New Owner Build Southwest Florida

[setsailsoon]

So are they saying they won't issue you a building permit? This is actually the language that was on the form I had to sign at the building department and get notarized to submit my Owner-Builder Permit Application. After this all I need to do is submit all the plans and other documents stamped by certified architect and/or engineers. This is all done online with electronic documents. Approval here takes about 2-3 weeks if you have everything in order.

Chris

 

[setsailsoon]

I searched the site that is in James' link and there's a form for Sarasota County as well. I attached it here. As I understand the statute you can use licensed contractors but you are not permitted to pay unlicensed contractors or personnel.

I hope this helps.

Chris

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I searched the site that is in James' link and there's a form for Sarasota County as well. I attached it here. As I understand the statute you can use licensed contractors but you are not permitted to pay unlicensed contractors or personnel.

I hope this helps.

Chris

The problem is that the higher up at the building dept is reading the 4th paragraph of that form and interpreting it to mean that you can only be an owner/builder if you are improving the “physical residence” and, in their interpretation, pools are not part of the residence. In effect, they are saying that if you want to pull permits for a pool build then only a licensed pool builder can do that. Obviously we all disagree with that interpretation but the the guy with the “APPROVED” stamp at the buildings office is the one holding all the cards.

To the OP - assuming you can get your O/B permit approved, do check with your homeowners insurance and ask about taking out a limited-time rider on your policy to cover construction related issues. You may have to pay a bit more in HO insurance for the duration of your build but it can protect you against workman comp claims or any accidental damage to your property during the pool construction. Without a rider covering you, your HO insurance would likely deny any claims against damage due to construction mishaps.

 

[setsailsoon]

Wow. Bureaucracy at it's finest! I was able to obtain a builder's risk policy from my agent for .45% of the construction value. I also require liability and workman's comp certificate from my contractors. My contracts expert says $1-2MM coverage is typical. They also have to furnish a "named insured" certificate for me prior to award.

Chris

 

[KCNM]

The problem is that the higher up at the building dept is reading the 4th paragraph of that form and interpreting it to mean that you can only be an owner/builder if you are improving the “physical residence” and, in their interpretation, pools are not part of the residence.

Which is incorrect, because in the Sarasota tax system, pools are listed as "features" to the residence.

Here's the first random residential property that came up with a search for pools:

https://www.sc-pa.com/propertysearch/parcel/details/0001040006

Would this person require that a shed be built by a licensed contractor too, because it's not attached to the main residence body?

 

[JamesW]

but the the guy with the “APPROVED” stamp at the buildings office is the one holding all the cards.

Not really.

Just because some low level bureaucrat makes a decision, it does not mean that that is the end of it.

There are plenty of ways to appeal the decision to someone who can overrule the original decision.

Just go back and apply again when there is a different person at the help desk.

Most likely, they will approve the permit.

If not, file an appeal, or appeals, as needed.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Which is incorrect, because in the Sarasota tax system, pools are listed as "features" to the residence.

Here's the first random residential property that came up with a search for pools:

https://www.sc-pa.com/propertysearch/parcel/details/0001040006

Would this person require that a shed be built by a licensed contractor too, because it's not attached to the main residence body?

Not really.

Just because some low level bureaucrat makes a decision, it does not mean that that is the end of it.

There are plenty of ways to appeal the decision to someone who can overrule the original decision.

Just go back and apply again when there is a different person at the help desk.

Most likely, they will approve the permit.

If not, file an appeal, or appeals, as needed.

I don’t disagree with either of you. I’m just stating the facts as presented. The OP obviously has to push back because this “higher up” is not reading the statute correctly. That said, it’s frustrating and will lead to time delays because local
Government always moves at a snail’s pace.

 

[KCNM]

I don’t disagree with either of you. I’m just stating the facts as presented. The OP obviously has to push back because this “higher up” is not reading the statute correctly. That said, it’s frustrating and will lead to time delays because local
Government always moves at a snail’s pace.

Sorry, I intended that to be supportive, not argumentative! I agree that the interpretation is wrong, and also agree that it's going to be interesting to figure out how to work around the issue. Definitely triggers my "too much time for too little reward" spidey-senses. But it's not my money nor my pool so

 

[Gecrabill]

Wow. Bureaucracy at it's finest! I was able to obtain a builder's risk policy from my agent for .45% of the construction value. I also require liability and workman's comp certificate from my contractors. My contracts expert says $1-2MM coverage is typical. They also have to furnish a "named insured" certificate for me prior to award.

Chris

Thank you for this.

 

[Gecrabill]

Not really.

Just because some low level bureaucrat makes a decision, it does not mean that that is the end of it.

There are plenty of ways to appeal the decision to someone who can overrule the original decision.

Just go back and apply again when there is a different person at the help desk.

Most likely, they will approve the permit.

If not, file an appeal, or appeals, as needed.

Thank you for this, I am not up 2 levels to "manager of inspection services", I believe I still have a few more levels to go. I appreciate all the feedback and have used it in composing my emails.

 

[Gecrabill]

I searched the site that is in James' link and there's a form for Sarasota County as well. I attached it here. As I understand the statute you can use licensed contractors but you are not permitted to pay unlicensed contractors or personnel.

I hope this helps.

Chris

Yes, I filled out the owner builder affadavit. They accepted my plans for permit, however my sub forms require a "licensed pool contractor" as one of the subs.

 

[JamesW]

In most states, there is no separate license to be a pool builder.

Most states only require a contractor's license.

A builder in Florida is required to have a Florida Residential Pool Contractor License.

 

[JamesW]

In most states, pool building is not a separate subspecialty that requires a separate license.

Things like gas, HVAC, electrical etc. require a specialty license.

Florida seems to be different in that they require a specialty license for pool building.

Section 489.113, Florida Statutes, provides guidance in the analysis.

As a basic requirement, a general contractor must subcontract all electrical, mechanical, plumbing, roofing, sheet metal, swimming pool, and air-conditioning work.

The CGC does not have to subcontract if he/she holds a state certificate or registration in the respective sub-trade category.

Swimming Pools

A general contractor’s work on a swimming pool has been the subject of some debate.

Basically, a general contractor shall not be required to subcontract structural swimming pool work.

This has been interpreted to mean that if the pool shell is part of the structure, then a general contractor may perform the work.

If the pool shell is not part of the structure, then the work must be subcontracted.

All other swimming pool work shall be subcontracted to an appropriately licensed certified or registered swimming pool contractor.

Work A General Contractor Can Self-Perform In Florida

IIn Florida, Construction Work is defined by what the contractor can contract to do and what the scope of their licenses allows them to actually perform. This blog discusses limitations and allowances for the Florida certified general contractor.

www.jimersonfirm.com

So, most likely, all work that requires a specialty license will require the work to be done by a contractor that holds the necessary specialty license, which means that you will likely need a subcontractor that holds a Florida Residential Pool Contractor License.

 

[Gecrabill]

Which subcontractors were you required to submit forms for?

 

[JamesW]

http://sarasota.floridahealth.gov/programs-and-services/environmental-health/pools-and-spas/_documents/pool-contractor-licensing-information.pdf

Swimming Pool Service Licenses and Certifications

There are 3 classes of swimming pool contractors: class A,B and C.

Class A is a COMMERCIAL POOL & SPA CONTRACTOR. This license type is unlimited in the pool industry. (Commercial and residential pools.)

Class B is a RESIDENTIAL POOL & SPA CONTRACTOR. Limited to residential pool building and major repairs (can pull permits for residential pools) and can do anything a class C license is allowed to do.

Class C is a SWIMMING POOL/SPA SERVICING CONTRACTOR. Limited to the non-structural repair and equipment servicing of pools. They cannot build a pool. Cannot pull a permit.

A contractor can hold a state license or a local license.

A Certified Pool Contractor (CPC) is a state license that allows you to work in any county or municipality.

These licenses are obtained through the state Department of Business and Professional Regulation (DBPR).

There are 3 levels of a CPC license:

1) CPC-Commercial (class A)

2) CPC- Residential (class B)

3) CPC- Service (class C)

A Registered Pool Contractor license (RP) is a local license that allows you to work in only in Sarasota County.

These licenses are obtained through the county licensing board.

There are 3 levels of RP license:

1) RP-Commercial (class A)

2) RP- Residential (class B)

3) RP- Service (class C)

For more information or to apply for and CPC license go to the state web site at:

MyFloridaLicense.com – License efficiently. Regulate fairly.

www.myfloridalicense.com

For more information or to apply for and RP license go to the county web site at:

Sarasota County, FL | Home

Click on Permitting/Permit Status on the left side of the web page and scroll click on Licensing Hub (about halfway down the page) to get all of the information needed to apply for a local pool contractor’s license.

Pool Service Technicians are NOT licensed contractors!

A technician is qualified to do basic pool service such as cleaning the pool and filters, adjusting pool water chemistry.

ALL REPAIRS AND SERVICES THAT INVOLVE PLUMBING OR ELECTRICAL WORK ON POOL EQUIPMENT MUST BE DONE BY A LICENSED POOL CONTRACTOR.

According to Florida Statute 489.128, an owner has the right to refuse payment for services provided by unlicensed contractors.

In addition, Sarasota County Code Enforcement can issue a citation for $500 to any individual working as an unlicensed contractor.

If you do not qualify to take a contractor’s license exam you may become a pool service technician instead.

A pool service technician course of 16 hours or more is required by the Florida Administrative Code 64E-9 for an individual to provide routine pool service to commercial pools and spas.

For a list of state or national pool service courses go to the Department of Health (DOH) web site at:

http://www.doh.state.fl.us/environment/water/swim

If a service technician works for a licensed pool contractor, the Sarasota County Health Department allows the technician to take a local 8 hour course, rather than a 16 hour course.

The Health Department’s “Pool School” certificate DOES NOT ALLOW a service person to do repairs or operate an independent pool service business.

For more information about the county pool school call 861-6675.

A certification is NOT the same thing as a license.

Highest to lowest ranking based on the scope of work allowed on swimming pools:

1) CPC Commercial license (A) - can do work on any pool in all counties

2) CPC Residential license (B)

3) CPC Service license (C)

4) RP Commercial license (A)

5) RP Residential license (B)

6) RP Service license (C)

7) National service technician certification (such as an AFO, NSPF CPO, etc)

8) County Health Department technician certification- can clean commercial pools under a licensed contractor.

9) Residential pool service technician

If you are interested in starting your own pool service business you will find important information at the following professional organizations:

National Swimming Pool Foundation (NSPF) Home

Association of Pool & Spa Professionals (ASPS) Home

Florida Swimming Pool Association (FSPA) FSPA Home Page for Consumers

It looks like you will need a subcontractor that holds a CPC- Residential (class B) (State) or a RP- Residential (class B) (Sarasota) license.

You will also need subcontractors who hold specialty licenses for any work on gas (gas line plumbing and gas heater), electrical, HVAC (heat pump), plumbing etc.

 

[Gecrabill]

As I move through this Journey I may start a new thread. But for now a question regarding subs: I have layout, dig, steel being quoted with some rough plumbing. Is it typical for them to ask for a % up front? ie: they are asking for 25% up front. I figured most subs would require payment right after doing the work?- thanks

 

[KCNM]

Most subs are typically working with a company and an established business relationship. I think asking for a down payment commitment for scheduling is probably to be expected when they're working with a completely unknown entity.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

As I move through this Journey I may start a new thread. But for now a question regarding subs: I have layout, dig, steel being quoted with some rough plumbing. Is it typical for them to ask for a % up front? ie: they are asking for 25% up front. I figured most subs would require payment right after doing the work?- thanks

Please do not start a new thread when the topics are all related to your pool build.

Keep all of your questions here because it makes it much more complicated for mods, experts, and guides to help you if they have to go searching the forum for all of your posts.

After your build is complete and your pool is operational, then you can post new threads. But for now, keep everything here.

 

[AQUA~HOLICS]

In California it’s $1,000 or 10% whichever is less.

 

[JamesW]

Just like you worry about the contractor taking the money and not doing what they promise, the contractor worries that the homeowner won’t pay the invoice when the work is completed.

The contractor incurs a lot of risk by doing the job with no money upfront because they have many expenses in material, labor and lost opportunity.

Below is from California, but it has a lot of good information.

Contractors cannot ask for a deposit of more than 10 percent of the total cost of the job or $1,000, whichever is less.* (This applies to any home improvement project, including swimming pools.)

* There is an exception to this rule for contractors who have filed a blanket performance and payment bond with CSLB’s Registrar.

This information is noted on the contractor’s license detail page on CSLB’s website.

https://www.cslb.ca.gov/resources/guidesandpublications/wyskpamphlet.pdf

Below is specific to Florida.

How to Protect Yourself: Contractors

Source: The Florida Attorney General's Office

Complaints against contracting companies run the gamut from firms that take consumers’ money for services which are never provided to firms that advertise cheap services who then try to “up-sell” new systems or pricey repairs.

Consider the following when hiring a contractor to perform a home repair or remodel:

Get multiple estimates.

Get at least three written, itemized estimates or bids on repairs or remodels.

Have your insurance company evaluate any damage to your home before arranging repairs to ensure that the work will be covered under your policy.

Watch for red flags.

Be wary of anyone who approaches you unsolicited or says they can perform home repairs at a discount with leftover supplies from another job.

Additionally, consider it a warning sign if a contractor uses high pressure sales tactics.

A reputable contractor will recognize that you will need time to consider your options and needs.

If you choose to finance the work done in your home, make sure you read and understand all of the loan documents before you sign them.

Understand how much you will be required to pay up front, what your monthly payments will be and how much you will be required to pay over the life of the loan before signing.

Research the company thoroughly before signing a contract or providing a deposit.

When searching for a contractor, ask trusted friends and neighbors for references.

You should check with the Better Business Bureau at www.bbb.org to determine what others are saying about the company.

Additionally, you should contact the state Department of Business & Professional Regulation (DBPR) to determine whether the contractor has any complaints lodged against them at (850) 487-1395.

Verify the contractor is licensed and insured.

Verify that the contractor has a license from the Florida Department of Business & Professional Regulation for the type of work you wish to have performed at www.myfloridalicense.com.

If the county has its own licensure requirements, verify any county license with the applicable construction licensing board.

Check for proof of insurance and verify with the insurer that their policy is current. Additionally, you should check to see if the contractor is bonded and verify with the bonding agency.

Read and understand the contract.

Read the entire contract, including the fine print, before signing and ensure that the contract includes the required “buyer’s right to cancel” (within 3 days) language.

Never pay the full amount of a repair up front and hesitate before providing large deposits.

Florida law requires a contractor to apply for a permit within 30 days and start work within 90 days if he collects more than 10 percent of the contract up front.

Know what you will be expected to pay, how long the work is expected to take and what will happen should the costs or repair times exceed the estimates.

Ensure there are no liens placed on your home.

Homeowners may unknowingly have liens placed against their properties by suppliers or subcontractors who have not been paid by the contractor.

If the contractor fails to pay them, the liens will remain on the title.

Insist on releases of any liens that could be placed on the property from all subcontractors prior to making final payments.

Do not sign a certificate of completion or make a final payment until you are satisfied with the work performed.

File a complaint.

If you wish to file a complaint against a contractor, you may contact the Department of Business & Professional Regulation online at www.myfloridalicense.com or by phone at (850) 487-1395.

Additionally, you should file a complaint with the Attorney General’s Office online at www.myfloridalegal.com or by phone toll-free at 1-866-9-NO-SCAM.

You may also file a complaint with the Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services, which acts as the State's consumer complaint clearinghouse, at www.floridaconsumerhelp.com.

How to Protect Yourself: Contractors | My Florida Legal

myfloridalegal.com

Maybe negotiate a 10% deposit or ask for a performance and payment bond if they want more than 10% up front as a deposit.

Beyond the deposit, you also have to look at the schedule of payments.

For example, they might ask for a small deposit, but ask for a 25% payment after doing some minor phase of the work.

Are they asking for 25% up front and then 75% at completion or are there other interim payments?