Mineral system with SWG

[Abnaxis]

The whole reason why I joined this forum is because looking around to see about combined SWG and mineral systems, I percolated my way over here.

As I understand, nobody here is a fan of mineral systems--and I am on board with the reasoning. The gist I get is that the marketing of these systems is "chemical free" or "all natural" or some other nonsense, when in fact there's no getting around actually needing sanitizer to sanitize your water (who knew?). Mineral systems rely on heavy metals that work too slow to kill stuff, so they're still going to take chlorine to work right.

My problem is that nobody actually addressed the reason why I was curious about mineral systems to being with--making the pool safer for all the metallic bits and bobs around it. There a slide with metal bolts and an there's especially an automatic pool cover with nice metal tracks at the house I'm moving into that look almost designed to collect some nice, corrosive salt water while the pool is being used.

I've yet to see a mineral system advertise this, but *in theory* a mineral system needs less chlorine, which *in theory* means less salt, which *in theory* means less corrosion, right? Further, *in theory* an aqueous solution of metallic compounds (like what you get when you're adding all that copper and silver) is itself less corrosive than water without the compounds, isn't it?

If it's not obvious, I'm not super tied to this idea but I haven't seen anyone talk about mineral systems in these terms. It's all theoretical in my head based on some college work where I built a zinc-oxide electrolysis system fifteen years ago and halfway-remember college chemistry courses.

 

[Donldson]

Hm.... no.

I'm afraid I have to shoot down all the theories. Please don't take it personally.

First, a mineral system does not mean less chlorine. No, I don't care what the companies say to try to sell their product, if someone is running 0.5 ppm FC and they have more than the tiniest bit of CYA in the water, then it is not sanitary. Metals prevent algae, they do not sanitize the water. The FC/CYA Levels is the safest and least problematic way to run the water, regardless of how much copper is in it.

Second, an SWG requires a set amount of salt to work. You don't use less salt to get less chlorine, you just run the SWG less. So you aren't reducing the amount of salt in your water.

Third, the amount of salt in a salt pool is not particularly corrosive. It's the pH level and sulfate level that really says whether pool water is corrosive to metals. As you're in Indiana and not the desert, you'll receive plenty of water throughout the summer to make sure there's no buildup of salts on the metal components outside the pool.

Fourth, if there's enough metals in the pool water that it makes the water noticeably less corrosive then you're dealing with a LOT of other very unpleasant situations. The water is likely green, staining everywhere, it would just be a mess. The levels these things operate has to straddle that line between being effective as an algaecide and low enough that they don't stain and that line is razor thin.

There's just no place in a healthy pool for metals. The manufacturers make up a lot of really great sounding marketing materials, but they are nothing but sales tactics and false claims about the horrors of chlorine. Just no good reason to use them, especially if you star the pool out right using TFPC and never have to deal with the terrible (but highly profitable) things you'd be sold by going the pool store route. Remember when I said pH and sulfates are the biggest issues regarding corrosion? Pool stores love to sell acidic chlorine tablets, sulfate containing dry acid, and sulfate containing non-chlorine shock. Yet somehow it's the saltwater that corrodes metals? Na, it's all just marketing. (the "Na" was a joke. Sodium. Ha! I'll show myself out.)

And welcome to TFP!

 

[AK-]

There are two secrets to prevent metal corrosion in a pool (well they are not really secrets):
1 - Keep you water well balanced without chemicals that have no place in a pool
2 - Use metals that are not prone to corrosion such as good quality stainless steel (cheap stainless steal doesn’t count) and brass or coated with corrosion resisting paint

Virtually all metals will eventually in one way or another oxidize and suffer some level of corrosion regardless of what you do to prevent it. If you use the right materials and properly balanced water then that eventually will take many many season to happen.

 

[Newdude]

I've yet to see a mineral system advertise this, but *in theory* a mineral system needs less chlorine

They say it all the time. The copper keeps the algae at bay so you need no, or very very little chlorine for *everything else *

this is a BOLD FACED lie.

Full stop.

Bold. Faced. Lie.

Algae although unsightly is completely harmless. Swimmer to swimmer transmissions of viruses, pathogens, bacteria, etc are the main reason to treat your pool. Algae is simply the canary in the coal mine. If it’s alive, so is everything else. So no matter what, everybody needs full chlorine sanitizing at all times. Ironically if you are properly sanitizing the actual ickies, well, there will be no unsightly algae either. Go figure.

While minerals (usually copper and silver) do in fact inhibit algae growth, they aren't contact killers and take a long time. If added regularly, staining to both pools and swimmers becomes a problem, along with green water at certain FC levels. Seeing how it does nothing to help already sanitary water, it serves no purpose and will only hurt eventually and should be avoided at all costs.

 

[PoolGate]

Saltwater chlorine generators and "mineral" (more on that later) systems are not a "hand in hand" product. Nature2 makes a combined unit but don't be confused thinking that they are a symbiotic system. Saltwater pools create their own chlorine so do not normally require manual addition of chlorine pucks or liquid.

Now, the "mineral" thing. That is PURE marketing. They are a METALS system. They dump copper and silver into your pool water. Copper is an effective algaecide but not a sanitizer. Chlorine is a sanitizer. At a level where chlorine will sanitize pathogens, it also kills algae. Meaning if your pool is properly sanitized using chlorine, the copper does absolutely no good at all since the chlorine killed all the algae. If you "need" copper to kill algae because your chlorine level is too low, your water is unsanitary. Makers of "mineral" systems are lying to you.

 

[Abnaxis]

There are two secrets to prevent metal corrosion in a pool (well they are not really secrets):
1 - Keep you water well balanced without chemicals that have no place in a pool
2 - Use metals that are not prone to corrosion such as good quality stainless steel (cheap Chinese stainless steal doesn’t count) and brass or coated with corrosion resisting paint

Virtually all metals will eventually in one way or another oxidize and suffer some level of corrosion regardless of what you do to prevent it. If you use the right materials and properly balanced water then that eventually will take many many season to happen.

I'm not building my pool, I'm taking over maintenance of a pool from the previous owners of my new house. Short of ripping everything up and replacing it myself I don't think I have much choice in stainless steel quality

As an aside, can you even get stainless steel that doesn't originate from China? Pretty sure if you follow any parts supplier supply chain back far enough eventually the steel leads back to China. At a previous compay I worked for, we basically had to buy from China to stay competitive, but 100% test all materials we got in to make sure they didn't try to sneak recycled junk steel in with the stainless.

Hm.... no.

I'm afraid I have to shoot down all the theories. Please don't take it personally.

First, a mineral system does not mean less chlorine. No, I don't care what the companies say to try to sell their product, if someone is running 0.5 ppm FC and they have more than the tiniest bit of CYA in the water, then it is not sanitary. Metals prevent algae, they do not sanitize the water. The FC/CYA Levels is the safest and least problematic way to run the water, regardless of how much copper is in it.

Second, an SWG requires a set amount of salt to work. You don't use less salt to get less chlorine, you just run the SWG less. So you aren't reducing the amount of salt in your water.

Third, the amount of salt in a salt pool is not particularly corrosive. It's the pH level and sulfate level that really says whether pool water is corrosive to metals. As you're in Indiana and not the desert, you'll receive plenty of water throughout the summer to make sure there's no buildup of salts on the metal components outside the pool.

Fourth, if there's enough metals in the pool water that it makes the water noticeably less corrosive then you're dealing with a LOT of other very unpleasant situations. The water is likely green, staining everywhere, it would just be a mess. The levels these things operate has to straddle that line between being effective as an algaecide and low enough that they don't stain and that line is razor thin.

There's just no place in a healthy pool for metals. The manufacturers make up a lot of really great sounding marketing materials, but they are nothing but sales tactics and false claims about the horrors of chlorine. Just no good reason to use them, especially if you star the pool out right using TFPC and never have to deal with the terrible (but highly profitable) things you'd be sold by going the pool store route. Remember when I said pH and sulfates are the biggest issues regarding corrosion? Pool stores love to sell acidic chlorine tablets, sulfate containing dry acid, and sulfate containing non-chlorine shock. Yet somehow it's the saltwater that corrodes metals? Na, it's all just marketing. (the "Na" was a joke. Sodium. Ha! I'll show myself out.)

And welcome to TFP!

Yeah, that's about what I expected for the SWG. I didn't know if the salt level for it was the threshold needed for electrolysis (so you need that amount), or if it was extra-saturated to increase electorlyte efficience (so it would survive having a little less salt at the cost of more power needed to run). Same for metals--I have no idea how much metal the mineral systems out there use, or whether it's reasonably close to anything that would slow down corrosion.

They say it all the time. The copper keeps the algae at bay so you need no, or very very little chlorine for *everything else *

this is a BOLD FACED lie.

Full stop.

Bold. Faced. Lie.

Algae although unsightly is completely harmless. Swimmer to swimmer transmissions of viruses, pathogens, bacteria, etc are the main reason to treat your pool. Algae is simply the canary in the coal mine. If it’s alive, so is everything else. So no matter what, everybody needs full chlorine sanitizing at all times. Ironically if you are properly sanitizing the actual ickies, well, there will be no unsightly algae either. Go figure.

While minerals (usually copper and silver) do in fact inhibit algae growth, they do *zero* sanitizing. If added regularly, staining to both pools and swimmers becomes a problem, along with green water at certain FC levels. Seeing how it does nothing to help, it serves no purpose and will only hurt eventually and should be avoided at all costs.

Saltwater chlorine generators and "mineral" (more on that later) systems are not a "hand in hand" product. Nature2 makes a combined unit but don't be confused thinking that they are a symbiotic system. Saltwater pools create their own chlorine so do not normally require manual addition of chlorine pucks or liquid.

Now, the "mineral" thing. That is PURE marketing. They are a METALS system. They dump copper and silver into your pool water. Copper is an effective algaecide but not a sanitizer. Chlorine is a sanitizer. At a level where chlorine will sanitize pathogens, it also kills algae. Meaning if your pool is properly sanitized using chlorine, the copper does absolutely no good at all since the chlorine killed all the algae. If you "need" copper to kill algae because your chlorine level is too low, your water is unsanitary. Makers of "mineral" systems are lying to you.

Erm, while what all of you saying is technically true--copper does not have antibacterial applications--it's kinda misleading since the part of mineral systems that's supposed to do the disinfecting is the silver, not the copper. Silver is a WHO-recognized disinfectant for drinking water, but (as I understand) it works too slow to be depended on to kill stuff fast enough for a pool to rely solely on silver as a disinfectant. That's why you're supposedly able to use less chlorine, but still need chlorine.

I mean, to be fair, if the people selling "mineral" (yeah I hate the name too) systems are telling people copper disinfects the water they need to be educated about what they're trying to sell. By the same token, if you're saying that there's no disinfectant in mineral systems because copper only kills algae that also seems to be a gap in understanding.

 

[Newdude]

Erm, while what all of you saying is technically true--copper does not have antibacterial applications--it's kinda misleading since the part of mineral systems that's supposed to do the disinfecting is the silver, not the copper

Not all systems use both. Some are just copper. Either way the manufacturers directly either mislead or lie to make their case and it’s flat out dangerous to the general public.

We had an ‘in the industry’ member come and go very quickly recently. She was recommending copper ionizers as an ‘eco friendly’ alternative to her high end clients. (Celebrity / CEO types). Like the ‘naturally occurring mineral’ didn’t need to be strip mined, killing local ecosystems and polluting the earth in order to appear in the customers backyard.


It was very eco friendly once it was there. It still wasn’t good for the pool though. And if they believed her and didn’t sanitize on their own, it wasn’t good for the swimmers either.

So our argument always goes back to the simplest question. If you have to fully treat the pool, why spend good money on something that does nothing to treat the pool ?

 

[Abnaxis]

Not all systems use both. Some are just copper. Either way the manufacturers directly either mislead or lie to make their case and it’s flat out dangerous to the general public.

Bweh?

OK, here's what you do. You install their system, follow all the directions, don't for the love of god use the pool, take a water sample, show the bacteria in it, and sue their asses off.

Seriously. There's stuff you can get away with for marketing sake (like calling a silver metal disinfectant system a "mineral" system), but calling something that isn't a disinfectant a disinfectant isn't one of them, at least in the US.

 

[PoolGate]

The jury is still out on how to use silver as a sanitizer. I would love to see more research on this especially on using silver (and other metals) as an actual sanitizer for food grade applications. For now I am not aware of any research that shows how much is needed and for how long is it effective against bacteria and other pathogens. Chlorine, on the other hand, is a proven and effective sanitizer with known dosages. It is cheap and easy to dose a specific amount.

 

[Donldson]

Silver in pool water is not a disinfectant nor does it's presence allow water to remain sanitary while using reduced chlorine. While silver has anti-microbial properties unless you are accurately measuring and dosing enough to achieve the required kill rates you cannot say it is doing anything. Add to that any metal system seller who calls their system a sanitation system is falling on the wrong side of the law. Only systems that also introduce chlorine, bromine, or biguanide may be referred to as sanitation systems in the US. Don't let the marketing fool you, the chlorine is the sanitizer, the metals are algaecides.

Now I'm a little concerned because I'm starting to hear some very marketing-type things now. Silver being used in drinking water? WHO information that has nothing to do with pools? Twisting of facts to fit a pro-ionizer narrative while accusing others of being misleading? These are not typically the things you hear from a brand new pool owner. Probably just my imagination, but I've seen a lot in my time on the forum and that's something that raises my eyebrows.

 

[Newdude]

but calling something that isn't a disinfectant a disinfectant isn't one of them, at least in the US.

It’s all stated somewhat truthfully, albeit in lawyer speak in the 96 page terms/conditions/disclaimers. That are conveniently shrunk down to fit on a business card that you can carry with you. So thoughtful.

 

[PoolGate]

Silver in pool water is not a disinfectant nor does it's presence allow water to remain sanitary while using reduced chlorine. While silver has anti-microbial properties unless you are accurately measuring and dosing enough to achieve the required kill rates you cannot say it is doing anything. Add to that any metal system seller who calls their system a sanitation system is falling on the wrong side of the law. Only systems that also introduce chlorine, bromine, or biguanide may be referred to as sanitation systems in the US. Don't let the marketing fool you, the chlorine is the sanitizer, the metals are algaecides.

Now I'm a little concerned because I'm starting to hear some very marketing-type things now. Silver being used in drinking water? WHO information that has nothing to do with pools? Twisting of facts to fit a pro-ionizer narrative while accusing others of being misleading? These are not typically the things you hear from a brand new pool owner. More often they are the types of things coming from someone with a financial interest in the positive portrayal of metal systems. I'm not accusing anything, but after years of experience on this forum I've learned how to spot a red flag or two...

Nature2 does not advertise itself as a "sanitizer", but it does say specifically that it "destroys bacteria".

 

[Donldson]

Nature2 does not advertise itself as a "sanitizer", but it does say specifically that it "destroys bacteria".

 

[Abnaxis]

Silver in pool water is not a disinfectant nor does it's presence allow water to remain sanitary while using reduced chlorine. While silver has anti-microbial properties unless you are accurately measuring and dosing enough to achieve the required kill rates you cannot say it is doing anything. Add to that any metal system seller who calls their system a sanitation system is falling on the wrong side of the law. Only systems that also introduce chlorine, bromine, or biguanide may be referred to as sanitation systems in the US. Don't let the marketing fool you, the chlorine is the sanitizer, the metals are algaecides.

Now I'm a little concerned because I'm starting to hear some very marketing-type things now. Silver being used in drinking water? WHO information that has nothing to do with pools? Twisting of facts to fit a pro-ionizer narrative while accusing others of being misleading? These are not typically the things you hear from a brand new pool owner. Probably just my imagination, but I've seen a lot in my time on the forum and that's something that raises my eyebrows.

I actually google "copper water sanitation" and "silver water sanitation" and the first things that popped up were WHO white-papers about copper having algaecide propoerties--not in the interest of using it as one, but because copper from pipes leeches into drinking water and they're documenting whether it's safe or not which I think is telling for it's use even for algae--and silver being antibacterial with new applications being developed in nanosilver (now there's a trendy name!). I haven't read through the references where the scientists (presumably) actually tested the antimicrobial properties, but that's on the to-read list later for when I have time to digest a dense scholarly article.

No offense, I'm taking many of the highlights of everything you're telling me and Goggleplexing them to find confirmation from more reputable sources. I'm sure you're all nice people, but you're all internet strangers and I trust peer-reviewed strangers a lot more

 

[Abnaxis]

The jury is still out on how to use silver as a sanitizer. I would love to see more research on this especially on using silver (and other metals) as an actual sanitizer for food grade applications. For now I am not aware of any research that shows how much is needed and for how long is it effective against bacteria and other pathogens. Chlorine, on the other hand, is a proven and effective sanitizer with known dosages. It is cheap and easy to dose a specific amount.

Yeah my reading is giving me that impression as well. It seems like nobody knows half of what they're talking about, there's some evidence that might maybe suggest that metals work for sanitation, and none of the current research is going to be focused on pools because drinking water (obviously) is going to have more critical applications.

Basically, everyone who has a mineral system for their pool is somewhere between being bamboozled and being a guinea pig for people implementing system based on not-a-whole-lot-but-not-none empircal data. Who knows, maybe in fifteen years someone can gather samples and actually learn if the metals are doing anything, but I'll probably stay away from them for now.

 

[PoolGate]

I wouldn't trust anything the WHO puts their name on especially after the COVID-19 fiasco. And I'm not saying there isn't alternative pool care methods. But this isn't a debate site on the merits of one method over another it's a site specifically for the proven tfp method. That's why this post was moved. I do enjoy talking about it and hope to learn from this thread.

 

[Newdude]

I'm sure you're all nice people, but you're all internet strangers and I trust peer-reviewed strangers a lot more

And preach !!! Please go right ahead and find us better science. Post it up and we will gladly digest it.

Then we can debate if said science can be replicated in a $500 pool device outside of a lab.

Find it and we will go from there.

 

[Newdude]

Oooooooh !!! I almost forgot. Wanna know what else I trust almost as much as actual science ? Real world results.

Thousands and thousands of members finding their way here after those systems did nothing like was promised. If even 2% of them did anything even remotely close to what the manufacturers claim, there would be a whole sub group here discussing them at times, just like we do with SWGs.

We have advised countless people building their pools to steer clear of them and many chose not to listen. Not a one of them came back to tell us we were wrong. Not one. Many, however, did come back between 6 months and 2 years and were finally ready to listen.

So there is science-science, and real world science. According to the manufacturer, a copper bracelet will cure all my aches and pains too. Maybe I can get a two-fer if I wear it while swimming.

 

[AK-]

Oooooooh !!! I almost forgot. Wanna know what else I trust almost as much as actual science ? Real world results.

Thousands and thousands of members finding their way here after those systems did nothing like was promised. If even 2% of them did anything even remotely close to what the manufacturers claim, there would be a whole sub group here discussing them at times, just like we do with SWGs.

We have advised countless people building their pools to steer clear of them and many chose not to listen. Not a one of them came back to tell us we were wrong. Not one. Many, however, did come back between 6 months and 2 years and were finally ready to listen.

So there is science-science, and real world science. According to the manufacturer, a copper bracelet will cure all my aches and pains too. Maybe I can get a two-fer if I wear it while swimming.

I don’t think the OP is a challenging TFP.
Seems the challenge is towards the fact we oppose alternative methods and in that the OP has a point: the advice should be more towards the facts we don’t believe in mineral system, we know metals above certain concentrations cause stains, copper tints blond hair and fingernails green, Chlorine alone can keep a crystal clear sanitary pool with minimal effort and lowest costs possible and chlorine is as safe as it can be (all “downsides” of chlorine are due to improper use).

What I’m curious is why the OP would ask so fiercely about mineral systems? The only reasonable explanation I can see (and I’m asking because I may have missed the point) is that the OP believes chlorine is somehow bad, what would go directly against the peer-reviewed motto.

 

[Newdude]

I don’t think the OP is a challenging TFP

I didn't imply he did, he mentioned peer reviewed science. I mentioned my own kinda peer review.