Mystery blue gel

[poolshopcdm]

Hey legends, I'm currently working in the pool industry in Central Australia in alice springs. We have a client who has a 12 month old, fiberglass pool. The client is using a Naked Oxi/ion system with an astral Ph monitoring and auto dosing system, cartridge filters and variable speed pumps for filtration and water features. The pool is a white gel coated fiberglass shell. When looking at the pool, water clarity is perfect and there is no sign of this gel on the walls or floor of the pool at all. When cleaning the robotic pool cleaner filters or skimmer basket with skimmer sock inside, this blue gel like substance is present. They have attempted vacuuming the entire pool to waste, water chemistry is perfect and no gel like clarifiers have been used. I have been in the industry for 10 years and have not seen this in a single pool in my career thus far.

Let me know if anyone has seen this or has any input?

Cheers,

 

[Newdude]

Hey PS and Welcome !!!!

We've seen similar many times in high copper pools. The only way to remove copper is to drain. (The products for sale don't work as they claim)

 

[Texas Splash]

Welcome to TFP! I would also add that if you are 100% sure the pool owners have no added any pool store products, it would help to confirm the water chemistry. Is the water being tested with a reputable test kit from Clear Choice Labs?

@AUSpool or @aussieta might have more to recommend.

 

[duraleigh]

I have seen it in a pool some 10-12 years ago. Didn't have a test kit but pool water was clear and looked well maintain.

In this instance, it covered a bristle brush that had been left in the pool. and it was NOT water soluble .

I am completely clueless as to the cause.

 

[Bperry]

Hey legends, I'm currently working in the pool industry in Central Australia in alice springs. We have a client who has a 12 month old, fiberglass pool. The client is using a Naked Oxi/ion system with an astral Ph monitoring and auto dosing system, cartridge filters and variable speed pumps for filtration and water features. The pool is a white gel coated fiberglass shell. When looking at the pool, water clarity is perfect and there is no sign of this gel on the walls or floor of the pool at all. When cleaning the robotic pool cleaner filters or skimmer basket with skimmer sock inside, this blue gel like substance is present. They have attempted vacuuming the entire pool to waste, water chemistry is perfect and no gel like clarifiers have been used. I have been in the industry for 10 years and have not seen this in a single pool in my career thus far.

Let me know if anyone has seen this or has any input?

Cheers,

The naked oxy system say it uses copper as it sanitation and with the turquoise color of the residue point pretty sharply toward copper contamination.

From their website:

Yes, and we are one of the only companies that is honest with our customers, letting them know we do produce chlorine as a by-product of oxidisation.

You will not taste, feel or smell the chlorine; this process is used to oxidise the water (break down organic matter, dust, dirt, oils and body fats etc).

The difference is we do not hold the chlorine residual in the water (no stabiliser/cyanuric acid needed) and when a chlorine test is done you will more than likely get a reading of 0-0.5ppm.

The residual in the water we rely on is the I copper 0.2-0.5ppm, similar to your drinking water at home.

 

[Donldson]

+1 on copper. I've seen it back in my service days.

That is a surprising amount for a system that intends to only keep 0.5 ppm, though.

 

[Mdragger88]

Are they using any other copper containing products (like ones with blu/blue in the name - trichlor pucks or algaecides)?
Is there a heater on this pool?
Has the ph fallen low for an extended period of time?
Automatic testing/dosing equipment should be checked with a drop test regularly to ensure over dosing isn’t occurring.
I have to assume that the cartridge filter looks like this as well.
If you don’t stop the introduction of copper into the water this will just occur again in short order after replacing the water to dilute the current copper concentration.

Copper in Pool Water - Further Reading

www.google.com

 

[Newdude]

That is a surprising amount for a system that intends to only keep 0.5 ppm, though.

It's up to the customer similar to a SWG. They intend the water to be tested while adding, then stop at their preferred levels. To their credit, the end of the video mentions that it's easier to add copper than to remove it.

https://support.naked-pools.com/hc/en-au/articles/360045345414-OXI-Boost-and-ION-Boost-Functions

But put it in the hands of your average pool owner with clarity issues and no grip on their chemistry, and they're gonna hit that ion boost button like whack-a-mole.

 

[Bperry]

It's up to the customer similar to a SWG. They intend the water to be tested while adding, then stop at their preferred levels. To their credit, the end of the video mentions that it's easier to add copper than to remove it.

https://support.naked-pools.com/hc/en-au/articles/360045345414-OXI-Boost-and-ION-Boost-Functions

But put it in the hands of your average pool owner with clarity issues and no grip on their chemistry, and they're gonna hit that ion boost button like whack-a-mole.

To be fair, the FAQ says to not use any copper based algaecides with their system.

 

[JamesW]

Do the filter cartridges also have the same blue colored stuff?

 

[AUSpool]

Too much copper, silver and probably magnesium.

Naked is a copper silver combo with standard type SWG cell to provide FC for oxidation. The Oxi is their secrete code word for chlorine. The owners are sold on it by a bunch of fancy smoke and mirror day spa advertising and after spending so much on it they are kind of forced to try and make a go of it. I wouldn’t be surprised if there is a high magnesium concentration too.

Copper is known for its staining, and running on the edge of high copper to start with they are almost required to specifically avoid any copper based algacides. pH control is very important to avoid staining. They recommend not to go over a pH of 7.6 ever. ORP control is a disaster waiting to happen, as it starts to move out of calibration or fails the system can overdrive itself.

Thinking chlorine will only provide the oxidation is such a dumb idea. Even at low levels chlorine is so much better at sanitation then the copper or silver and doesn’t know it’s only there for the oxidisers roll. Te chlorine does all the heavy lifting, both sanitising and oxidising, and leaves the copper and silver to just slowly build up.

The best advise would be to rip it out and replace it with a SWG.

 

[poolshopcdm]

Thanks for all the responses. I have been servicing the naked systems for quiet a while now and understand thoroughly how that system works. I will admit, the client has been getting water tests through a pool shop once a month, with PH always sitting between 7.2-7.6 due to their acid dosing system. I attended the property earlier this week. Copper levels for this system are 0.2-0.5 copper and the testes results were showing 0.6. Therefore I find it hard to believe it is a build up of residual copper in the water. The cartridge filters (4 filters) are being cleaned every 2 weeks by the client and none of this gel is forming in the filters at all. I have cleaned and calibrated the ph sensor and have replaced the feed tubes and all parts on the dosing system as should be done every 6-12 months. I have done a magnesium test and there is basically none present. No metal based algaecides, or other chemicals have gone into the pool as it is well known not to use these products in ionised pools. As I said above, this gel is not visible to the naked eye and is only noticed once you clean out the robotic pool cleaner. There is no copper staining on the pool surface at all. All water test results which I tested this week are all within the parameters of the naked systems recommendations. I have serviced many copper based systems before, and even with extremely high levels of copper in the water I have never seen this gel forming. I believe its from something non related to water chemistry, I just don't know what.

 

[JamesW]

Can you pull the cartridges and show them before and after cleaning?

 

[Newdude]

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[poolshopcdm]

Can you pull the cartridges and show them before and after cleaning?

I'm not returning onsite as it was a once off visit for us to attend the property. However, I did take the filters out and they were spotless with no color tinge evident which would have been bleached or discolored due to copper. Still perfectly white, good condition filters.

 

[Donldson]

I would expect someone with an extensive background in copper based systems to be aware that when copper precipitates out of solution it will no register on water tests.

It defies logic to see something that looks exactly like copper precipitate in the filters of a robot from a pool where copper has been knowingly added and suggest that it cannot be copper precipitate.

 

[Bperry]

I would expect someone with an extensive background in copper based systems to be aware that when copper precipitates out of solution it will no register on water tests.

It defies logic to see something that looks exactly like copper precipitate in the filters of a robot from a pool where copper has been knowingly added and suggest that it cannot be copper precipitate.

Possible the copper is only precipitating out on whatever debris is being collected by the robot? Maybe that debris is composed of something that causes copper to come out of solution?

 

[poolshopcdm]

I am aware that when copper precipitates out of solution, it doesn't register on water testing. However I have never seen it actually form into a gelatinous form/solid, hence why I am searching for advise. If this is the case and it is copper precipitate. What would be the most effective treatment in removing or lowering precipitated copper?

 

[AUSpool]

It is possible that so much has precipitated out from the water that the water tests normal. And it is settling out with the pumps off and being captured by the robot before it can be captured in the filter. I would take a sample, mix with water, and test for copper. I‘m thinking some form of flocculant type product or substance acting as a flocculant that the copper is attracted to. It appears that the pool and robot is doing a good job at reducing the copper.

I would be having a close look at the naked device to make sure it is working as intended and not producing too much copper. Is it even possible to turn them down in winter. Do you actually have a winter at Alice?

Do you have an industry making FG shells in Alice or are they trucked in from Adelaide? That’s quite a feat if it’s the latter. For all our US friends have a quick look where Alice Springs is, smack bang in the middle of one of the world largest deserts And a million miles from anywhere.

 

[Newdude]

*worth noting that .3 is the level we try to avoid for iron and copper.