swimcmp said:
Also if they can fix it, you should ask for additional warranty against more cracks forming. You dont need a general warranty just for this specific issue and for the repair looking bad after 5 years.
New fiberglass pool is full of cracks... HELP!
- Thread starter mcaswell
- Start date
Also if they can fix it, you should ask for additional warranty against more cracks forming. You dont need a general warranty just for this specific issue and for the repair looking bad after 5 years.
ouachita said:
I would think that too, but the builder was able to apply for the variance.
I was able to get home in time to go to the meeting, but after speaking with my attorney, it would do more harm than good for me to oppose the variance. Basically, how it works is that this particular problem (forget about the cracks for the moment, this is just talking about the setback issue) can be addressed in a very expensive way (moving the pool) or a very inexpensive way (getting a variance). If I were to oppose the variance, and it failed as a result, if we ended up in court over it later, the judge would not look favorably upon that (in other words, I have a duty to "mitigate the damages", by applying for and/or supporting a variance). It doesn't matter whether or not I want the variance... since it's a relatively small amount, a judge would say that I'm not going to be materially affected if the pool stays where it's at.
--Michael
Isaac-1 said:
True, and I'm trying very hard to balance my priorities. At the top of the list is to get a functional pool for my family... but that doesn't mean I'm willing to accept a defective installation that will likely be the source of chronic ongoing problems, and right now the builder and manufacturer are doing little to reassure me (outside of "just trust me, it will be fine"... uhhhh, no).
--Michael
As your attorney would likely say, if it isn't in writing, it hasn't been said.
The variance may yet be denied by the board but you can't be perceived as the one causing that since the pool's position isn't part of your main concern, just wood on the fire. It must be kept separate.
The repairs to the cracks are a totally separate issue and should be treated as such. If you have experts lined up that say pouring the apron is not a good idea and the installer insists on it anyway, have him sign a document that covers your tail.
Scott
The variance may yet be denied by the board but you can't be perceived as the one causing that since the pool's position isn't part of your main concern, just wood on the fire. It must be kept separate.
The repairs to the cracks are a totally separate issue and should be treated as such. If you have experts lined up that say pouring the apron is not a good idea and the installer insists on it anyway, have him sign a document that covers your tail.
Scott
Micheal, any updates on your predicament? I've been following your thread from the beginning and know what you're going through, having had a similar situation with a contractor when building a 2nd floor on our home. There will be no winners in this case. You've lost precious time and the contractor will probably lose both time and money. I've been impressed with your integrity throughout these tribulations, and your refusal to accept an inferior product. And yet you are quite reasonable and willing to compromise. Good luck, sometimes the good guys do win, and you are certainly one of those.
Tom
Tom
Still trudging through the process. As the days go by, the hope for a quick resolution is fading, and although having our family's summer plans destroyed is very difficult to cope with, we're coming to terms with it. I keep thinking that SURELY the builder will at some point either have a sudden infusion of ethics and step up to fix his company's substandard work, or come to the realization that I'm not going away, the evidence is overwhelmingly against him, and that he'll be financially much better off staying out of court and not dragging this out (the longer it goes on, the higher our loss of use damages and court costs/expert fees will be).
My lawyer and his have been going back and forth a bit, with the latest stance from the builder being that if these cracks are repaired and more cracks appear, these will not be due to the stressed/unlevel condition of the shell (in other words, par for the course... not his fault). This is in stark contrast to what his lawyer said when they came to inspect the pool a week or two ago, that if the cracks are repaired and more appear, "well THEN you'd have a strong case." They also label this as being in the category of "normal minor problems that happen with all pool installations" (or something like that... can't recall the exact wording). So a pool shell bent badly out of shape with 60-100 cracks (and growing) is "normal".
Meanwhile, I'm making great progress on my efforts to gather information from experts and elsewhere, and made a major score this past weekend... I obtained the manufacturer's installation manual (unlike many manufacturers, it was not publicly available on their website). My lawyer would have gotten this document eventually, but having it now does greatly help us know where we stand, and it's nothing but good news.
Among numerous helpful bits of information, it gives specific steps for the installation process (including that the shell be lifted to check the footprint on the sand bed, adjustments made as necessary, and repeated as many times as needed to get a perfect fit and 1/4" level), and mentions dire consequences if these steps are not carefully followed. This is very damaging to the builder, as critical procedures were simply ignored in their rush to get the shell dropped in the hole that night and get home.
The builder came a few days ago with several people from the manufacturer to inspect the pool (this was the first time the manufacturer has seen the cracks firsthand). I wasn't there, but I was told that they stared into the pool for like 15 minutes, seemingly mesmerized by the sheer quantity of cracks, and then one of them went underwater to inspect closely. He noticed that a couple of the cracks go beyond being just hairline cracks in the gelcoat, but the guy in charge was quick to reflexively say "but it's not structural". My experts disagree strongly.
The builder and manufacturer insist they can easily fix the cracks, but can't seem to grasp that the distorted shape of the shell is the problem, the cracks are simply the visible symptom (which I'm told will continue to appear), and that such an extensively patched pool will not be the equivalent of the new pool we paid for.
Given the fact that the builder and manufacturer promised back in March that the distorted condition of the shell was acceptable and wouldn't cause any problems, I have no reason to trust what they say now over what independent experts are telling me.
I am confident that we will eventually be made whole financially. But I'd be lying if I didn't admit to feeling very angry about this builder having deliberately ruined my kids' summer (in addition to not being able to swim, they can't even play in the yard, invite their friends over, etc.). I get a sinking feeling in my stomach every time I think about it.
He can't go back in time and install the pool correctly... but he could have done the right thing and corrected the problem (going all the way back to March when the unlevelness was first noticed, or in May when the initial batch of cracks were discovered) rather than playing this game of desperately trying to avoid taking responsibility. Attempting to drag out of the process, stalling for time, hoping we'll give up, while precious and irreplaceable time slips away, is simply infuriating and only strengthens our resolve to see this through.
Oh, and by the way, the setback variance did pass. However, apparently the builder didn't bother to actually measure the distance before he submitted the application. I measured it carefully last week, and the 2" variance that was granted is not enough... 6" is needed, which means another hearing. So even if there was nothing wrong with this pool, construction couldn't resume until mid-August.
--Michael
My lawyer and his have been going back and forth a bit, with the latest stance from the builder being that if these cracks are repaired and more cracks appear, these will not be due to the stressed/unlevel condition of the shell (in other words, par for the course... not his fault). This is in stark contrast to what his lawyer said when they came to inspect the pool a week or two ago, that if the cracks are repaired and more appear, "well THEN you'd have a strong case." They also label this as being in the category of "normal minor problems that happen with all pool installations" (or something like that... can't recall the exact wording). So a pool shell bent badly out of shape with 60-100 cracks (and growing) is "normal".
Meanwhile, I'm making great progress on my efforts to gather information from experts and elsewhere, and made a major score this past weekend... I obtained the manufacturer's installation manual (unlike many manufacturers, it was not publicly available on their website). My lawyer would have gotten this document eventually, but having it now does greatly help us know where we stand, and it's nothing but good news.
Among numerous helpful bits of information, it gives specific steps for the installation process (including that the shell be lifted to check the footprint on the sand bed, adjustments made as necessary, and repeated as many times as needed to get a perfect fit and 1/4" level), and mentions dire consequences if these steps are not carefully followed. This is very damaging to the builder, as critical procedures were simply ignored in their rush to get the shell dropped in the hole that night and get home.
The builder came a few days ago with several people from the manufacturer to inspect the pool (this was the first time the manufacturer has seen the cracks firsthand). I wasn't there, but I was told that they stared into the pool for like 15 minutes, seemingly mesmerized by the sheer quantity of cracks, and then one of them went underwater to inspect closely. He noticed that a couple of the cracks go beyond being just hairline cracks in the gelcoat, but the guy in charge was quick to reflexively say "but it's not structural". My experts disagree strongly.
The builder and manufacturer insist they can easily fix the cracks, but can't seem to grasp that the distorted shape of the shell is the problem, the cracks are simply the visible symptom (which I'm told will continue to appear), and that such an extensively patched pool will not be the equivalent of the new pool we paid for.
Given the fact that the builder and manufacturer promised back in March that the distorted condition of the shell was acceptable and wouldn't cause any problems, I have no reason to trust what they say now over what independent experts are telling me.
I am confident that we will eventually be made whole financially. But I'd be lying if I didn't admit to feeling very angry about this builder having deliberately ruined my kids' summer (in addition to not being able to swim, they can't even play in the yard, invite their friends over, etc.). I get a sinking feeling in my stomach every time I think about it.
He can't go back in time and install the pool correctly... but he could have done the right thing and corrected the problem (going all the way back to March when the unlevelness was first noticed, or in May when the initial batch of cracks were discovered) rather than playing this game of desperately trying to avoid taking responsibility. Attempting to drag out of the process, stalling for time, hoping we'll give up, while precious and irreplaceable time slips away, is simply infuriating and only strengthens our resolve to see this through.
Oh, and by the way, the setback variance did pass. However, apparently the builder didn't bother to actually measure the distance before he submitted the application. I measured it carefully last week, and the 2" variance that was granted is not enough... 6" is needed, which means another hearing. So even if there was nothing wrong with this pool, construction couldn't resume until mid-August.
--Michael
Man....I feel for you, and your family!
At least the installation manual supports your claim of builder negligence so hopefully that translates into some ammo for your side. It still seems really odd to me that the manufacturer is so much on the builders side, perhaps they don't want to lose a retail site? Clearly the builder did not install per manufacturers specs yet the manufacturer is providing an unusual level of assistance to the builder.
If you did the installation yourself and used the same techniques with the same results, and then went to the manufacturer for help, I'm quite certain that they'd blow you off: you installed it wrong, not our fault, here's the name of some people that might be able to repair....and they'd probably be within their "right" to do that. I can't seem them coming to your house and going underwater to assess and diagnose and help repair.
But this clown, they are really backing him up, it just seems very very odd.
There's people out here pulling for you man!!!!!
At least the installation manual supports your claim of builder negligence so hopefully that translates into some ammo for your side. It still seems really odd to me that the manufacturer is so much on the builders side, perhaps they don't want to lose a retail site? Clearly the builder did not install per manufacturers specs yet the manufacturer is providing an unusual level of assistance to the builder.
If you did the installation yourself and used the same techniques with the same results, and then went to the manufacturer for help, I'm quite certain that they'd blow you off: you installed it wrong, not our fault, here's the name of some people that might be able to repair....and they'd probably be within their "right" to do that. I can't seem them coming to your house and going underwater to assess and diagnose and help repair.
But this clown, they are really backing him up, it just seems very very odd.
There's people out here pulling for you man!!!!!
Yes, that is indeed strange. I believe what's going on is that because the builder has a really great location right on an interstate service road, with an upright fiberglass pool prominently on display and seen by thousands of people every day, the manufacturer wants to keep this guy happy, and they don't want him to get a bad taste in his mouth for fiberglass as a result of taking a financial hit like this.
Still, it's truly unbelievable to me that both the manufacturer and builder are so resistant to fixing this installation, given how fast and far bad publicity can travel in this age. The simple act of mentioning the builder's and manufacturer's names in this thread would virtuallly guarantee that no one could search on Google for those names without finding this discussion. And with a modest effort, I could create a blog that would get traffic from a much wider variety of related search terms, casting a much wider net... the content would be nothing defamatory, of course, just our story. But once that horse leaves the barn, there's no getting it back, so I'm holding off until all hope of a cooperative solution is gone (though arguably this point has already been reached).
--Michael
Still, it's truly unbelievable to me that both the manufacturer and builder are so resistant to fixing this installation, given how fast and far bad publicity can travel in this age. The simple act of mentioning the builder's and manufacturer's names in this thread would virtuallly guarantee that no one could search on Google for those names without finding this discussion. And with a modest effort, I could create a blog that would get traffic from a much wider variety of related search terms, casting a much wider net... the content would be nothing defamatory, of course, just our story. But once that horse leaves the barn, there's no getting it back, so I'm holding off until all hope of a cooperative solution is gone (though arguably this point has already been reached).
--Michael
Michael, I would be so frustrated if I were in your shoes. You are a stand-up guy to handle this in the way that you have and you're a great role model for your kids. Hoping for the best possible outcome for you and your family.
Yes, actually some pretty big news yesterday... looks like the debate over whether or not patching the cracks truly fixes the problem is moot.
From the beginning, we've wondered if it was even feasible for this many cracks to be repaired, and suspected that perhaps the builder was understating the severity of the problem in his discussions with the manufacturer... so we had asked that the manufacturer come inspect the pool (up until a week ago, they had not seen the cracks firsthand). Based on what our experts have told us, we also had concerns that the repairs would not look good (either initially, or years from now).
Meanwhile, the builder (through his attorney) has insisted that the cracks could quickly be fixed by the manufacturer, and that the repairs would be invisible (now and in the future), resulting in the shell being restored to "like new" condition.
But yesterday we received a letter and some other documents from the manufacturer rep. There were a lot of helpful pieces of information, but the most significant is that cracks cannot be repaired:
"Much like paint on a car, [a hairline crack repair] is hard to match, discolors at a different rate and repair is appropriate if it is just a couple of hairline cracks. In your case, there are too many to feasibly fix and from experience we know by emptying the pool and the vibrations of routing out the lines to fill causes them to spread."
His advice is for us to let the builder tile the entire bottom of the pool. We're researching this, but our initial reaction (based on we've seen) is that we would not like the way that would look. It was a good suggestion, and may very well be an upgrade, but that doesn't mean it's something we would want. There are other issues we have with this proposed solution as well, but I won't get into those now.
--Michael
From the beginning, we've wondered if it was even feasible for this many cracks to be repaired, and suspected that perhaps the builder was understating the severity of the problem in his discussions with the manufacturer... so we had asked that the manufacturer come inspect the pool (up until a week ago, they had not seen the cracks firsthand). Based on what our experts have told us, we also had concerns that the repairs would not look good (either initially, or years from now).
Meanwhile, the builder (through his attorney) has insisted that the cracks could quickly be fixed by the manufacturer, and that the repairs would be invisible (now and in the future), resulting in the shell being restored to "like new" condition.
But yesterday we received a letter and some other documents from the manufacturer rep. There were a lot of helpful pieces of information, but the most significant is that cracks cannot be repaired:
"Much like paint on a car, [a hairline crack repair] is hard to match, discolors at a different rate and repair is appropriate if it is just a couple of hairline cracks. In your case, there are too many to feasibly fix and from experience we know by emptying the pool and the vibrations of routing out the lines to fill causes them to spread."
His advice is for us to let the builder tile the entire bottom of the pool. We're researching this, but our initial reaction (based on we've seen) is that we would not like the way that would look. It was a good suggestion, and may very well be an upgrade, but that doesn't mean it's something we would want. There are other issues we have with this proposed solution as well, but I won't get into those now.
--Michael
Interesting... However I have never heard of tile being set onto fiberglass. Also would the same problems with an improper installation cause tiles to pop and crack? I also wonder if the shell is rigid enough for a satisfactory installation. Besides, if you wanted a tile pool you would have built a tile pool!
So they are suggesting you allow the builder to "Cover the damage with a BIG Band-Aid"?
How does this help the overall integrity of your "New" EXPENSIVE pool?
What happens to the tiles when the pool is drained for some reason and the 2 ends spring up?
At least you have something from the Manfacture stating in writing that the cracks are not repairable!
How does this help the overall integrity of your "New" EXPENSIVE pool?
What happens to the tiles when the pool is drained for some reason and the 2 ends spring up?
At least you have something from the Manfacture stating in writing that the cracks are not repairable!
Apparently there are special adhesives that allow for installation of tiles on fiberglass, flexible enough to not have problems with subtle movement.
Oh, and one other piece of information. One of the experts who came to inspect the pool noticed that the tanning pool has cracks as well. The area around the return (on the bottom) is pushed up higher, and 2 cracks are spreading out from that spot. This is because the builder did not set it on a groomed bed of clean sand, but rather just on the ground.
--Michael
Oh, and one other piece of information. One of the experts who came to inspect the pool noticed that the tanning pool has cracks as well. The area around the return (on the bottom) is pushed up higher, and 2 cracks are spreading out from that spot. This is because the builder did not set it on a groomed bed of clean sand, but rather just on the ground.
--Michael
Well, sounds like good news, hopefully it translates to something positive.
Personally I'd nix the tiling of the bottom, from a legal stand point one would *assume* that would be a non-starter, you bought a product and you shouldn't have to settle any absurd remedy that keeps the compromised product in place. Legitimate fixes are one thing, the tile seems like something all together different.
I hope the builder finally concedes.
Personally I'd nix the tiling of the bottom, from a legal stand point one would *assume* that would be a non-starter, you bought a product and you shouldn't have to settle any absurd remedy that keeps the compromised product in place. Legitimate fixes are one thing, the tile seems like something all together different.
I hope the builder finally concedes.
- Jun 12, 2011
- 3,769
- Pool Size
- 19500
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pureline Crystal Pure 60,000
I don't see how they could tile it, even if you agreed. It would require emptying the pool, at which time it's going to pop up at the ends where it's under stress. Then when refilled the tiles are going to pop off as the weight of the water pushes it back down again.
It seems like they are now just grasping at straws. It sounds like you just have to stand your ground. I hope you included something in your legal claim for loss of use of the pool, while they drag their feet.
It seems like they are now just grasping at straws. It sounds like you just have to stand your ground. I hope you included something in your legal claim for loss of use of the pool, while they drag their feet.
chiefwej said:
The theory is that the concrete decking would hold the ends down. Maybe, maybe not.
There are a variety of reasons why we're not inclined to accept tiling the bottom as a solution, but I don't think we need to go any further than "because that's not what we contracted for, and it's not what we want."
--Michael
cramar said:
Yes, and aside from not being fond of the aesthetics, leaving the distorted and cracked shell in place is simply not an option. In addition to the likelihood of future problems (the steps are cracking now too... will the walls be next?), if we were ever to sell our house, we'd have to disclose that the pool was installed badly out of level, resulting in a bunch of gelcoat cracks (with a few cracks likely structural, from what I'm told), which were subsequently covered up with tile.
I doubt a buyer even totally in love with the house would stick around after hearing that.
But again, I don't think any further justification will be necessary. We contracted for a fiberglass pool, not a pool with a tile bottom.
--Michael