Would be curious is the one bad handrail has a bonding wire attached or not and if the good one has the wire. One may have broken (or never been installed. Also may not be easily accessible, I’ve never tried to remove those anchors. But at least you have something to go on.
New here. Slight shock when touching pool water, etc. Any suggestions? Things to look for?
- Thread starter Barry321
- Start date
I did try to remove that one handrail to look to see if i could tell and i cant get it up.
MITBeta
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- May 28, 2020
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- Pool Size
- 13000
- Surface
- Vinyl
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool RJ-45 Plus
I'm presuming all voltages were AC.
- By any chance, do you have any overhead high voltage lines (the big towers)? They could be inducing a current without any direct contact.
- Is your water table close to the bottom of the pool? Someone's nearby well pump could be improperly installed.
- Ring voltages on phone lines are on the order of 70V. Ah, here's an interesting page that shows different kinds of ring voltages and their waveforms. If you you can get someone to scope the voltage, you might narrow things down if it isn't the standard 60 Hz sine wave. (And, if it is standard, then you can probably rule out the phone cable.)
- Electrified fences nearby?
- Underground utilities? I meant for the neighborhood. But if you have any buried utilities to your house (electrical, phone, cable, internet), they could be a source.
I think he means voltage measurement between the handrail and “what”. Is the water where the other meter probe is?
yes, AC voltage
No powerlines overhead or in backyard. No other electrical connections in the backyard except for pool pump and pool light. Again though, with house breaker turned off, there was still 4 volts on that handrail while touching water.
No electric fences. No temporary lights strung up. No outdoor tv. No speaker wire.
Power is underground out near the road at front of house. That's a good 100 yards away from my pool.
One neighbor has some outdoor speakers and a hot tub on his deck but he's about 150 yards away from my pool.
My best guess is it could be coming from that old phone lion that was cut when they dug my pool. I am not sure how much of the phone cord they took up. I remember seeing at least a 10 foot section laying in my yard and I simply tossed it in the garbage. The guy that dug it said it was an old cord that the phone company didn't use anymore. Cutting it didn't impact any of my neighbors so I tend to agree this was just an old cord that had been there for years and years before the subdivision was built. My guess is that if it was that phone cord, it would impact more than just the one handrail like the metal coping strip next to the handrail.
Regardless, attaching the bond wire to the one handrail seems to have reduced the voltage down to under 0.5 volts and nearly the same as the other handrail when I place a lead on it and place one in the pool water.
I'm assuming that under 0.5 volts should be acceptable- with some of the measurements coming in around 0.25 volts.
All the voltages I am measuring now around the pool is less than 0.5 volts. They aren't all exactly the same but they are under that level.
is that normal? or is it all supposed to be 0 volts no matter where you measure?
Oh sorry- Yes
I place the red lead on the handrail in various spots and stick the black lead into the water near the steps entering my pool and measure the AC voltage on my multi meter. I am assuming that is a good way to measure. If it matters, I place the black lead in the water first, then touch the handrail in several spots with the red lead).
The reading was about 4 volts at one handrail when I did that- and less than 1 on the other handrail.
Now that I have loosely (temporarily so I can do my tests) strung up the bonding wire to that higher voltage handrail and ran it over to my pool pump ground screw, the reading at that one handrail is now less than 0.5 volts - still slightly higher than the other handrail but both are less than 0.5 volts (instead of one being 4 volts and the other being less than 0.5 volts)
Some things to consider. Stray voltages in the ground could be coming from an old electrical line or they could just be stray voltages coming from moisture and various elements underground. I had a heck of a time finding a stray voltage source in a truck radiator that was corroding the metal solder joints and causing it to leak within weeks. Turns out just filling the radiator with plain water while it was still in the cardboard box caused a voltage to be induced between the water and the metal radiator body. The fix was grounding the radiator to the vehicle ground.
I say that to just help you not get freaked out that there’s some old electrical line buried that’s causing this. It COULD be that but could also just be the physics of your dirt.
Another interesting test would be to disconnect the bond wire at your pool pad (with pool electrical breakers shut off!) and go measure again. That may tell you if your homes electrical system is allowing some voltage through on the ground wire. Even if the breaker is off, the ground path is still there and disconnecting the bond wire “temporarily” would help confirm the voltage is either coming from the area around the pool or your home. A more thourogh test like that would involve completely disconnecting the wires from the pool equipment and that would totally isolate the pool, but that’s more involved and maybe you get lucky with the bond wire check first.
I will try this just to check. Might as well. I've tested nearly everything possible so this sounds like it's worth a try. It might be Saturday before I have a chance to do it though.
Do the under 1volt levels (more like under 1/2 volt) I am getting now with the temporary bond wire wrapped around my one handrail and running over to the bonding screw on my pump sound like it's ok to you?
I don’t have a specific knowledge of what voltage is ok and not ok. 4 volts does seem like an abnormal
amount and given that you could feel it seems to confirm that. Would be interesting to check on it over time to see if the 4V was constant or whether it just happened to build up to 4V over a period of time. Have you undone the wire and measured again to see if the 4V is back? If it was a static charge buildup the voltage may have dissipated while you grounded it to the other rail and then will stay low but build up again over time. If it’s right back at 4V and stays at 4V over time, that would seem to point to some source other than static/galvanic action. If that’s the case my guess would be source from outside the naturally occurring ground voltage but that’s just a guess.
Sorry for all the questions and experiments, but isolating the problem to a specific area helps narrow down the possibilities.
The original poster has said it is AC. This isn't a DC voltage that builds up over time or due to some galvanic difference between two substances.
You say "before the subdivision was built", yet there was a buried phone line. Either someone dumped trash (incl. the phone line) there, or that phone line went somewhere. If you have an idea of the two ends (pole to structure), maybe you can look for wires running down into the ground at a telephone pole. Just because the house end of the line wasn't in use any more, doesn't mean that the utility end isn't still powered. If there are any wires that go down into the ground, you could ask the utility company to send out one of the guys who traces underground wires to see if any of the lines go onto your property, and where. (The guy that installed the pool should have had them check for buried utilities where he was digging! If you don't know he did, then he probably didn't.)
If I understand you correctly, one end of the pool shows a higher voltage than the other end. That seems likely that the source of the voltage is nearer the higher-voltage end.
It sounds like you've done due diligence looking for electrical grid sources. I'd swing back to the possibility that phone line had ring voltage on it, and one ripped-up end is just a few feet from your pool. I'd find someone who can look at the voltage with an oscilloscope to confirm/deny it is from a phone line (see earlier message for the different waveforms).
If your area loses power (black out), but the voltage is still there, then it is likely due to a utility (phone, cable, internet) where they have a battery backup and continue to provide power on their lines when the power from the grid is out.
Good luck.
You say "before the subdivision was built", yet there was a buried phone line. Either someone dumped trash (incl. the phone line) there, or that phone line went somewhere. If you have an idea of the two ends (pole to structure), maybe you can look for wires running down into the ground at a telephone pole. Just because the house end of the line wasn't in use any more, doesn't mean that the utility end isn't still powered. If there are any wires that go down into the ground, you could ask the utility company to send out one of the guys who traces underground wires to see if any of the lines go onto your property, and where. (The guy that installed the pool should have had them check for buried utilities where he was digging! If you don't know he did, then he probably didn't.)
If I understand you correctly, one end of the pool shows a higher voltage than the other end. That seems likely that the source of the voltage is nearer the higher-voltage end.
It sounds like you've done due diligence looking for electrical grid sources. I'd swing back to the possibility that phone line had ring voltage on it, and one ripped-up end is just a few feet from your pool. I'd find someone who can look at the voltage with an oscilloscope to confirm/deny it is from a phone line (see earlier message for the different waveforms).
If your area loses power (black out), but the voltage is still there, then it is likely due to a utility (phone, cable, internet) where they have a battery backup and continue to provide power on their lines when the power from the grid is out.
Good luck.
He also said he just bought the multimeter and so maybe not very experienced with it so Id agree it’d be good to confirm it really is AC. Maybe try measuring with the multimeter in both modes just to confirm.
Ok. I wrapped the 8 gauge copper wire around base on one handrail and ran it through the concrete expansion joint to the edge of concrete and then ran through the ground and back to the base of the other handrail though the expansion joint.
mutli meter AC voltage is measuring less than 0.25 volts now on each when i place red lead on handrail and black lead in the water.
mutli meter AC voltage is measuring less than 0.25 volts now on each when i place red lead on handrail and black lead in the water.
Multiple kids in pool yesterday. No reports of shock or tingling.
multi meter testing .7 volts on one handrail, about .5 on the other.
multi meter testing .7 volts on one handrail, about .5 on the other.