners to become brittle. Liner fading is usually cause by chlorine levels too far above shock level for your CYA, Chlorine CYA Chart.
 
pooldv said:
Oops, didn't read far enough back up the thread. No, low PH usually does not cause liner fading. Low PH can cause liners to become brittle. Liner fading is usually cause by chlorine levels too far above shock level for your CYA, Chlorine CYA Chart.
Click to expand...
That is very strange. My FC levels have been between 10 and 12, according to chart it should be 12. I bump it up to 13-15 overnight (only the last 2 or 3 nights) because it drops so much by morning. Guess I will have to let it drop and use 3-4 gals in the mornings to get it back up. Won't that cause my SLAM to take longer or backtrack?

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That is very odd. If the testing of CYA is accurate, the stabilizer should protect the liner from the effects of chlorine up to the SLAM level with no problems whatsoever. I'll take a look back in your posts to see when the last time the CYA was checked and what it was.
 
So going back .. on 29 Apr you stated you received your test kit. But on 3 May you said you were borrowing a friend's Q700. You started to notice fading around 6 May. Yesterday you confirmed you are still using the Q700. I have a concern about the reliability of that test kit. We literally see thousands of vinyl pool each year on TFP that not only use regular bleach, but also increase to SLAM levels well above what you are using for a significant amount of time and never have such a problem unless one of the test results is off. In your case, I'm very concerned about the reliability of your CYA reading. If the CYA is much lower than 30 like you think, your liner has very little protection from the chlorine. If the FC is actually higher (and the CYA is low) it only magnifies things. That might also explain why your water is stuck in a brown state as opposed to actually transitioning more to a white/clearer condition. I would feel a lot better if you had test results from a TF-100 or Taylor K-2006.
 
Could you check your CYA again, it looks like your CYA has dropped and that is making your SLAM FC lower

It is overcast outside right now but when the sun comes out, you want bright light at your back..

I read earlier in your post you said 1 gallon of 10% raised your FC 3, is it still raising it like that, I am wondering if your FC is raising more than 3 now... with a lower CYA and your FC raising more than it was could explain what happened

**** I also read you received your test kit and thought you were testing with the TF100, the colorQ is just not as precise as the TF100/K-2006, that is why we recommend them.. Could you please test with the TF100, the results will tell us what is going on.
 
They really do know what they are talking about, and really do rely on accurate test data. There is no shame in not having a test kit they recommend, but please specify the kit used to obtain the results so they know how much they can trust it before advising. If you do get a kit that they suggest, be sure to learn how to use it! It's not your standard 5 drop and shake kit. All the kits that suggest use the professional and health department mandated tests. Why? Because that is the only true way to know what's really happening under the waterline.

If you wish to be super prepared for your new testkit you can read the test kit directions and extended directionsand/watch the videos.
 

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Anyone have any suggestion on how I can keep my FC up yet keep my liner from further fading?
Click to expand...

Do you know how old the liner is...eg can you guess via what year they installed the pool?

At TFP-recommended levels, which are way more conservative that what pool techs or pool stores often have folks dumping in, that "shouldn't" happen. People with mustard algae, for example, regularly slam at higher levels than your ratio.

However, there are a few golden rules:

1. Pump must be running to keep water moving (but you're slamming, ergo, running pump 24/7, right?)
2. Chlorine added slowly in pencil thin stream in front of a return to disburse same
3. Cya level must be known (accurately as possible via tft100 or Taylor k2006) and in correct ratio to FC

I am a bit concerned about your initial post, where you mentioned that "cya was all over the place" -- it shouldn't change at all.

Once we get tha squared away definitively, I will say that if your liner is really old and likely to degrade between sun and FC, your other option to minimize further wear to get a season out of it would be to do a water change with a trash pump (carefully) and using a big tarp, add fresh water while pumping off the crud water. You will still have to slam a bit when done, but you'll be sending less time at higher FC values.

There is a current poster who just did this rare "sheet method" and who may have some idea on it to do it safely. Here's the thread: New User - Doing first drain - What do I need to know? - Page 4
 
Also, because your swamp has particles in the water that can mimic CYA in these visual tests, some people filter their swamp water through a coffee filter (okay well it took me like 4 filters because I was impatient) and then CYA test that water. I'd suggest that.

If you are using CYA as tested by a pool store - please tell us. If you are using a CYA test done indoors, please mention it. We just really need to know what we're dealing with. The Taylor CYA test that both the k2006 and tft100 kits use requires you do their tests a very specific way and this site links to very detailed instructions and even pictures and video. If you do it exactly that way, and never let your FC drop to zero, and do a successful SLAM, then the only things that change CYA are pool overflows, backwashes, drains, and splash outs. But - what the CYA level truly is determines the FC levels suggested.
 
I am sorry for any confusion. I had said that I received my test kit and meant to say a test kit. I had explained later that due to monetary issues I borrowed one from a friend and that I would be purchasing a TF100, but due to our hot water heater springing a leak, and having to purchase a new one and run new plumbing lines because they don't make them the same size as our old one anymore, I don't really have the extra money right now and have been continuing with my borrowed tester. Sorry kind of went off track there for a sec. I took a sample of water and tested it with the kit I have and also took the same sample to the local pool store. The readings were almost identical, they only differed by a hundredth or two.

We have been getting a lot of rain so we have been draining almost every day. But I have been checking the CYA and it has been between 29 and 32. I was under the impression as it dissolves the numbers would fluctuate a bit. I guess I am wrong?
 
Swampwoman said:
Do you know how old the liner is...eg can you guess via what year they installed the pool? I believe the liner is at least 20 years old if not older. Spoke with a neighbor when we first moved in. They could not remember if it was installed when the house was built or after but she knew it had been there the 20 years she knew the old owners. If it was put in when the house was built it is closer to 36 years old.

At TFP-recommended levels, which are way more conservative that what pool techs or pool stores often have folks dumping in, that "shouldn't" happen. People with mustard algae, for example, regularly slam at higher levels than your ratio.

However, there are a few golden rules:

1. Pump must be running to keep water moving (but you're slamming, ergo, running pump 24/7, right?) Yes, 24/7.
2. Chlorine added slowly in pencil thin stream in front of a return to disburse same I have been pouring the bleach right in front of one of the jets in the deep end.
3. Cya level must be known (accurately as possible via tft100 or Taylor k2006) and in correct ratio to FC

I am a bit concerned about your initial post, where you mentioned that "cya was all over the place" -- it shouldn't change at all I did not understand either then decided as it was dissolving the numbers would fluctuate. I will give you an example, over the last 4 days. Day 1 CYA was at a 30, Day 2 at 32, Day 3 at 32 and today it was back to 30. I test once in the morning and once in the evening. I have no idea as I have put it in a sock in the skimmer like suggested and was squeezing it as suggested. I assumed at one point more had dissolved at once to bring it up so high overnight. I'm completely lost on that part. Could it be all the rain we are getting and the fact that we have been having to drain almost everyday?

Once we get tha squared away definitively, I will say that if your liner is really old and likely to degrade between sun and FC, your other option to minimize further wear to get a season out of it would be to do a water change with a trash pump (carefully) and using a big tarp, add fresh water while pumping off the crud water. You will still have to slam a bit when done, but you'll be sending less time at higher FC values. We noticed that the liner is fading more in the deep end than in the shallow end. Your reply made me think and since we had some good sun we have verified that the deep end gets way more sun for longer period of time than the shallow end. So now I am convinced that is the most likely reason for the fading, the age and sun and FC not just FC and CYA levels. Just a theory but it fits well. My husband suggested doing a series of drains and refills. We have put a good 50+ gallons of bleach into the pool since starting the SLAM process, without getting much of a change. I will admit it is more green than brown the last 2 days but my husband is assuming that is all the rain water and draining. I mean it has been brimming with water after the rains and we have to drain a good foot out to get it half way down the skimmer.

There is a current poster who just did this rare "sheet method" and who may have some idea on it to do it safely. Here's the thread: New User - Doing first drain - What do I need to know? - Page 4
Click to expand...
Thanks I will check that out.

- - - Updated - - -

BattleOfYakima said:
Also, because your swamp has particles in the water that can mimic CYA in these visual tests, some people filter their swamp water through a coffee filter (okay well it took me like 4 filters because I was impatient) and then CYA test that water. I'd suggest that.

If you are using CYA as tested by a pool store - please tell us. If you are using a CYA test done indoors, please mention it. We just really need to know what we're dealing with. The Taylor CYA test that both the k2006 and tft100 kits use requires you do their tests a very specific way and this site links to very detailed instructions and even pictures and video. If you do it exactly that way, and never let your FC drop to zero, and do a successful SLAM, then the only things that change CYA are pool overflows, backwashes, drains, and splash outs. But - what the CYA level truly is determines the FC levels suggested.
Click to expand...

We test indoors. And we did take a sample to the pool store just to double check the numbers as because of the suggestions I was afraid the kit I'm using might not be very good. They were pretty dead on though, only about a 100th or so of difference between our numbers and pool store numbers.
 
The number difference between our tester and the pool store. Sample taken in the morning before adding any additional bleach.
Us:
FC 10.26
CYA 30.16

Pool Store:
FC 10.17
CYA 29.91

As I have said I have 0 experience with pools and pool stores. They took my sample and came back with numbers. If something else is going on I am at a total loss as to what it could be. We are still pulling a lot out of the deep end. The shallow end is finally done, hopefully, as we can't see the bottom we can only assume based on the last couple days of not getting anything with the leaf rake or leaf gulper.
 
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Those readings seem pretty consistent with each other and since you put the cya in yourself, I'm more confident.

With that said, 20 years is outstanding in terms of liner life, and she seems to be holding water well, so you should be able to enjoy your new pool and get by a little longer.

When you have a bit more cash on hand if the fading bugs you, you can buy a strip that covers the old "waterline" pattern.

I looked closely at your first pics and actually, blown up, could see the beginning of fade in the middle of the decorative strip before you began, so I'm betting its an age combo. The good news is the style of pattern below the waterline band is the type that hides fading real well.

So let us know how you decide to proceed. For the Slam approach to work for you, and to work efficiently so you can get back to normal levels, it does need to be at the level dictated by the FC:cya chart.

A series of drains, because of water mixing, won't have you entirely avoid a slam, but in this case, may reduce the length of time the old liner is exposed to slam-level FCs. Let us know which way you ultimately go.

For future reference, here's an example of the borders you can apply to cover a faded waterline on an old liner that otherwise won't quit ;)

It runs in the neighborhood of $2.40-4.00 per linear foot.
Pool Borders Inc.
 
Swampwoman said:
Those readings seem pretty consistent with each other and since you put the cya in yourself, I'm more confident.

With that said, 20 years is outstanding in terms of liner life, and she seems to be holding water well, so you should be able to enjoy your new pool and get by a little longer.

When you have a bit more cash on hand if the fading bugs you, you can buy a strip that covers the old "waterline" pattern.

I looked closely at your first pics and actually, blown up, could see the beginning of fade in the middle of the decorative strip before you began, so I'm betting its an age combo. The good news is the style of pattern below the waterline band is the type that hides fading real well.

So let us know how you decide to proceed. For the Slam approach to work for you, and to work efficiently so you can get back to normal levels, it does need to be at the level dictated by the FC:cya chart.

A series of drains, because of water mixing, won't have you entirely avoid a slam, but in this case, may reduce the length of time the old liner is exposed to slam-level FCs. Let us know which way you ultimately go.

For future reference, here's an example of the borders you can apply to cover a faded waterline on an old liner that otherwise won't quit ;)

It runs in the neighborhood of $2.40-4.00 per linear foot.
Pool Borders Inc.
Click to expand...

We have decided to try one more week of the SLAMing process we have been doing and if no results we will do a partial drain and refill. If we end up draining we will vacuum to waste and try to get out all the debris from the deep end as well. Hopefully killing 2 birds with 1 stone.
 
Gotcha. I know you've been at this a while. You're heading into the weekend and perhaps that means you can double down a bit on the pool.

I will tell you it took my swamp 12 days in April of 2012, but some of that included stalls and being out of town, and the last several days was really all about filtering...I wasn't actually loosing much chlorine.

The thing I found was that a) you really had to keep getting debris out...eg leaf rake dredging even before trying to vacuum to waste and b) that you really had to "maintain" the slam value or go backwards.

By that, I mean, if I woke up to 10 instead of 12, it meant I'd spent the night NOT at "kill zone." Which in a swamp, really meant going backwards. I feel this drags out the process.

I am just going to tell you what worked in my case, but realize since you've had fading and you have a kit I don't personally know you will choose your own comfort zone/risk level and that your mileage may vary ;)

In my case, my pool was in a very high water table (draining risked the integrity of the pool) and to even do the sheet method would have meant trucking in two truckloads of water at least 1,000 extra and we wouldn't have been able to match the trash pump/fill rates. (Im on an old well with high metals.)

So I really really dialed it in the first week in that after monitoring it super closely on the weekend, I'd come home at lunch, test the FC, and dose high enough to be at slam value still by supper time.

That often meant dosing a little closer to the mustard shock/slam value in Pool Math for my cya...eg if the target was 12 I might go as high as 16 to land back at 12.

Here is the approximately sequential visual log of color change you can expect if the slam is maintained and your filter is operating correctly and you've hand raked the majority of debris out.

Hope that hels give you some kind of guideline. The water was cold, which helped insofar as keeping ahead of the algae, so that's a variable that might be different in your case. After a weekend of unrelenting maintaining slam value, you'll also have a sense how long it takes to drop, which should help you work out a weekday schedule.

Post back with examples if you like.
And on getting the crud off the bottom, when my back got too sore using the leaf rake, I used this Leaf Gulper attached to a hose...it helped: Amazon.com : Universal Leaf Gulper Pool Vacuum : Swimming Pool Pressure Cleaners : Patio, Lawn Garden

Cheers to clear, one way or the other:
image.jpg

PS...one more thought...if you were to rent a trash pump from somewhere like harbor freight this weekend, you could pump off the worst of the bottom and just refill/top up the water. That would likely speed things up.
 
Trash pump is the super powerful, super fast way!

I was cheap and didn't want to rent one, so I did a siphon vacuum. Attach the vac hose to the vac head and either hold the other end to the return to flush the air out, or just slowly push the hose underwater a foot at a time with a light shake to get the air out of the ridges too. Once it is full, keep both ends under water, pull the middle of the hose to wall and pull a loop out over the wall and let it hang/sit on the ground, then pull the non-vac head attached end to the wall, cover it with your hand, and swiftly, with eyes closed or wearing glasses, raise the end (covered with hand) over wall and back down under the waterline, uncovering your hand. The water should gush out fast! Keep that end under the waterline, push the loop back into the pool, and then vaccum as usual! It will pump all the nasty from the bottom of the pool straight to your lawn (which loves all that stuff! Here is a video of me doing my very last siphon vac. Sorry I didn't shoot video of the first three. I waited 2 hours between sessions so it could resettle. My first three had lots of brown and super dark green sludge water, and infinite leaves and pine needles. As you move the head, when it comes out dark, stay there until it runs clear or nearly clear, then move a bit. You'll figure out what works best for you, especially if you can see the water coming out of the hose as you vac. In my case only the bottom inches were gross, and all the rest of the water was really pretty clear in comparison. I'm glad I did this. I ended up pumping out about 2 feet of water and it went from brown to dark green to green, then I refilled with water and SLAMed and now I'm blue and only a little murky after 4 days! Used less than 10 gallons of 10% shock/bleach total so far! Saved a fortune! Glad my water prices are cheap here!
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=18FD6D014F3FAD83!236&authkey=!AKHnpn-y4wpd_to&ithint=video,MOV
 

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