Need some help - sun shelf outside of deep end

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T

tomormatt

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Dec 21, 2018
11
Los Angeles, CA
Really like the forum and have learned much from several threads so thanks for everyone who is active on the forum.

We have a 20 x 40 rectangular pool that we are renovating along with the surrounding decking. Had a number of issues already arise and am increasingly nervous about some elements of the redesign. The biggest issue at present is our desire to add a sun shelf. Our pool is 10' deep in the deep end and the shallow end (3-4') starts sloping substantially about 15' into the pool. When we started the dialogue with the PB, we discussed not wanting to use all of the shallow end for a shelf and his suggestion was to dig a 10 x 14' shelf on the deep end of the pool.

We have ample space outside the deep end of the pool so we are probably moving forward with this, but have the following questions:


  • Shelf in deep end - we do not have younger kids so the shelf is primarily for adults lounging (will have two chairs and umbrella), but obviously might have kids over occasionally and assume they will be on the shelf. I am nervous about the shelf being next to a 10' deep end so we are trying to do some sort of barrier (i.e. stepping stones where the water runs through channels). Question is if anyone has done a shelf in the deep end and if so how did you contemplate this issue?
  • Tie in to current shell - the original thinking was to tie into the shell, but when the PB talked about the stepping stones / channels he also indicated they would not have to tie into the shell. The have dug a 3' hole for the shelf and are going to tie the rebar soon. I had always assumed the shelf would need to tie into the shell to avoid them shifting differently resulting in cracks. Has anyone done something similar and if so what is the result?
  • Water circulation - the current plan is to have a return on the shelf to keep the water circulating since it will be sitting above the water line of the pool. Does this seem adequate and/or do we risk having stagnant water in the shelf?
  • Workers damaged the shell on the deep end - someone did not get the memo and started to demo the shell on the deep end assuming we were going to tie into the shell however many feet down. Fortunately my wife was home and ran outside to stop limiting the damage to a 3' section. PB assures me they can shoot shotcrete and it will be seamless, but my other concrete projects have made me wary of cold joints and I am nervous it is a crack waiting to happen. Is this going to be okay?

Any help is appreciated. My wife is using her friends husband as our PB and this project has been less than smooth to say the least. He seems to be clueless and I am not sure of the company he is using to do the construction. We are through demo and it is bad enough that I am considering pausing and having others bid on the work. I should have been more involved, but my wife wanted to run with this. Hoping we are not too far off course, but nervous. Any thoughts are greatly appreciated.
 
SoCal Pool Reno - lots of questions (i.e. lighting, adding sun shelf, coping, etc.)

I had a separate thread on my questions regarding the sun shelf, but realize I should probably keep everything in one thread so hopefully the moderators can help merge.

Renovating entire pool and decking. Pool is 20 x 40 and surround deck is very large. We are also adding a covered patio over previous decking to have an outdoor living space. We are done with demo as of today (plaster is being waterblasted as I type) and have several critical decision points.

Key points as follows:


  • Decking - we are thinking of doing poured concrete from the house out 15', which will be the decking for the covered patio area and a 3' sidewalk followed by interlocking pavers that will border the pool, and poured coping with a washed concrete finish.
    • I realize this is largely personal preference, but wondering if anyone has done something similar and if so how it has turned out. I am primarily concerned with the longevity of washed concrete as any erosion would seem to expose too much aggregate leading to an unsightly deck.
  • Pool coping - I noticed the workers starting to form for the coping and went to discuss. We had not decided on shape (i.e. bullnose vs. square), but they got word that we are doing square and started to build forms. I stopped for two reasons - first need to finalize shape and second they were going to use simply 2 x 4 forms for the pour. I have usually seen bullnose, which obviously require proper forms, but cannot imagine getting a uniform finish / shape on a square edge using 2 x 4 forms. As they were trying it would seem like this is just a slab hanging over the pool 3"
  • Lighting - we have one light in the shallow end and it illuminates the pool fine; however, this would be the time to add lights (nicheless?) so wondering how that has worked for anyone who has done the same and how often they are used (we do not swim much at night so mostly for visual appeal).
  • Water features along far side - we want to do some water feature and are thinking about either a 6' wall with bowls on top for a sheer decent or three columns evenly spaced / centered in a 15' section with the same bowls. Trying to understand how either the wall or columns works with the coping especially if we go with bullnose.

Any thoughts are hugely appreciated. I would typically be having this discussion with our PB, but that has been a disaster. We do not have a finalized plan and am having difficulty pinning everyone down on this. it is my wife's friend's husband and I would have never started without a plan if I were driving the process. At this point, I am considering making a switch as I am nervous about the outcome. Money is always an issue, but is way down on my list compared to getting the backyard / pool right and I have no confidence in the current builder. I want to have the above points thought out before we sit down with PB and discuss.

Thanks again for any help.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Some pics of your pool and the deep end where the damage is will let us better understand your situation.
 
ajw22 said:
Some pics of your pool and the deep end where the damage is will let us better understand your situation.
Click to expand...

Will try to add pics shortly.

Did not want to fill in any of the deep end as assumed depth would require lots of concrete. The rebar is in the sun shelf, but not tied into the pool in any way. Meeting with PB today to try and discuss, but appreciate any opinions.
 
Never mind now that I see your pics. My mental picture of the shelf was very different.
 
So it is more like a "spa" than a "shelf" it seems from the pics. I want to make sure I am seeing it right and understand what is what:

-those are benches in that hole at the end of the deep end?

-will the water spill over into the pool from the "spa/shelf"?

-will there be a drain in the foot well?

-where are they thinking of putting the return?

I think that will get us started.
 
The prior setup was small spa at the shallow end of the pool. The ledge that is being constructed in the deep end in an area that was previously just decking / landscaping. A 15' x 10' area has been excavated and now has rebar. It will spill over via three channels that will be cut into the coping.

The return is going to be on the far wall close to the where the shelf meets the deep end.

The only overhang will be the coping, but might have not explained that well. Cutting three channels (12") in the coping will allow the water in the shelf to spill over into the pool. The channels will have the effect of creating "stepping stones" in the coping between the shelf and pool.

- - - Updated - - -

Just went over some items with PB. He is adamant about the coping being straight edge using wood forms. Says he has not seen any rectangular pools with bullnose coping. My issue is that even if we decide on straight edge I would not be comfortable with just wood forms (vs. foam, rubber, etc.) as I worry it will not be uniform due to imperfections in the 2 x 4.

Any thoughts on coping for a rectangular pool and/or the issue with forms?
 

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Got it! A couple more questions

-how deep will this shelf end up being?

-why have any coping at all between the shelf and the pool?

I think the rebar should connect the spa and pool shell. That is just my gut but it only makes sense for the very reason you stated-keep them from moving and cracking. I am going to reach out to someone who may know. Hold on a bit while they get back with us.

Kim:kim:
 
Thanks much. Water depth tbd, but we have discussed 12". Originally thought that we would do the typical shelf that just flowed into the pool, but I am concerned about the shelf being in the deep end of the pool, which is 10' deep (not sure why it was built so deep, but maybe had a diving board at some point?). The rationale for coping with channels cut to allow the water to spill over is to have some barrier between shelf and deep end. Obviously not going to do much and I assume the coping between the channels will be used to jump off for the most part, but at least a toddler would see some barrier and have to crawl over to get to the pool. We do not have any small children and have always been fanatical about having eyes on our kids when they were young (probably overly so), but have seen many parents that do not as much glance at their kids around a pool so trying to have something that gives me a little more peace of mind.
 
Sorry for all the questions in one thread, but trying to keep all posts together for continuity. The hydroblasting was yesterday, but looks like lots of plaster remains. We are going to have a pebble or quartz finish installed. The house is 32 years old, but I am not sure how many times the pool has been re-plastered and if it has if they just scarified it and used a bond coat, but my assumption is that we would need to have a full chip out to ensure the best adhesion / most uniform finish on the new pebble or quartz.

Looking for opinions on if we need to go further than the pictures in the link show. As context, cost is obviously always relevant, but a distant second to making sure we have a very high quality job done that will last a long time.

Pool - Google Drive
 
I see what you mean about the coping between the shelf and pool now. What I would do is make it a "stand out" color in some way. You do NOT want it to blend in. That way it will be a toe stubber and a visual "barrier" as the same time. I do worry about someone walking and tripping on it so be very mindful of that aspect.

For the depth of the shelf think about what you would want to do on the shelf-sit in a chair, a lounger,???? Once you think on that then think do you want your bottom in the water if sitting on a chair? Do you water on your if in a lounger? Use that as a guide for your depth.

A full chip out has almost no plaster left. What did they use to "chip" it out? That looks almost like all they did was ???? ummmmm use something to swirl??? it around instead of take it off and out. They should have been using a chisel or such with great care.
 
Note to all, I merged his two threads. You can find another of his posts at number #2 of this thread.

The coping-I would ask your PB for a reference to another of his pools where he did the same coping they were trying to do at your house. Make sure it was done by the same subs as the ones working at your house.

I looked at your pics again and pulled in to look at the "coping" that is there now. What is the stuff by the 2x4? Are those the forms you talk about? It does not really look like it will overhang the pool wall.
 
I am loading a few more pics with closeups on both the "coping" and the existing plaster after the hydrojetting.

Issue I have with the coping is that I am having difficulty seeing how you can get uniform coping from 2x4s. This seems like simply extending the concrete slab 1 1/2" over the pool edge. I have done a few concrete projects where I used a jointer / planer to get the best forms I could and it helps keep the edge uniform, but nowhere near what I would expect from coping.

Question on the plaster is should I be doing a full chip-out. We are going with a pebble or quartz finish. Unsure how many times the pool has been plastered (house is 32 years old and we have lived here five), but pretty sure it would be only once after the initial build if that. The plaster is definitely scarified and I have not looked / knocked to see if there are hallow spots. My philosophy on all remodeling / construction is that I am willing to pay to ensure the job has top quality. That said, if the incremental benefit is minimal I am fine saving money. In this case, I want to give the best chance so it does not need a replaster for several years.

Pool - Google Drive
 
You can plaster over old plaster once. If you ever need to plaster again in the future you will have to do a full chip out of BOTH previous plaster jobs as the current plaster is still there.

How deep are the valleys in the current plaster? If they are as deep as they look then there is more work that needs to be done to in sure a smooth plaster job this time.

Coping-I don't think (gut talking here with nothing to back it up) you can get a straight, smooth finish from a 2x4. I still suggest you ask to see some of his past work before you move forward with this.
 
As an update, I wanted to get a sense for how thick the existing plaster was / is. I do not know if the pool has ever been re-plastered (it is 32 years old so I would assume; however, the previous owners did not maintain anything so nothing will surprise me); however, a hit a few spots with a hammer and several chunks of plaster came off relatively easily. I have loaded a picture of one of the pieces that is close to 3/4" thick. It was on the stairs and other spots do not seem to be as deep, so not sure if this is the original coat or not.

The advice seems to be consistent recommending a full chip out when two or more coats of plaster are present. I understand the balance between wanting a good substrate to adhere to the new plaster vs. risking chipping out pieces of the pool shell. I would be fine with the current approach (hydrojet) if we can get a smooth finish that will last as long as a full chip out; however, I have no issue with a higher cost and doing a chip out if that is not possible.

Thanks again for the continuing comments and happy holidays.
 
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