New build - Help with equipment selection, automation

[Gorilla83]

Hi all,

We're deep in the planning process and torn among a few choices for equipment selection. We're looking at building a ~30K gallon free form gunite pool located in SE PA, most likely starting construction in the early spring of 2018.

Here are our main considerations:

-Equipment reliability
-Replacement cost for salt cell
-Ability to control pool lighting, pump, waterfall, bubblers in sunshelf, and salt cell (bonus)
-Features and ability to support add ons (landscape lighting, maybe audio/speakers, possibly PH control in the future)
-Will probably add a dedicated pump to all setups below for water features (waterfall and bubblers)
-I'm looking at getting the Dolphin S300i robot but don't see any reason to control this with the automation

Package #1 - All Pentair
-Easytouch 8 w/ screenlogic
-3HP variable speed intelliflo pump 011018
-Pentair Quad DE 100 sq ft filter 188594
-Pentair Superflo VS 1.5HP 342001 for water features (will this be needed?)
-IC60 salt cell
-2X intellibright multi color LED lights
-Pentair heat pump ~120k btu
Thoughts: Like the screen logic interface, concerned about salt cell replacement cost and reliability overall vs. autopilot. Going all-pentair should extend the warranty period as well.

Package #2 - Pentair controls w/ autopilot salt cell and aqua cal heat pump
-Easytouch 8 w/ screenlogic
-3HP variable speed intelliflo pump 011018
-Pentair Quad DE 100 sq ft filter 188594
-Pentair Superflo VS 1.5HP 342001 for water features (will this be needed?)
-Autopilot pool pilot SWCG w/ PPC4 cell
-2X intellibright multi color LED lights
-Aquacal heat pump ~120k btu
Thoughts: Like the salt setup with pool pilot better (lower replacement cost and more features) but lose the ability to control with the Easytouch. Will I really be adjusting the SWCG % often via the automation with this setup? Does autopilot make any type of smart phone control?

Package #3 - All Hayward
-Omnilogic w/ 4-8 relays
-Ecostar SVRS pump variable speed pump and oversized DE filter
-Single speed pump 1HP for water features (Hayward)
-Hayward SWCG w/ T-15 40K rated cell (largest they seem to offer)
-2x color logic lights
-Aquacal heat pump ~120k btu
Thoughts: Like the fact that everything is matched, concerns is salt cell will be undersized and will not last as long. Also pentair seems to build a more reliable pump based on the reviews I've read. Have also seen many have had issues with the Pentair LED lights recently. Going all hayward would give me a better warranty vs. mixed as well.

Would love to hear your thoughts from those that went through a similar selection and chose equipment. Thanks in advance!

 

[Esloser]

Who makes the aquacel heat pumps? I think you may get a longer warranty on your equipment if you buy all from same supplier.

I have all Hayward on our pool. No complaints so far, but I'm less than a year into it.

Did you already solicit feedback on the heat pump vs natural gas / propane debate? Maybe it's in your other thread?

 

[mknauss]

FYI -- stay away from the SVRS pump. Get the Intelliflo VS.
The SVRS adds complexity and can be problematic as it shuts down when it senses low flow. You will have two main drains, that replaces the need for the SVRS.

Take care.

 

[Jimrahbe]

G,

There is really only one choice and that is Package #1...

The cell in package number 3 is just not big enough..

Having an automation system where you can't talk to the cell does not make any sense to me... So package #2 is out..

As Marty says.. do not go with the SVRS version of the IntelliFlo... I have it and would trade it for the non-SVRS tomorrow... Restricts your low speeds and can cause weird on/off operation if it just "thinks" there is a suction issue.

The number one rule in automation is to make sure that the pump, the SWCG and the Automation system can all communicate with each other. To do that you pretty much have to buy the same brand equipment.

Some of the benefits of using the IC60 with the EasyTouch...

1. The power supply for the SWCG is inside the EasyTouch.
2. This make is easy to turn power to the SWCG cell on/off based on if the main pump is being told to run or not.
3. Being able to talk to the cell allows you to set the cell output from your PC in 1% increments instead of at the cell in 20% increments.
4. The cell reports back the salt reading.
5. The cell reports back any low flow warnings.

Below is my standard answer about what automation can do, or not do, for a pool owner..... it might answer some of your other questions...

Many people have pools without automation and they work just fine. I do, however, think it is important to know the advantages and the disadvantages of having an automation system.

1. Automation will help you with pool maintenance, but it will not replace the need for you to test your water, understand what you are looking at, and then making sure your water is balanced. (Another reason you need the accuracy of the TF100 test kit.)

2. The main downside to automation is cost. So before going too far down this path, you might ask your PB what it's going to cost. That said, the best time to install automation is when the pool is being built, because all the connections to the system can be made without having to figure out how you are to get power across 50' of new deck. Also, the additional cost, when compared to the cost of the pool, will be miniscule.

3. Automation systems work best when the same brand is used because then the pieces can "talk" to together. So, in your case I would recommend the EasyTouch 4 (or 8) that has a built in power supply for the SWG and generally comes with the SWG and two valves. ScreenLogic2 is an absolute requirement if you want to be able to control things from your PC or Phone.

Here is a list of what I think the advantages are:

1. Appearance. Instead of having a bunch of different boxes hanging on your wall you have one, professional looking enclosure.

2. Circuit Breaker Panel. The bottom half of the enclosure is a circuit-breaker panel where the breakers for your pool equipment (Pumps, Heater, etc.) are located. This panel is also an excellent place to add surge protector, which is an absolute must if you have the Intelliflo pump. Even if you do not get the automation, make sure your PB includes a surge protector for the pump.

3. SWG Control. Without automation, your SWG will have to have a timer, synced to the pump timer so that it does not run when the pump is off. This function is built into the EasyTouch.

4. Spa mode and SWG output. Normally all the water flows through the SWG, so when in the Spa mode, the EasyTouch reduces the amount of chlorine the SWG produces, so that the Spa users are not subjected to high levels of chlorine.

5. Pool Lighting. The EasyTouch allows you to control your pool lighting from your PC and/or from a schedule. This is another reason to add the EasyTouch now. Once your pool light is wired to switches inside your house, it might be very difficult to get the wiring to any automation system.

6. Control of Spill-over and bubblers. Right now I'm sure you are thinking I want that spillover running 24-hours a day because it is so beautiful.. Well, after a few weeks of having your pH go through the roof, you'll appreciate the ability to only turn it on, when you want it on. The same with the bubblers. With the Easytouch, you can program them to run on a schedule for a few minutes a day to keep the everything properly chlorinated or when you want to "show off" to your guests..

7. Relay Control. The EasyTouch 4 has four (really three) relays that can be used to control other things, such as landscape lights. (The EasyTouch has 8 (really 7) relays.

8. Built in Valve controls. The EasyTouch has the ability to control 4 valves. Two work for switching between the Pool and Spa modes, while two others can be programmed to do whatever you might want, like bubbler control. I would note that a lot of bubblers are controlled by manual valves that cannot be automated. You need to be sure to tell your PB that you want Jandy style valves for your bubbler control.

9. Heater Control. The EasyTouch can control your heater.. So, you can be inside and tell your PC what temperature you want the Spa to be and it will tell you when it is ready.

10. ScreenLogic. ScreenLogic allows you to program the EasyTouch with various schedules. It lets you see most all of the inputs and output to the EasyTouch and lets you decide what you want on/off and in the case of your SWG, lets you adjust the % of output on the fly.


Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Gorilla83]

Who makes the aquacel heat pumps? I think you may get a longer warranty on your equipment if you buy all from same supplier.

I have all Hayward on our pool. No complaints so far, but I'm less than a year into it.

Did you already solicit feedback on the heat pump vs natural gas / propane debate? Maybe it's in your other thread?

Thanks, I'm leaning toward the all-Pentair setup as well because of the warranty. In terms of the heater, yes we've had a bit of a discussion in the other thread. I was initially leaning toward going nat gas, but after discussing with our neighbors a bit more as well as most of the PBs they are steering us toward the heat pump route. I'll admit we've waffled much more in this area vs others.

FYI -- stay away from the SVRS pump. Get the Intelliflo VS.
The SVRS adds complexity and can be problematic as it shuts down when it senses low flow. You will have two main drains, that replaces the need for the SVRS.

Take care.

That's good input and will save us money, thanks!

G,

There is really only one choice and that is Package #1...

The cell in package number 3 is just not big enough..

Having an automation system where you can't talk to the cell does not make any sense to me... So package #2 is out..

As Marty says.. do not go with the SVRS version of the IntelliFlo... I have it and would trade it for the non-SVRS tomorrow... Restricts your low speeds and can cause weird on/off operation if it just "thinks" there is a suction issue.

The number one rule in automation is to make sure that the pump, the SWCG and the Automation system can all communicate with each other. To do that you pretty much have to buy the same brand equipment.

Some of the benefits of using the IC60 with the EasyTouch...

1. The power supply for the SWCG is inside the EasyTouch.
2. This make is easy to turn power to the SWCG cell on/off based on if the main pump is being told to run or not.
3. Being able to talk to the cell allows you to set the cell output from your PC in 1% increments instead of at the cell in 20% increments.
4. The cell reports back the salt reading.
5. The cell reports back any low flow warnings.

Below is my standard answer about what automation can do, or not do, for a pool owner..... it might answer some of your other questions...

Many people have pools without automation and they work just fine. I do, however, think it is important to know the advantages and the disadvantages of having an automation system.

1. Automation will help you with pool maintenance, but it will not replace the need for you to test your water, understand what you are looking at, and then making sure your water is balanced. (Another reason you need the accuracy of the TF100 test kit.)

2. The main downside to automation is cost. So before going too far down this path, you might ask your PB what it's going to cost. That said, the best time to install automation is when the pool is being built, because all the connections to the system can be made without having to figure out how you are to get power across 50' of new deck. Also, the additional cost, when compared to the cost of the pool, will be miniscule.

3. Automation systems work best when the same brand is used because then the pieces can "talk" to together. So, in your case I would recommend the EasyTouch 4 (or 8) that has a built in power supply for the SWG and generally comes with the SWG and two valves. ScreenLogic2 is an absolute requirement if you want to be able to control things from your PC or Phone.

Here is a list of what I think the advantages are:

1. Appearance. Instead of having a bunch of different boxes hanging on your wall you have one, professional looking enclosure.

2. Circuit Breaker Panel. The bottom half of the enclosure is a circuit-breaker panel where the breakers for your pool equipment (Pumps, Heater, etc.) are located. This panel is also an excellent place to add surge protector, which is an absolute must if you have the Intelliflo pump. Even if you do not get the automation, make sure your PB includes a surge protector for the pump.

3. SWG Control. Without automation, your SWG will have to have a timer, synced to the pump timer so that it does not run when the pump is off. This function is built into the EasyTouch.

4. Spa mode and SWG output. Normally all the water flows through the SWG, so when in the Spa mode, the EasyTouch reduces the amount of chlorine the SWG produces, so that the Spa users are not subjected to high levels of chlorine.

5. Pool Lighting. The EasyTouch allows you to control your pool lighting from your PC and/or from a schedule. This is another reason to add the EasyTouch now. Once your pool light is wired to switches inside your house, it might be very difficult to get the wiring to any automation system.

6. Control of Spill-over and bubblers. Right now I'm sure you are thinking I want that spillover running 24-hours a day because it is so beautiful.. Well, after a few weeks of having your pH go through the roof, you'll appreciate the ability to only turn it on, when you want it on. The same with the bubblers. With the Easytouch, you can program them to run on a schedule for a few minutes a day to keep the everything properly chlorinated or when you want to "show off" to your guests..

7. Relay Control. The EasyTouch 4 has four (really three) relays that can be used to control other things, such as landscape lights. (The EasyTouch has 8 (really 7) relays.

8. Built in Valve controls. The EasyTouch has the ability to control 4 valves. Two work for switching between the Pool and Spa modes, while two others can be programmed to do whatever you might want, like bubbler control. I would note that a lot of bubblers are controlled by manual valves that cannot be automated. You need to be sure to tell your PB that you want Jandy style valves for your bubbler control.

9. Heater Control. The EasyTouch can control your heater.. So, you can be inside and tell your PC what temperature you want the Spa to be and it will tell you when it is ready.

10. ScreenLogic. ScreenLogic allows you to program the EasyTouch with various schedules. It lets you see most all of the inputs and output to the EasyTouch and lets you decide what you want on/off and in the case of your SWG, lets you adjust the % of output on the fly.


Thanks,

Jim R.

Jim - This is FANTASTIC input, exactly what I was looking for. We're sold on the benefits of automation, it was just a matter of how far we go with it. I agree it's starting to make sense to go all-Pentair given the pro/cons of each setup and factoring in warranty and scope of automation control. Thank you very much!

 

[shanebo]

I have a slight variation of your package #3 (all Hayward) and absolutely love it. A couple of comments:

- I have a VS pump for my waterfall, and highly recommend it -- only slightly more expensive, and I can do anything from Niagra falls for the kids to a romantic trickle for the missus. Goes great with our natural stone waterfall.
- You're correct that the T-15 cell is the largest SWG Hayward offers. It's what I have on my 30k gal. pool. Pump runs 12 hrs./day @ ~60%, salt cell is on 80% of that time, and it produces more than enough chlorine for our heavy use (we swim at least 5 days/wk. and have parties every weekend, plus at least one dead mouse, mole or frog each week). I did have to supplement a bit with bleach this spring, however, when the water was cooler and I didn't yet have the system dialed in. Would be nice to have a slightly larger cell, sure, but this one's working fine for me.
- Depending on the layout of your pool, you might want to add a couple of accent lights to the plan. In addition to the two large omnilogic lights, I have two of the 320 accent lights -- one on the sun shelf and one on the swim-out bench. Highly recommend. They sync with the other lights and ensure that there are no dark spots or shadows in the pool.
- I also have the aquacal heat pump. You've probably read up on heat pumps v. gas heaters, so I won't go into those details here. Suffice it to say that I wished for gas heat in the early spring, when my pool temp was increasing only 5 degrees per day (and my neighbor's was sitting at 90 ...). But I love it now. I leave the thing on constantly, pool is always 88, and no appreciable increase in energy costs.
- I did NOT hook up my landscape lights to the system, simply because I didn't see the need -- landscaper uses low energy LEDs with a dusk-dawn photocell. I flirted with the idea of colored landscape lights to sync with the pool, but thought that might be too clubby, lol ...

We were initially on the fence about automation, but now I couldn't live without it. No experience with Pentair, but the Omnilogic system is just great. Runs flawlessly, never had any problem whatsoever (knock on wood ...). Turn waterfall and waterslide off and on, adjust flow, turn on lights, change colors (Omnilogic light shows are awesome), control cleaner and SWG -- the list goes on. All from my phone. I was down the shore last week and my nanny wanted to swim -- so I turned on the lights, waterfall, and waterslide for her, all from Ocean City. Pretty cool.

 

[Gorilla83]

Had my last (hopefully) interview with a builder last night and we talked quite a bit regarding equipment. Most of the PBs around here are Pentair dealers and can offer a decent warranty when utilizing their equipment so I'll very likely be going that route. As far as equipment, I'm headed in the direction of using Package #1 including a dedicated variable speed pump for water features. The one change that I'm starting to lean toward is using a cartridge filter for the sake of ease of cleaning.

 

[Ocgasman]

Big +1 on package #1 for all the reasons stated above. I love my Quad DE and would buy another one if my current filter broke. Clarity of DE in a cartridge style. I don't backwash, just break it down and clean it twice a year. Takes me about 2 hours. I have different pumps for my water features and glad I did it that way. Let's me control them separately and adjust flow to each independent of the main filter pump. Just a FYI, there's been some threads on here about the reliability of bubblers. Do a quick search. I don't have bubblers, I have magic laminars, which I LOVE.

 

[Gorilla83]

Big +1 on package #1 for all the reasons stated above. I love my Quad DE and would buy another one if my current filter broke. Clarity of DE in a cartridge style. I don't backwash, just break it down and clean it twice a year. Takes me about 2 hours. I have different pumps for my water features and glad I did it that way. Let's me control them separately and adjust flow to each independent of the main filter pump. Just a FYI, there's been some threads on here about the reliability of bubblers. Do a quick search. I don't have bubblers, I have magic laminars, which I LOVE.

Great. I haven't heard much (direct) owner input on the Quad filter and was starting to worry it would be a maintenance hassle dealing with cleaning and adding DE, etc. Do you run the pool year round? I'm wondering with the 100 sq ft model if I can get away with 1 cleaning a year running 4-5 months and would have an "average" bather load. That would be totally manageable for us.

 

[Ocgasman]

Great. I haven't heard much (direct) owner input on the Quad filter and was starting to worry it would be a maintenance hassle dealing with cleaning and adding DE, etc. Do you run the pool year round? I'm wondering with the 100 sq ft model if I can get away with 1 cleaning a year running 4-5 months and would have an "average" bather load. That would be totally manageable for us.

I run my pool year round but mainly gets used from spring to fall. You can prob get away with cleaning a Quad DE 100 at the beginning of each season if you only use it 4-5 months out of the year, but YMMV depending on bather load and debris. I don't know a single Quad DE owner that regrets getting that filter. Have only heard great reviews like from me. Keep the Quad DE. Matt, username JoyfulNoise, has an excellent tutorial on cleaning the Quad DE.

Guts of QuadDE Filter