New PebbleSheen French Gray Finish - Splotchy/Uneven - normal?

[lovelaguna2]

Our pool was refinished about 35 days ago with PebbleSheen French Gray. From a distance, it looks beautiful. However, when you get closer to it, the finish is very splotchy and uneven because the French Gray is so dark and the other areas are so much lighter. We also have some bigger pieces of white in the finish that don't really look like pebbles. They look more like pieces of plaster that may have dropped into the pool while the finish was being completed. I can't really get very good photos of the unevenness, but I will attach anyway.

We brushed daily and have maintained the chemicals as required.

Our pool builder is telling us we just need to keep brushing and bring the PH down to 6.8 - 7.2 which is lower than anything we've been previously told.

Questions:
1) Should we be concerned yet about the finish?
2) Does the recommended solution seem reasonable?
3) Anyone else have French Gray that has white pieces mixed in with their small pebbles?

Thanks for any thoughts anyone may have.

 

[ajw22]

No, you should not be concerned. Darker finish often come out mottled.

Brushing and lowering your pH is not going to change things. They are busywork for your builder to give you something to do.

Enjoy your new pool.

Plaster Installation and Maintenance - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[lovelaguna2]

No, you should not be concerned. Darker finish often come out mottled.

Brushing and lowering your pH is not going to change things. They are busywork for your builder to give you something to do.

Enjoy your new pool.

Plaster Installation and Maintenance - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Thanks for your input. We will definitely enjoy the pool, but don’t want to accept the unevenness if it isn’t truly normal and expected.

 

[Dirk]

That color is the spitting image of my pool, though mine is called something else and is not from PebbleTec. No matter. While it is true that dark finishes may have some "blotchiness," and most certainly will acquire that with age, it's not necessarily "normal and expected" that it would look that way brand new. Mine didn't. And still doesn't (five years old).

Allan is likely correct, no amount of brushing or pH finagling at this point is going to correct what is happening. Sometimes lowering the pH of the water drastically (referred to as a "no-drain acid wash") can have an effect on a plaster finish, but that has as many downsides as it does anything positive. It's used by pool companies that don't want to risk draining a pool for a true acid wash, nor pay for it, or are just too lazy to do it right. Either way, applying any amount of acid to the finish is not going to fix the blotchiness, and will only serve to weaken or remove the plaster holding in the pebbles. Personally, I wouldn't do that.

OK, more to the point. You should determine what is causing the blotchiness, or arrange for underwater photos and post them here. We can't really tell what's going on from the photos you posted, and might not be able to even if taken underwater. What I'd be concerned about is the pebble distribution, and if that is affecting the overall appearance. It is the pebbles and the plaster holding them in, together, that produces the color your eye sees. If you have too much pebble exposed, or too few, that would affect the color of that area, because the plaster is likely not the same color as the pebbles. If that is the cause, then it would depend on how bad the bad distribution is to determine if it's worth addressing or not.

If there are areas of underexposed pebbles, that can be fixed by the installer. Over exposed pebbles would not be easy to fix, and they may fall out over time, leaving you with very rough patches of pebble-less plaster, which would be very abrasive to your skin.

Again, without a first hand view, it's impossible for anyone here to say "Everything is fine" or "the worst has happened." If your installer is not willing to come out to assess the problem, then you have some options. PebbleSheen is supposed to be installed only by installers certified by PebbleTec. And it is PebbleTec that services the warranty (ultimately). So it's possible that if the installer won't do anything, or even come out and look at it, then PebbleTec would. Should. If you are unsuccessful with the installer, you can call PebbleTec yourself and demand action. If neither installer or PebbleTec will address this, the other option is to have a pool finish professional come out to evaluate the finish. I expect there could be a charge for that.

OK, that's the best and worst cases. If you go down with a mask and/or camera and you see a very consistent distribution of pebbles, and they are neither too embedded nor too exposed, then your installation is about as good as it gets and you're gifted with an early case of mottling. But if you see otherwise, get the installer out to assess the finish, and if they won't, get PebbleTec to come out. In the meantime, I would set the chemical balance to adhere strictly to PebbleTec recommendations (NOT the builder's), and document your testing and dosing thoroughly. Installers and PebbleTec have been known to not honor their warranty if they can show you've let the chemistry lax. Do your part, and make them do theirs.

Or live with it. Pursuing this sort of thing is taxing at best. It can be a battle, even a legal one. But getting what you paid for is important. So you have to weigh the alternatives.

Regarding the white chunks... were you shown a sample of the finish? Did it have white chunks in it? That would be your starting point for determining what to do about that. My finish has some sparkles in it, here and there, that I didn't order or want. I assumed they were left over in the vat or mixer from some previous job. There were not enough of them to be of a concern. I don't even think about them. Again, are you willing to go to war over them? Or look at them in a new light that will make them acceptable?

 

[Dirk]

I just examined my finish closely, not a mottle in sight. I tried to get a pic, but the pic is reflecting our cloudy day today, which looks just like bad mottling. Sorry, no help there. All I can do is say that it looks nothing like this in person. You can kinda see in the reflection of the trees, which are blocking the clouds, that the finish looks pretty even, though some light is sneaking in through the branches, which looks a bit like mottling! Whaddayagunnado?

 

[lovelaguna2]

I just examined my finish closely, not a mottle in sight. I tried to get a pic, but the pic is reflecting our cloudy day today, which looks just like bad mottling. Sorry, no help there. All I can do is say that it looks nothing like this in person. You can kinda see in the reflection of the trees, which are blocking the clouds, that the finish looks pretty even, though some light is sneaking in through the branches, which looks a bit like mottling! Whaddayagunnado?

View attachment 540644

Thank you for the photo Dirk. Your finish does look great! Hoping ours gets there.

 

[lovelaguna2]

I just examined my finish closely, not a mottle in sight. I tried to get a pic, but the pic is reflecting our cloudy day today, which looks just like bad mottling. Sorry, no help there. All I can do is say that it looks nothing like this in person. You can kinda see in the reflection of the trees, which are blocking the clouds, that the finish looks pretty even, though some light is sneaking in through the branches, which looks a bit like mottling! Whaddayagunnado?

View attachment 540644

Wow! Thank you for sharing such great feedback. Our pool builder is one of a handful of authorized installers for Pebbletec, so they

That color is the spitting image of my pool, though mine is called something else and is not from PebbleTec. No matter. While it is true that dark finishes may have some "blotchiness," and most certainly will acquire that with age, it's not necessarily "normal and expected" that it would look that way brand new. Mine didn't. And still doesn't (five years old).

Allan is likely correct, no amount of brushing or pH finagling at this point is going to correct what is happening. Sometimes lowering the pH of the water drastically (referred to as a "no-drain acid wash") can have an effect on a plaster finish, but that has as many downsides as it does anything positive. It's used by pool companies that don't want to risk draining a pool for a true acid wash, nor pay for it, or are just too lazy to do it right. Either way, applying any amount of acid to the finish is not going to fix the blotchiness, and will only serve to weaken or remove the plaster holding in the pebbles. Personally, I wouldn't do that.

OK, more to the point. You should determine what is causing the blotchiness, or arrange for underwater photos and post them here. We can't really tell what's going on from the photos you posted, and might not be able to even if taken underwater. What I'd be concerned about is the pebble distribution, and if that is affecting the overall appearance. It is the pebbles and the plaster holding them in, together, that produces the color your eye sees. If you have too much pebble exposed, or too few, that would affect the color of that area, because the plaster is likely not the same color as the pebbles. If that is the cause, then it would depend on how bad the bad distribution is to determine if it's worth addressing or not.

If there are areas of underexposed pebbles, that can be fixed by the installer. Over exposed pebbles would not be easy to fix, and they may fall out over time, leaving you with very rough patches of pebble-less plaster, which would be very abrasive to your skin.

Again, without a first hand view, it's impossible for anyone here to say "Everything is fine" or "the worst has happened." If your installer is not willing to come out to assess the problem, then you have some options. PebbleSheen is supposed to be installed only by installers certified by PebbleTec. And it is PebbleTec that services the warranty (ultimately). So it's possible that if the installer won't do anything, or even come out and look at it, then PebbleTec would. Should. If you are unsuccessful with the installer, you can call PebbleTec yourself and demand action. If neither installer or PebbleTec will address this, the other option is to have a pool finish professional come out to evaluate the finish. I expect there could be a charge for that.

OK, that's the best and worst cases. If you go down with a mask and/or camera and you see a very consistent distribution of pebbles, and they are neither too embedded nor too exposed, then your installation is about as good as it gets and you're gifted with an early case of mottling. But if you see otherwise, get the installer out to assess the finish, and if they won't, get PebbleTec to come out. In the meantime, I would set the chemical balance to adhere strictly to PebbleTec recommendations (NOT the builder's), and document your testing and dosing thoroughly. Installers and PebbleTec have been known to not honor their warranty if they can show you've let the chemistry lax. Do your part, and make them do theirs.

Or live with it. Pursuing this sort of thing is taxing at best. It can be a battle, even a legal one. But getting what you paid for is important. So you have to weigh the alternatives.

Regarding the white chunks... were you shown a sample of the finish? Did it have white chunks in it? That would be your starting point for determining what to do about that. My finish has some sparkles in it, here and there, that I didn't order or want. I assumed they were left over in the vat or mixer from some previous job. There were not enough of them to be of a concern. I don't even think about them. Again, are you willing to go to war over them? Or look at them in a new light that will make them acceptable?

Dirk, thanks for the extensive feedback. You've provided a lot more great insights for us.

We did use an authorized installer for Pebbletec - confirmed before we signed the contract directly with PT. I have emailed PT and they have reached out to our PB to determine next steps, since we really didn't think continuing to brush the pool would do anything either.

We did see several samples smaller and larger of the finish before selecting the color and none had the white chunks. Of course, when I say chunks, I mean probably about 1/8" to 1/4" in size but relative to the aggregate, they are larger and always catch your eye first since they are white. Ultimately, we probably do have to live with them, but just wanted to understand if other's have seen this in their finish, as it's not what we expected. It gives us some leverage with the PB since we haven't paid our final installment yet. Your pool does not have anything like that based on your great photo.

We will pursue with our PB and post more photos if we can get some better ones.

 

[bmoreswim]

Our pool was a plaster day brew of portland cement, marcite and some Diamond Brite (which can also be installed by itself) in a black color to add coloration to the finish and make it grey, similar to french grey. The Diamond Brite is a quartz finish. There is clearly mottling. Though that is possibly more likely due to the variety of ingredients in the mix. However, SGM, the manufacturer of Diamond Brite, has a FAQ document which gets to the point. Some of the text is from industry bodies, other parts is from SGM. Bottom line is they all say, it's due to site conditions/installation procedures and is within norms. Different manufacturer but the issue is universal to plaster based finishes. In my picture below, it's a little hard to see, but anything that looks like mottling is mottling. Also there are broad arcs in the shallow area that aren't uncommon installation issues affecting aesthetics. We love the look and our PB set proper expectations.

The industry issue is that PB's don't tell users that it is quite possible there will be some mottling, streaking or discoloration. So the consumer's expectations are unreasonably high. So lower your expectations and all will be good. Unfortunately, you pool is done so that's too late. It also sounds crass, but its more like handmade art than, say, a car's finish, which is assembly line produced.

Click View next to the Mottling section.

Pool Technical Documents - SGM, Inc.

2013-05-27 18.40.59 - TFP.JPG

• bmoreswim
• Jul 3, 2013

 

[Dirk]

Though that is possibly more likely due to the variety of ingredients in the mix.

I just want to point out the difference between @bmoreswim's explanation of what might have happened vs mine.

If your pebble is like mine, there was not one color applied. It's not like house paint or even colored concrete. Rather, it is the plaster substrate overlaid with a mix of pebbles that are of several different colors. There may be a half dozen colors at work, all combining to produce the overall color effect. Now if clumps of one predominate color of pebbles collected in one area, and another clump of pebbles in another, that would produce mottling. That could be the luck of the draw, just the way the random mix of pebbles happened on site. They would have poured in x number of bags of pebbles of one color, and y number of bags of another, etc, according to a predetermined formula, and then sloshed them around to try and get an even mix, which may or may not have happened as well as it should. So be it. You got what you got and that could be considered the "industry standard" for a pebble finish. It's subjective as to whether that is acceptable or not, but if that's what happened, you'll have a tough time of convincing PebbleTec to do anything about it.

On the other hand, if what I described happened, where the mix of pebbles is fine, but how they reveal relative to the plaster substrate, then that is a different matter and occurred from a bad installation. No "luck of the draw" involved, just poor workmanship.

Which happened should be easy to determine, just by a visual inspection. Blotches of varying color look one way, and areas where pebbles are higher or lower in the plaster look entirely different.

Anywho, just pointing out what to look for when your installer and/or PebbleTec come calling to evaluate the finish.

By the way, the only fix for the white spec's, or the uneven pebble mixing, is to rip out the plaster and reinstall it. If you absolutely don't want to go through that, then the solution is to accept the finish and live with it.

If the problem is the poor pebble reveal, it's possible that can be addressed manually. But it would require some diligent skill to make it right (spot applying acid or manual abrasion or both). If your evaluation results include the words "acid wash," then politely tell them you'll think about it and come on back for an explanation why that is not likely an acceptable solution.

But it sounds like your next steps are on track, keep us posted and good luck.

 

[lovelaguna2]

I just want to point out the difference between @bmoreswim's explanation of what might have happened vs mine.

If your pebble is like mine, there was not one color applied. It's not like house paint or even colored concrete. Rather, it is the plaster substrate overlaid with a mix of pebbles that are of several different colors. There may be a half dozen colors at work, all combining to produce the overall color effect. Now if clumps of one predominate color of pebbles collected in one area, and another clump of pebbles in another, that would produce mottling. That could be the luck of the draw, just the way the random mix of pebbles happened on site. They would have poured in x number of bags of pebbles of one color, and y number of bags of another, etc, according to a predetermined formula, and then sloshed them around to try and get an even mix, which may or may not have happened as well as it should. So be it. You got what you got and that could be considered the "industry standard" for a pebble finish. It's subjective as to whether that is acceptable or not, but if that's what happened, you'll have a tough time of convincing PebbleTec to do anything about it.

On the other hand, if what I described happened, where the mix of pebbles is fine, but how they reveal relative to the plaster substrate, then that is a different matter and occurred from a bad installation. No "luck of the draw" involved, just poor workmanship.

Which happened should be easy to determine, just by a visual inspection. Blotches of varying color look one way, and areas where pebbles are higher or lower in the plaster look entirely different.

Anywho, just pointing out what to look for when your installer and/or PebbleTec come calling to evaluate the finish.

By the way, the only fix for the white spec's, or the uneven pebble mixing, is to rip out the plaster and reinstall it. If you absolutely don't want to go through that, then the solution is to accept the finish and live with it.

If the problem is the poor pebble reveal, it's possible that can be addressed manually. But it would require some diligent skill to make it right (spot applying acid or manual abrasion or both). If your evaluation results include the words "acid wash," then politely tell them you'll think about it and come on back for an explanation why that is not likely an acceptable solution.

But it sounds like your next steps are on track, keep us posted and good luck.

Thank you Dirk. The explanation makes a great deal of sense and I do think we are dealing with an issue more closely related to what you described. We're going to see how things play out over the next couple of weeks and will be back with either more questions or the results.

 

[lovelaguna2]

Our pool was a plaster day brew of portland cement, marcite and some Diamond Brite (which can also be installed by itself) in a black color to add coloration to the finish and make it grey, similar to french grey. The Diamond Brite is a quartz finish. There is clearly mottling. Though that is possibly more likely due to the variety of ingredients in the mix. However, SGM, the manufacturer of Diamond Brite, has a FAQ document which gets to the point. Some of the text is from industry bodies, other parts is from SGM. Bottom line is they all say, it's due to site conditions/installation procedures and is within norms. Different manufacturer but the issue is universal to plaster based finishes. In my picture below, it's a little hard to see, but anything that looks like mottling is mottling. Also there are broad arcs in the shallow area that aren't uncommon installation issues affecting aesthetics. We love the look and our PB set proper expectations.

The industry issue is that PB's don't tell users that it is quite possible there will be some mottling, streaking or discoloration. So the consumer's expectations are unreasonably high. So lower your expectations and all will be good. Unfortunately, you pool is done so that's too late. It also sounds crass, but its more like handmade art than, say, a car's finish, which is assembly line produced.

Click View next to the Mottling section.

Pool Technical Documents - SGM, Inc.

2013-05-27 18.40.59 - TFP.JPG

• bmoreswim
• Jul 3, 2013

Thank you for sharing the insights and information. It's helpful to understand the many different scenarios and hear recommendations on how to proceed. The more information we have, the better off we are. We appreciate the time the members of the site take to provide all the insights they do. It sure makes it easier for the newer pool owners to get more comfortable with their pool and experiences.
Your pool and setting with the trees and fence line are beautiful!

 

[bmoreswim]

Thank you for sharing the insights and information. It's helpful to understand the many different scenarios and hear recommendations on how to proceed. The more information we have, the better off we are. We appreciate the time the members of the site take to provide all the insights they do. It sure makes it easier for the newer pool owners to get more comfortable with their pool and experiences.
Your pool and setting with the trees and fence line are beautiful!

Thank you and best of luck with the least fun part of pool ownership. It only gets better!