Should i notice the shaving cream being sucked in from outside the PVC or will I notice in the filter top? Im afraid the water is so turbulent that I might not not see the coloration
New Here- Air In Pump!
- Thread starter Knighaw
- Start date
By any chance is this valve also tied to the main drain? Is your main drain opened or closed?
The valve explanation is a little confusing and what I am wondering is if you are closing off your main drain and putting the entire suction at the strainer. A skimmer basket with air is usually one with too much suction.
When you get air in you also loose flow and that will allow the pump to prime again. But once it reestablishes flow it will draw right back down. Also, is your cleaner hose completely full of water when you connect it?
The valve explanation is a little confusing and what I am wondering is if you are closing off your main drain and putting the entire suction at the strainer. A skimmer basket with air is usually one with too much suction.
When you get air in you also loose flow and that will allow the pump to prime again. But once it reestablishes flow it will draw right back down. Also, is your cleaner hose completely full of water when you connect it?
Pchase-
The main drain at the bottom of the pool was closed shut many years ago before I bought the house. So yes the entire suction is on the strainer but thats how it has been for a long time.
Also yes the cleaner hose is full of water.
Dont know if this helps or not but the most air out of the return is right when i turn the pump on then alot of bubbles come out every 2 to 3 seconds afterwards
The main drain at the bottom of the pool was closed shut many years ago before I bought the house. So yes the entire suction is on the strainer but thats how it has been for a long time.
Also yes the cleaner hose is full of water.
Dont know if this helps or not but the most air out of the return is right when i turn the pump on then alot of bubbles come out every 2 to 3 seconds afterwards
New development- I noticed over night that it leaked about 1/2" over the last 12-14 hours, does this confirm there is a leak under the cement?
Any advice on how to proceed?
Any advice on how to proceed?
Let me see if I have this correct.
1) You have a direct line from the skimmer to the pump and there is a valve there. If that valve is fully open, you will suck down into the strainer basket and pump air. If you close it a bit, the water level in the basket will come up and you won't pump air.
2) You have another line from the main drain to the pump and that has a separate valve. That valve is shut.
3) When you connect the suction cleaner up, you lose prime and (skimmer? or pump?) becomes empty of water.
If this is correct and #3 is the pump becomes empty, my first thought is with the main drain closed off, that is likely a known leak in that line. This would make sense if that valve to the main drain was not completely off where:
1) you have good suction to the skimmer because it is creating enough suction to vortex on a full pool
2) When you create a restriction to the skimmer with the valve, it reduces the flow and the vortex goes away
3) When you plug in the cleaner, the added loss on the suction cleaner would pull harder from the main drain line
4) The reason you don't see this with the pressure loss at the valve, but with the loss from the cleaner is the valve is at the pump and doesn't impose the added pressure from the main drain line like the cleaner would.
5) That kind of pressure from the cleaner could have increased or started the problem.
6) You believe to have a leak you can not see and could be in the main drain line where there is already a known leak that would be far underground.
1) You have a direct line from the skimmer to the pump and there is a valve there. If that valve is fully open, you will suck down into the strainer basket and pump air. If you close it a bit, the water level in the basket will come up and you won't pump air.
2) You have another line from the main drain to the pump and that has a separate valve. That valve is shut.
3) When you connect the suction cleaner up, you lose prime and (skimmer? or pump?) becomes empty of water.
If this is correct and #3 is the pump becomes empty, my first thought is with the main drain closed off, that is likely a known leak in that line. This would make sense if that valve to the main drain was not completely off where:
1) you have good suction to the skimmer because it is creating enough suction to vortex on a full pool
2) When you create a restriction to the skimmer with the valve, it reduces the flow and the vortex goes away
3) When you plug in the cleaner, the added loss on the suction cleaner would pull harder from the main drain line
4) The reason you don't see this with the pressure loss at the valve, but with the loss from the cleaner is the valve is at the pump and doesn't impose the added pressure from the main drain line like the cleaner would.
5) That kind of pressure from the cleaner could have increased or started the problem.
6) You believe to have a leak you can not see and could be in the main drain line where there is already a known leak that would be far underground.
Pchase, Thank you so much for the help, see below:
1) You have a direct line from the skimmer to the pump and there is a valve there. If that valve is fully open, you will suck down into the strainer basket and pump air. If you close it a bit, the water level in the basket will come up and you won't pump air. That is correct!
2) You have another line from the main drain to the pump and that has a separate valve. That valve is shut. I do not have a main drain line anymore that I know of, the drain is sealed and only one line goes to the pump and that is the skimmer(unless they connect under the concrete)
3) When you connect the suction cleaner up, you lose prime and (skimmer? or pump?) becomes empty of water. Correct i lose prime and pump become nearly empty
If this is correct and #3 is the pump becomes empty, my first thought is with the main drain closed off, that is likely a known leak in that line. This would make sense if that valve to the main drain was not completely off where:
1) you have good suction to the skimmer because it is creating enough suction to vortex on a full pool
2) When you create a restriction to the skimmer with the valve, it reduces the flow and the vortex goes away
3) When you plug in the cleaner, the added loss on the suction cleaner would pull harder from the main drain line
4) The reason you don't see this with the pressure loss at the valve, but with the loss from the cleaner is the valve is at the pump and doesn't impose the added pressure from the main drain line like the cleaner would.
5) That kind of pressure from the cleaner could have increased or started the problem.
6) You believe to have a leak you can not see and could be in the main drain line where there is already a known leak that would be far underground.
If the leak is in the main drain which is no longer in use how would i disconnect it completely from the system? The only line i see looks to come directly from skimmer
1) You have a direct line from the skimmer to the pump and there is a valve there. If that valve is fully open, you will suck down into the strainer basket and pump air. If you close it a bit, the water level in the basket will come up and you won't pump air. That is correct!
2) You have another line from the main drain to the pump and that has a separate valve. That valve is shut. I do not have a main drain line anymore that I know of, the drain is sealed and only one line goes to the pump and that is the skimmer(unless they connect under the concrete)
3) When you connect the suction cleaner up, you lose prime and (skimmer? or pump?) becomes empty of water. Correct i lose prime and pump become nearly empty
If this is correct and #3 is the pump becomes empty, my first thought is with the main drain closed off, that is likely a known leak in that line. This would make sense if that valve to the main drain was not completely off where:
1) you have good suction to the skimmer because it is creating enough suction to vortex on a full pool
2) When you create a restriction to the skimmer with the valve, it reduces the flow and the vortex goes away
3) When you plug in the cleaner, the added loss on the suction cleaner would pull harder from the main drain line
4) The reason you don't see this with the pressure loss at the valve, but with the loss from the cleaner is the valve is at the pump and doesn't impose the added pressure from the main drain line like the cleaner would.
5) That kind of pressure from the cleaner could have increased or started the problem.
6) You believe to have a leak you can not see and could be in the main drain line where there is already a known leak that would be far underground.
If the leak is in the main drain which is no longer in use how would i disconnect it completely from the system? The only line i see looks to come directly from skimmer
Reply
The valve to the skimmer is definitely a 2-way on one line?
Is there any way to get a photo of your set-up around the pump with the piping and valve arrangements? And is your pump sealed well with lube? Just want to be sure on the easy stuff.
The two things I am wondering about is the strong suction you have at to the skimmer and when you plug that off you immediately lose prime. That would seem to indicate a problem much closer to the pump.
Is there any way to get a photo of your set-up around the pump with the piping and valve arrangements? And is your pump sealed well with lube? Just want to be sure on the easy stuff.
The two things I am wondering about is the strong suction you have at to the skimmer and when you plug that off you immediately lose prime. That would seem to indicate a problem much closer to the pump.
Do you think the original main drain line ties into the only one i see? (sorry for the awful drawing)
Those pics are pretty hard to see and I can't make out the text. First looks like slope to pump, but can't tell on the other two. Also can you pull it back a little bit to see more of the equipment.
Also, to clarify, when referring to the main drain, that would be the suction line from the bottom of the pool like in this picture. You have the main drain at the bottom and skimmers at the sides.
Also, to clarify, when referring to the main drain, that would be the suction line from the bottom of the pool like in this picture. You have the main drain at the bottom and skimmers at the sides.
View attachment 49825
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View attachment 49826
Sorry can get the picture to be larger for some reason. The main drain is shut off so this is only line coming into pump... Could the old main drain line tie into this before it came out of the rock?
- - - Updated - - -
View attachment 49826
Sorry can get the picture to be larger for some reason. The main drain is shut off so this is only line coming into pump... Could the old main drain line tie into this before it came out of the rock?
Those links didn't work, but let's check a few other things.
First, make sure there is a leak and the pool is truly dropping because I've had similar symptoms before. Fill a bucket and mark the water level and compare to the pool drop to be sure it isn't evaporation.
When you connect the cleaner you lose prime at the pump, but still have water in the skimmer? (This is unlike the situation where you have the valve open and you vortex down into the skimmer introducing air there?) When you say immediate, it's right when you connect it, correct?
The reason why I ask as this gives an indication where the air is getting in. If it takes several seconds, it may be out in the yard. If it is right away, it is at the pump. I can say that if I closed my main drain all the way and tried to vacuum, I would get a large air pocket in my pump from the high suction pressure. The reason why it wouldn't happen until you started the cleaner is because the suction pressure is a lot more negative at the pump when you connect it than when you don't. It could be the difference of leaking by at the lid or not.
Those links didn't work, but let's check a few other things.
First, make sure there is a leak and the pool is truly dropping because I've had similar symptoms before. Fill a bucket and mark the water level and compare to the pool drop to be sure it isn't evaporation.- Thanks! Will try this tonight
When you connect the cleaner you lose prime at the pump, but still have water in the skimmer? (This is unlike the situation where you have the valve open and you vortex down into the skimmer introducing air there?) When you say immediate, it's right when you connect it, correct?Yes I lose prime at the pump, the skimmer never loses water. Yes it is almost immediately when i connect it. maybe 1 second. Also when i turn on the pump to begin (no cleaner attached), a large amount of air comes out of the return making the water bubble a lot in the pool for about 2 to 3 seconds.
The reason why I ask as this gives an indication where the air is getting in. If it takes several seconds, it may be out in the yard. If it is right away, it is at the pump. I can say that if I closed my main drain all the way and tried to vacuum, I would get a large air pocket in my pump from the high suction pressure. The reason why it wouldn't happen until you started the cleaner is because the suction pressure is a lot more negative at the pump when you connect it than when you don't. It could be the difference of leaking by at the lid or not.. The lid seems as tight as possible as i have a brand new gasket and lid. The only thing i haven't done is lube the gasket, but i cant try that. I have also tried the shaving cream test on all joints,lid and plus with none of them sucking it in the system.
Also one thing ive noticed today- with the pump on the air bubbles come out in spurts, about every 2 seconds- if it had an air leak wouldnt it be constant?
First, make sure there is a leak and the pool is truly dropping because I've had similar symptoms before. Fill a bucket and mark the water level and compare to the pool drop to be sure it isn't evaporation.- Thanks! Will try this tonight
When you connect the cleaner you lose prime at the pump, but still have water in the skimmer? (This is unlike the situation where you have the valve open and you vortex down into the skimmer introducing air there?) When you say immediate, it's right when you connect it, correct?Yes I lose prime at the pump, the skimmer never loses water. Yes it is almost immediately when i connect it. maybe 1 second. Also when i turn on the pump to begin (no cleaner attached), a large amount of air comes out of the return making the water bubble a lot in the pool for about 2 to 3 seconds.
The reason why I ask as this gives an indication where the air is getting in. If it takes several seconds, it may be out in the yard. If it is right away, it is at the pump. I can say that if I closed my main drain all the way and tried to vacuum, I would get a large air pocket in my pump from the high suction pressure. The reason why it wouldn't happen until you started the cleaner is because the suction pressure is a lot more negative at the pump when you connect it than when you don't. It could be the difference of leaking by at the lid or not.. The lid seems as tight as possible as i have a brand new gasket and lid. The only thing i haven't done is lube the gasket, but i cant try that. I have also tried the shaving cream test on all joints,lid and plus with none of them sucking it in the system.
Also one thing ive noticed today- with the pump on the air bubbles come out in spurts, about every 2 seconds- if it had an air leak wouldnt it be constant?
Did the bucket test and the pool is definitely leaking unfortunately....
Do pool companies have a tool where they can test a line to see where a leak would be?
Do pool companies have a tool where they can test a line to see where a leak would be?
Darn.
With a small leak I could see how there would be bubble every 2-3 seconds where there may be some high spots. The air accumulates and then pushes through when the volume is enough. Especially if you are referring to coming out the return. Do you see the same thing in the pump?
Is there a level where the pool drawdown will stop when the pump is off? That will at least tell you the height of the leak. You could then give the water line a good inspection for the pool itself and maybe eliminate some of the piping. I'm not sure about leak detection for pools, but have used both sonic and a camera on municipal water pipelines. But some of that is more narrowing it down to a general area. But at this point I wouldn't treat the leak as it is for sure your air problem as you could easily have a leak elsewhere and still have a separate suction issue, especially in a pool from the 50s.
I say this because we see strong suction on normal pump operation. So I went out to my pool simulate what you are seeing. I have 2 skimmers, each with a dedicated 1 1/2" suction line and a 2" from the main drain. I started out at 11 psig with everything opened and then closed the main drain and one of the skimmers and it dropped to 7.5 psig with the entire pump running through one skimmer. I filled the pool yesterday and then got a huge rain storm last night and am over the top of the skimmer so no way to drop down into a vortex. But I am pretty sure I could get there at normal level 1/2 way up the skimmer opening. I then went out and connected my 50' 1 1/2" vacuum hose and the pressure dropped to 5 psi. At that point I get visible air looking through the pump lid and it is accumulating in the filter and I bleed it off. If I didn't do that it would go out the return jets.
So you can see a situation where I have a tight system and get air. Some of those seals can not overcome 6 psig + of suction pressure without letting something in and/or I'm exceeding the NPSH of the pump. And when I open things back up, it immediately returns to normal with zero air air looking through the pump lid, so once that suction pressure isn't as negative, no more air gets in.
The reason why I focus near the pump is because of the suction pressure changes and the timing. In the first scenario where I closed the valves, all the added head loss is in the skimmer line so all of the 3.5 psi of increased suction pressure is seen at the pump. There would be no difference at the skimmer and the difference in the line is anywhere from 0 - 3.5 psig. When the vacuum hose is connected, again the pump sees the entire suction pressure change. The strainer and the entire line up to that point would also pick up the extra 2.5 psig from the vacuum hose, so the change in my line is anywhere from 2.5 to 6 psig, where 6 is at the pump.
The other reason of the area near the pump is the timing of the air being almost immediate. If it was further away, there would be travel time. Pump lids and unions are going to have a difficult time sealing with those kinds of pressures and I would say almost impossibly so without lubrication on the seals.
With a small leak I could see how there would be bubble every 2-3 seconds where there may be some high spots. The air accumulates and then pushes through when the volume is enough. Especially if you are referring to coming out the return. Do you see the same thing in the pump?
Is there a level where the pool drawdown will stop when the pump is off? That will at least tell you the height of the leak. You could then give the water line a good inspection for the pool itself and maybe eliminate some of the piping. I'm not sure about leak detection for pools, but have used both sonic and a camera on municipal water pipelines. But some of that is more narrowing it down to a general area. But at this point I wouldn't treat the leak as it is for sure your air problem as you could easily have a leak elsewhere and still have a separate suction issue, especially in a pool from the 50s.
I say this because we see strong suction on normal pump operation. So I went out to my pool simulate what you are seeing. I have 2 skimmers, each with a dedicated 1 1/2" suction line and a 2" from the main drain. I started out at 11 psig with everything opened and then closed the main drain and one of the skimmers and it dropped to 7.5 psig with the entire pump running through one skimmer. I filled the pool yesterday and then got a huge rain storm last night and am over the top of the skimmer so no way to drop down into a vortex. But I am pretty sure I could get there at normal level 1/2 way up the skimmer opening. I then went out and connected my 50' 1 1/2" vacuum hose and the pressure dropped to 5 psi. At that point I get visible air looking through the pump lid and it is accumulating in the filter and I bleed it off. If I didn't do that it would go out the return jets.
So you can see a situation where I have a tight system and get air. Some of those seals can not overcome 6 psig + of suction pressure without letting something in and/or I'm exceeding the NPSH of the pump. And when I open things back up, it immediately returns to normal with zero air air looking through the pump lid, so once that suction pressure isn't as negative, no more air gets in.
The reason why I focus near the pump is because of the suction pressure changes and the timing. In the first scenario where I closed the valves, all the added head loss is in the skimmer line so all of the 3.5 psi of increased suction pressure is seen at the pump. There would be no difference at the skimmer and the difference in the line is anywhere from 0 - 3.5 psig. When the vacuum hose is connected, again the pump sees the entire suction pressure change. The strainer and the entire line up to that point would also pick up the extra 2.5 psig from the vacuum hose, so the change in my line is anywhere from 2.5 to 6 psig, where 6 is at the pump.
The other reason of the area near the pump is the timing of the air being almost immediate. If it was further away, there would be travel time. Pump lids and unions are going to have a difficult time sealing with those kinds of pressures and I would say almost impossibly so without lubrication on the seals.