Re: Why can I not bring my pH down??
Thank you! ?
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Thank you! ?
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One week in - pH still off the charts, TA dropping, chlorine low
- Thread starter sbollag
- Start date
Re: Why can I not bring my pH down??
Just like not all pool stores are "evil", neither are all pool services.
Just as a recommendation, I would tell him you don't want the CYA over 70. This gives you a little "room" for testing above your target. The limit of the test is 100, so once you reach that point the test just keeps telling you 100, no matter how high it gets. We have had hundreds of folks show up here, and even my pool when I took it over tested "100" and after using diluted testing techniques (that get less precise as the number goes up) I discovered mine was about 250. We have had others with CYA in the three & four hundreds, all "testing" at 100.
Just like not all pool stores are "evil", neither are all pool services.
Just as a recommendation, I would tell him you don't want the CYA over 70. This gives you a little "room" for testing above your target. The limit of the test is 100, so once you reach that point the test just keeps telling you 100, no matter how high it gets. We have had hundreds of folks show up here, and even my pool when I took it over tested "100" and after using diluted testing techniques (that get less precise as the number goes up) I discovered mine was about 250. We have had others with CYA in the three & four hundreds, all "testing" at 100.
Re: Why can I not bring my pH down??
Exactly.
Wow, OK, good to know, thanks.
Huh, he said it's safe to swim up to 120, but over that then they would try to lower it. So I wonder how they can be so precise...
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Exactly.
Wow, OK, good to know, thanks.
Huh, he said it's safe to swim up to 120, but over that then they would try to lower it. So I wonder how they can be so precise...
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Re: Why can I not bring my pH down??
It is just better to stick with the scale that is marked on the tube.
Remember, once you reach you goal you eith have to switch to products that do not contain CYA or drain water to get back below your goal. This is why we much prefer to see folks use automated chlorine systems like salt water chlorine generators or Stenner pumps.
Unlike pH or some other factors in the pool CYA is generally safe at any level, meaning it won't harm you if you swam in a pool with lets say 300 CYA, so his training is like many in the pool industry, taught by the person who had the job before them and repeating "how it should be done". The tubes for CYA tests are marked from the bottom up 100 up to 20 or 30 depending on the tube. This will be less confusing once you do the test a few times, but some people "assign" a number to levels below the 100 mark and "say" the level is "X". There is also a way to dilute the sample to get higher readings, but included with the higher reading is a higher rate of inaccuracy. So, using a 1/1 dilution rate if you ended up with 60 you would double the result to get 120. But that 120 may have an error rate caused by the dilution of up to about 15 points either side of 120, so your answer may be 105 or 135 - no one knows.
It is just better to stick with the scale that is marked on the tube.
Remember, once you reach you goal you eith have to switch to products that do not contain CYA or drain water to get back below your goal. This is why we much prefer to see folks use automated chlorine systems like salt water chlorine generators or Stenner pumps.
Re: Why can I not bring my pH down??
I have nothing against a guy trying to make a living, I do that every day myself.....
I also agree that all PS are not 'evil', I'm sure your PS is a great guy and businessman.
Just keep an eye on your water chemistry, if you are correct that he only plans to use one puck a week as the only source of chlorine, that is not going to keep your pool sanitized, period.
Also, as the CYA rises to unmanageable levels, the only reliable way to lower it is to do a partial drain & refill.
Dom
I have nothing against a guy trying to make a living, I do that every day myself.....
I also agree that all PS are not 'evil', I'm sure your PS is a great guy and businessman.
Just keep an eye on your water chemistry, if you are correct that he only plans to use one puck a week as the only source of chlorine, that is not going to keep your pool sanitized, period.
Also, as the CYA rises to unmanageable levels, the only reliable way to lower it is to do a partial drain & refill.
Dom
Re: Why can I not bring my pH down??
I hear you, for sure.
I don't know, I mean, I'm sure they keep the pool sanitized one way or another. Maybe they'll also add liquid chlorine or something.
Definitely will keep an eye on things and definitely understand how CYA works (although I do think given our climate here, the rainwater replacement may help to lower it somewhat.
In any case, should be meeting the actual tech who's going to service our pool today, so I will go over all of this with him.
On a different note, tested everything this morning and TA seems a bit low, looked to me like it was only about 30. Not sure why it's going so low. I'll talk to tech about it and let him deal with it.
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I hear you, for sure.
I don't know, I mean, I'm sure they keep the pool sanitized one way or another. Maybe they'll also add liquid chlorine or something.
Definitely will keep an eye on things and definitely understand how CYA works (although I do think given our climate here, the rainwater replacement may help to lower it somewhat.
In any case, should be meeting the actual tech who's going to service our pool today, so I will go over all of this with him.
On a different note, tested everything this morning and TA seems a bit low, looked to me like it was only about 30. Not sure why it's going so low. I'll talk to tech about it and let him deal with it.
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Re: Why can I not bring my pH down??
The problem is that unless they're coming every single day, they can't add liquid chlorine - you have to add liquid daily.
If they're going to use pucks, and you don't mind draining from time to time, and they will ensure they're adding enough pucks to keep the FC at the appropriate level for CYA, which will be continually rising over time (unless they're using cal-hypo, in which case you need to monitor your CH to avoid scaling issues), you can use the service just fine.
The problem is that unless they're coming every single day, they can't add liquid chlorine - you have to add liquid daily.
If they're going to use pucks, and you don't mind draining from time to time, and they will ensure they're adding enough pucks to keep the FC at the appropriate level for CYA, which will be continually rising over time (unless they're using cal-hypo, in which case you need to monitor your CH to avoid scaling issues), you can use the service just fine.
Re: Why can I not bring my pH down??
Your TA is low because you have been hitting the pool hard with acid to get the pH down. Acid lowers BOTH pH & TA. Baking soda will bring the TA back up, but don't go too high. Most in the pool industry recommend TA in the 100-120 range while we have found that many pools really like it in the 60 - 80 range. TA moderates the rise of pH, so the higher the TA the faster pH rises and the more acid you need. When my TA is anywhere near 100 I have to add acid daily. If I keep it down around 50 I add about every four days.
While speaking about this, find out what they are going to adjust your pool levels to. You may want to tell them you are looking for something different on some parameters.
Lots of rain will definitely help keep the CYA in check. Just remember, as it rises you need to adjust the FC level up correspondingly. This is what Dom is referring to and what most pool services totally miss in their pool care regimen. As the CYA goes up make sure they target higher FC according to the Chlorine / CYA Chart
Your TA is low because you have been hitting the pool hard with acid to get the pH down. Acid lowers BOTH pH & TA. Baking soda will bring the TA back up, but don't go too high. Most in the pool industry recommend TA in the 100-120 range while we have found that many pools really like it in the 60 - 80 range. TA moderates the rise of pH, so the higher the TA the faster pH rises and the more acid you need. When my TA is anywhere near 100 I have to add acid daily. If I keep it down around 50 I add about every four days.
While speaking about this, find out what they are going to adjust your pool levels to. You may want to tell them you are looking for something different on some parameters.
Lots of rain will definitely help keep the CYA in check. Just remember, as it rises you need to adjust the FC level up correspondingly. This is what Dom is referring to and what most pool services totally miss in their pool care regimen. As the CYA goes up make sure they target higher FC according to the Chlorine / CYA Chart
Re: Why can I not bring my pH down??
Thanks, all, for all the discussion, I certainly appreciate it.
That's right, now that you mention it, I did know that about acid and the TA.
So I definitely understand the relationship between CYA and FC, but I guess what I'm not entirely clear on is, even if the CYA is high, if the chlorine is lower but being effective, if the pool is staying clean, why does that necessarily matter?? You say, "most pool services totally miss this in their care regimen." But if they're keeping the pool clean and algae free and other levels are all reasonable, what's the significance of that? I'm sure there is something, just trying to understand.
Thanks again!
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Thanks, all, for all the discussion, I certainly appreciate it.
That's right, now that you mention it, I did know that about acid and the TA.
So I definitely understand the relationship between CYA and FC, but I guess what I'm not entirely clear on is, even if the CYA is high, if the chlorine is lower but being effective, if the pool is staying clean, why does that necessarily matter?? You say, "most pool services totally miss this in their care regimen." But if they're keeping the pool clean and algae free and other levels are all reasonable, what's the significance of that? I'm sure there is something, just trying to understand.
Thanks again!
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- Mar 24, 2014
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- 32000
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- CircuPool SJ-55
Re: Why can I not bring my pH down??
I'm not sure I understand your question, but I'll try to answer it anyway
There is no such thing as "lower but effective". If the FC is below the minimum in this chart Pool School - Chlorine / CYA Chart algae can grow. That's the basic premise.
I'm not sure I understand your question, but I'll try to answer it anyway
There is no such thing as "lower but effective". If the FC is below the minimum in this chart Pool School - Chlorine / CYA Chart algae can grow. That's the basic premise.
Re: Why can I not bring my pH down??
"Clean" and algae free is not necessarily sanitary. Without getting into all the bad stuff that can live in your water lets just say that there are organisms that can make you sick that you want to make sure are always killed quickly.
Are they common, no - but they do occur.
"Clean" and algae free is not necessarily sanitary. Without getting into all the bad stuff that can live in your water lets just say that there are organisms that can make you sick that you want to make sure are always killed quickly.
Are they common, no - but they do occur.
Re: Why can I not bring my pH down??
Yeah, that's what I thought. But obviously all these pool services don't just have pools full of algae, right?
Hmm, well that makes some sense, and is concerning. And I suppose there's no easy way to test for that sort of stuff?
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Yeah, that's what I thought. But obviously all these pool services don't just have pools full of algae, right?
Hmm, well that makes some sense, and is concerning. And I suppose there's no easy way to test for that sort of stuff?
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Re: Why can I not bring my pH down??
A lot of services dump shock in once a week, as well as add expensive algaecides. They may be keeping the algae at bay, but that doesn't mean that the pool is sanitary the rest of the week.
As for testing for bacteria/viruses, you could certainly start swabbing petri dishes and growing/analyzing what grows on them, but why not instead just keep the FC at the appropriate level and keep your family safe?
A lot of services dump shock in once a week, as well as add expensive algaecides. They may be keeping the algae at bay, but that doesn't mean that the pool is sanitary the rest of the week.
As for testing for bacteria/viruses, you could certainly start swabbing petri dishes and growing/analyzing what grows on them, but why not instead just keep the FC at the appropriate level and keep your family safe?
Re: Why can I not bring my pH down??
No, not easy to test for but easy to prevent. Maintaining FC above minimum for your CYA, [FC/CYA][/FC/CYA], at all times will keep your pool sanitary. That is what the minimum FC level is for, it ensures a proper kill rate for bacteria, viruses and pathogens.
No, not easy to test for but easy to prevent. Maintaining FC above minimum for your CYA, [FC/CYA][/FC/CYA], at all times will keep your pool sanitary. That is what the minimum FC level is for, it ensures a proper kill rate for bacteria, viruses and pathogens.
Re: Why can I not bring my pH down??
There is a push in the industry to try to find a way to eliminate or lower chlorine. Ozone, UV and a host of other things are being pushed by those trying to sell those products. Some of them even have a place in the pool/spa industry in unique circumstances like indoor pools or heated spas.
Without diverting form your pool and questions, here is a sad story of a commercial operation that only used UV with small amount of chlorine "periodically". For those that swear by UV disinfection
Again, it's not the algae we are worried about.
There is a push in the industry to try to find a way to eliminate or lower chlorine. Ozone, UV and a host of other things are being pushed by those trying to sell those products. Some of them even have a place in the pool/spa industry in unique circumstances like indoor pools or heated spas.
Without diverting form your pool and questions, here is a sad story of a commercial operation that only used UV with small amount of chlorine "periodically". For those that swear by UV disinfection
Re: Why can I not bring my pH down??
The CYA/FC ratio has been developed and proven through the 1000's of pools here at TFP, and backed up by many, many peer reviewed scientific papers.
Anything less than the calculated minimum FC per the CYA level is not effective at keeping the water sanitized. That is the whole point of the CYA/FC ratio, to ensure that the water remains algae & bacteria/virus free.
Dom
............ As for testing for bacteria/viruses, you could certainly start swabbing petri dishes and growing/analyzing what grows on them, but why not instead just keep the FC at the appropriate level and keep your family safe?
The CYA/FC ratio has been developed and proven through the 1000's of pools here at TFP, and backed up by many, many peer reviewed scientific papers.
Anything less than the calculated minimum FC per the CYA level is not effective at keeping the water sanitized. That is the whole point of the CYA/FC ratio, to ensure that the water remains algae & bacteria/virus free.
Dom
That's just too easy to pass up....it's because they do not know any better.....probably never read this forum.....at least not carefully.
Everyone is free to take care of their pools in whatever way works for them.......and many do.
Our methods are not for everybody but what we teach is scientifically undeniable.