Newb OB with BYOP in Buckeye AZ - Short vacation pH and FC question

[KevMo]

I just had my pool built in the Hoston area and had it pre-plumbed for a Glacier cooler. I had the plumbers do a modifiedthis document from Glacier. I have the 3-way valve right after the filter that goes to the "normal" return flow through heater with automated bypass and through to the chiller. This way I can set the flow needed to go through the main system for filtering & (future) SWG and the right amount so the wand on the chiller ru s at a "walking" speed. I also made sure I had a spare relay in the Intellicenter to be able to automate it.

I am going to wait to see how the water temperature is during the summer with my deeper and partially shaded pool. It should be a quick job to install it. I may DIY it. Either way it will only cost a few hundred dollars above the cost of thr Glacier unit.

 

[Schwimmbad]

Thanks @KevMo. I'm taking it that your SWG will between the three-way valve and the pool returns. Is that correct?

 

[KevMo]

Thanks @KevMo. I'm taking it that your SWG will between the three-way valve and the pool returns. Is that correct?

Yes

 

[desertbeekeeper]

Schwimmbad​

I’m on the other side of town, but who are you using for your plumbing?

 

[Schwimmbad]

Any comments on the equipment list (this is what Wholesale Pool Equipment Spec'd out)? Are these the model numbers I should get?

	Item Detail	Quantity
1	Pentair Trade Grade 011075 3HP 230V Intelliflo3 VSF Pump	1
2	Pentair Trade Grade 160301 Clean and Clear Plus 420 Cartridge Filter	1
3	Pentair 521910 IntelliCenter i8P Single Body Personality Kit	1
4	Pentair Trade Grade 522041 IntelliCenter Load Center W/ SCG Support	1
5	Pentair Trade Grade 521105 Intellichlor Salt Chlorinator IC60 with 15 ft Cord	1
6	Pentair 520588 IntelliChlor Pass-Through Cell	1
7	Pentair 520670 IntelliChlor Acid Washing Kit	1
9	Pentair Trade Grade 521485 IntelliValve Valve Actuator for 2 and 3 Way Valves	1
8	Pentair 263026 Three-way Diverter Valve 2" - 2.50" 3-Port CPVC Diverter Valve	3
11	Pentair 263038 Diverter Valve Two Port 1.50" - 2"	9
12	Pentair 263060 Check Diverter Valve with 2-1/2in. CPVC Pipe	1
10	Pentair Trade Grade 620425 12V 100' Color MicroBrite LED Light	4
13	Pentair 619963 300 Watt Transformer	1
14	Pentair 542464 QuikWater Water Leveler Tan	1
15	Wilkins 12-720A .50" Pressure Vacuum Breaker Assembly	1
16	CMP 25555-001-000 Return Fitting Gray	7
17	Waterway 540-6707 Volleyball / Umbrella Pole 1.5	1
18	QUIKSKIM GRY/ TAN LID VENTURI SKIMMER W/ FOAM	2
19	Perma Cast PB-2008 Water Bonding Fitting 1	1
20	Diversitech 2436-3 CladLite Concrete Equipment Pad 24 x 36 x 3 Gray	1

How about the plumbing diagram?
Note all skimmer runs and returns are home runs to the equipment pad and there is one pipe run to the scuppers that will split with three valves right behind the elevated wall.

Several have said I can reduce the pipe sizes so take a look at the design above and let me know if this looks good. For the scuppers they can run up to 90 gpm total so I was thinking a 2" run to where they split into 3 and use 1.5" to each scupper individually. I decided to keep the skimmers at 2.5" so if one is out of commission, I could still get 90 gpm through the other one. I was keeping everything at the pad at 2.5", but wondering if it could/should all be 2" after the pump. Hoping @JamesW or @mas985 can take a quick look and be kind enough to give me their thoughts.

Size.......6 ft/sec......8 ft/sec.
1.5"...........38...............51 gpm
2"..............63...............84 gpm
2.5............90.............119 gpm
3.0".........138............184 gpm
4.0"........238.............317 gpm

Also, I decided to eliminate the water feature pump and the main drain. However, I'm trying to understand how I will control the scuppers with the three-way valve (will have an actuator) that is between the returns and the scuppers. I believe the intellivalve actuator can only have two setpoints (end points), so one would be 100% returns and the other would either be 100% scuppers or some other setting achieving a % split between the returns and scuppers. The volume of water over the scuppers would then be driven by the pump. Do I have this right? The Wholesale Pool Equipment supplier said the intellivalve actuator is adjustable in 3.75% increments throughout it's range by the intellicenter. I thought I read around here somewhere you are limited to setting it to two positions and that is what it seems to say in the manual. Can someone clarify this for me?

Finally, after talking with a few folks, they said the SWG should be right before the returns and after the chiller. This is because most of the flow will go to the pool through the SWG and the 5 returns. Just enough of the flow will go through the chiller so the wand "walks" at the right speed which then sends the cooled water to pool through the one floor return.

 

[mas985]

1.5" is fine as long as you can keep the velocity low. But going to 2" is not going to cost that much more so might be something to think about if you ever plan to run any of those lines higher than about 50 GPM.

I prefer check valves after filters rather than before. Debris can keep them open.

The Wholesale Pool Equipment supplier said the intellivalve actuator is adjustable in 3.75% increments throughout it's range by the intellicenter. I thought I read around here somewhere you are limited to setting it to two positions and that is what it seems to say in the manual. Can someone clarify this for me?

It is my understanding the valve is programable in 3.75% steps but for only two positions. So effectively, it works the same way as a traditional actuator but instead of manually adjusting the cams for position, you can do it via the keypad.

 

[proavia]

I'm not a fan of the way they propose to plumb the chiller in.
It really should be plumbed with a bypass - exactly the same way as the heater bypass.
The SWG should be after BOTH the heater and chiller as the last item before water returns thru the wall, baja or floor returns and the water features.

Plumbing it this way will allow all return water to flow thru the SWG and also allow the return water to be sent thru ANY of the wall returns and the floor return.
The header after the SWG should allow return water to go to the wall and baja returns as well as the floor return.

The diagram shows the chiller water doesn't run thru the SWG - and if using the chiller, you will need to run at a higher rpm to get sufficient flow thru both the SWG (to satisfy the flow switch) and the chiller.
There is no reason not to chlorinate the water (using the SWG) after water is run thru the chiller.

 

[Schwimmbad]

He @mas985, I can't tell you how much I appreciate your feedback. Thank you, thank you, thank you!!! I've read several of your plumbing related write-ups you have in your signature and have to say I have a lot of respect for your comments!

1.5" is fine as long as you can keep the velocity low. But going to 2" is not going to cost that much more so might be something to think about if you ever plan to run any of those lines higher than about 50 GPM.

Given that I plan to have flow split between 6 returns (including the floor return for the future chiller), I'm sure it would be low. However, I'll ask the plumber to price the difference. Always good to get a true cost rather than assumptions and build in flexibility.

I prefer check valves after filters rather than before. Debris can keep them open.

Great point about debris that I didn't think of. I forgot where I read a suggestion to put it between the pump and filter and what the rationale was for that. Your comment makes sense, so I'll move it. Thanks!

It is my understanding the valve is programable in 3.75% steps but for only two positions. So effectively, it works the same way as a traditional actuator but instead of manually adjusting the cams for position, you can do it via the keypad.

In other words, it can't be controlled to adjust the valve position incrementally through it's range remotely through the app, correct? You pick the two positions and the intellicenter operates the valve to only those two positions. If you want to change either of those two positions, you have to physically go the actuator and set a different position. I can sometimes be a bit thick but am I finally getting how this works?

 

[KevMo]

In other words, it can't be controlled to adjust the valve position incrementally through it's range remotely through the app, correct? You pick the two positions and the intellicenter operates the valve to only those two positions. If you want to change either of those two positions, you have to physically go the actuator and set a different position. I can sometimes be a bit thick but am I finally getting how this works?

That is how my system works.

 

[Schwimmbad]

I'm not a fan of the way they propose to plumb the chiller in.
It really should be plumbed with a bypass - exactly the same way as the heater bypass.
The SWG should be after BOTH the heater and chiller as the last item before water returns thru the wall, baja or floor returns and the water features.

Plumbing it this way will allow all return water to flow thru the SWG and also allow the return water to be sent thru ANY of the wall returns and the floor return.
The header after the SWG should allow return water to go to the wall and baja returns as well as the floor return.

The diagram shows the chiller water doesn't run thru the SWG - and if using the chiller, you will need to run at a higher rpm to get sufficient flow thru both the SWG (to satisfy the flow switch) and the chiller.
There is no reason not to chlorinate the water (using the SWG) after water is run thru the chiller.

Hey @proavia thanks a bunch for your additional comments. Are you saying you are not a fan of the way Glacier is proposing to plumb the chiller? I attempted to annote the way my design would work to show what I am thinking and why. Can you take a look and let me know what you think?

As @KevMo posted earlier, the glacier chiller installation manual diagram (attached pdf below) shows for automatic new installations the preferred plumbing is to run the output from the chiller into the pool on it's own return placed in the center of the floor in it's deepest spot (see my annotation on the Glacier diagram below). My plumbing diagram posted above isn't the best, but my thought was to install all 6 returns initially (before I decide if I want a chiller) off a header from the main line. Later, if I install the chiller, I would break the floor return from the header with the other 5 wall returns and connect the floor return to the output of the chiller. The end result would have the chiller installed like the image below.

If I installed a bypass like the heater, wouldn't the chiller return go back into the main line and into all 6 returns? It seems you are suggesting a design different than the options Glacier shows in their installation manual. For adding a chiller to an existing pool they are suggesting to tie the chiller output in a loop back in front of the pump. Is there a reason you are suggesting to plumb it differently than Glacier?

Also, I could be misunderstanding how the three-way valve works. This feels like a stupid question, but I'll ask it anyway. Can't I split the flow with a three-way diverter valve so a portion goes into each pipe? Say I want to run 20% through the chiller and it's one floor return and 80% through the system to the SWG and the other 5 returns? The way I was thinking of the design is I have two adjustment points (pump and 3-way valve) to get the flow correct through both the chiller (so the wand "walks" at the right speed) and the SWG (so it generates the chlorine) so both can operate at appropriate flow rates (and minimize pump RPMs). When I don't want to run the chiller running the 3-way valve runs all flow through the swg and the 5 wall returns.

The attached Glacier chiller installation manual has lots and lots of notes about the warranty and corrasion concerns with salt water pools. If you search for the word Salt, it shows up a lot. For this reason, maybe inaccurately, I was thinking it would be better to put the SWG after the chiller. Since the Glacier manual doesn't show a SWG, maybe their diagram intentionally doesn't take into account what it needs to operate.

 

[KevMo]

I'm not a fan of the way they propose to plumb the chiller in.
It really should be plumbed with a bypass - exactly the same way as the heater bypass.
The SWG should be after BOTH the heater and chiller as the last item before water returns thru the wall, baja or floor returns and the water features.

Plumbing it this way will allow all return water to flow thru the SWG and also allow the return water to be sent thru ANY of the wall returns and the floor return.
The header after the SWG should allow return water to go to the wall and baja returns as well as the floor return.

The diagram shows the chiller water doesn't run thru the SWG - and if using the chiller, you will need to run at a higher rpm to get sufficient flow thru both the SWG (to satisfy the flow switch) and the chiller.
There is no reason not to chlorinate the water (using the SWG) after water is run thru the chiller.

It depends on the type of chiller you are using. Glacier recommends a dedicated return line for the cooler/chiller. The chiller works with a spinning wand that sprays water inside the vessel, letting it cool in the night air as it falls to the bottom where it is pumped out the dedicated return. The Glacier wand works best when rotating at "walking speed." This might not be enough flow to run an SWG. I described my setup in post #41 of this thread. If I was using a chiller that was designed more like a heater then I could have done it like you described.

 

[KevMo]

Can't I split the flow with a three-way diverter valve so a portion goes into each pipe? Say I want to run 20% through the chiller and it's one floor return and 80% through the system to the SWG and the other 5 returns? The way I was thinking of the design is I have two adjustment points (pump and 3-way valve) to get the flow correct through both the chiller (so the wand "walks" at the right speed) and the SWG (so it generates the chlorine) so both can operate at appropriate flow rates (and minimize pump RPMs).

That is how mine is setup.

 

[proavia]

If the chiller doesn't need much flow, then the rest of the flow could continue past the chiller and thru the SWG or the pump run at a slower speed. My initial thought was the chiller needed high flow to work at its full potential. But since the Glacier chiller doesn't need a high flow rate, your plumbing diagram would work best.

I think I'd place a valve in the return header where the 'X' is to allow the option to send heated or chiller return water to ANY of the returns as this would provide you will multiple options. And move the 2-way valve before the chiller to after the chiller (but before the return header) as this would allow taking the chiller out of the water flow if it ever developed an issue requiring it. The 3-way valve before the chiller will provide the option to fully stop water from flowing into the chiller.

 

[Schwimmbad]

I think I'd place a valve in the return header where the 'X' is to allow the option to send heated or chiller return water to ANY of the returns as this would provide you will multiple options. And move the 2-way valve before the chiller to after the chiller (but before the return header) as this would allow taking the chiller out of the water flow if it ever developed an issue requiring it.

I like this idea. Thanks for the additional suggestions. I forgot why I had the valve in front of the chiller, given that there is a 3 way in front of it.

 

[Schwimmbad]

Bumping in hopes someone can review my equipment list in post #45 and give me some feedback. I’m not yet familiar with the intellicenter and have been wondering about the i5 vs the i8.

Side topic, is there a way to post a link that takes you straight to a particular post, like #45 in this thread?

 

[PoolStored]

Side topic, is there a way to post a link that takes you straight to a particular post, like #45 in this thread?

Go to the post. Look for the little "<" looking sign in the upper right. Hover over it (mouse on computer) or click (phone). Computer after hover click the two page looking thing next to link, it will copy the link. Paste it where you want it. Phone after clicking "<" thing, choose copy. Paste it where you want it.

 

[Schwimmbad]

Go to the post. Look for the little "<" looking sign in the upper right. Hover over it (mouse on computer) or click (phone). Computer after hover click the two page looking thing next to link, it will copy the link. Paste it where you want it. Phone after clicking "<" thing, choose copy. Paste it where you want it.

Danke @PoolStored!

 

[Schwimmbad]

Just a little update:
The design was signed off with BYOP on 4/26 and they sent it out to their list of subs on 5/1. I sent the design to a few additional contractors shortly after that. 29 days later I now have bids from 28 contractors. While this seems pretty good to me, I want to get a few more plumbing, mason/decking/tile, and plaster bids.


I didn't realize engineering was based on "pre-approved" designs for Buckeye, AZ. On 5/10 I told the engineering company I wanted to go with them at 4:19PM, paid $200 at 4:45PM and had the design in my email at 4:46PM.

The engineering product I got included a letter saying the design is only useable for my address, 4 pages of a design details, 1 page of disclaimers and 2 pages talking about moisture sensitive soils (expansive soils) noting the design is not site specific and including many recommendations about managing water around the pool from the monsoons. I went with an engineering basis for 45psf rather than the typical 30psf. The builder for our home said the site has expansive soils which is why I went with 45psf. This did increase the bid for rebar by about 40-49% (about $1k). According to BYOP most people don't do a geotech and engineering is based on 30psf. I might have overdesigned, but $1.1K seems to be a small price to pay.

Just received my golden ticket (permit) last Friday. I'm a little sad I have to wait to get this adventure started until we move in August and get out of the peak of summer heat to start in September.

I submitted for HOA approval this weekend. They say HOA approval should come back within 30 days. I wonder what the over/under is on their turnaround?

P.S. - Still hoping for some feedback on my equipment list, I'm feeling a little insecure on that at the moment.

 

[ajw22]

P.S. - Still hoping for some feedback on my equipment list, I'm feeling a little insecure on that at the moment.

You have a pretty good list and got some feedback on the thread. If you have doubts about anything then post your questions.

I don’t see a reason to buy the IntelliChlor Acid Washing Kit. I have never needed to acid wash my cell.

Buy the IntelliCenter bundle with the Load Center, IntelliChlor cell, and IntelliValves. It is a much better value then buying individual components.

 

[AQUA~HOLICS]

Ask for all the load tickets from concrete trucks delivering the Shotcrete, it’s the only way to confirm what you paid for.