Losing Prime after 5min

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peacefulkancer

peacefulkancer

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LifeTime Supporter
Aug 5, 2013
219
Chandler, AZ
Pool Size
12000
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Pump seems to prime and fill basket and have proper flow. Then after about 5mins the flow drops down to almost nothing.

Things I've cleaned:
  1. Cleaned the filters - no effect.
  2. Cleaned the filter o-ring and used silicone lube- no effect.
  3. Cleaned the pump o-ring and used silicone lube - no effect.
  4. Cleaned the Jandy 3-way o-ring and used silicone lube- no effect.
  5. Cleaned the pump basket out (not dirty) - no effect.
  6. Cleaned the skimmer basket (not dirty) - no effect.
  7. Cleaned the impeller (not dirty) - no effect.
  8. Cleaned the IC40 for debris and buildup - no effect.
Tests:
  1. Hose into pump basket. Pump seemed to pull water in fine (at least at priming speeds).
  2. Stuck a water bladder into the side port with pump cover off - strong flow into basket when 3 way was only to pump (blocking the skimmer).
  3. Stuck a water bladder into the skimmer hole towards the floor - bladder pressurized but when turned off water, could not get bladder off (clogged line going to floor or floor isn't routed to the skimmer as I think?)
  4. Stuck a water bladder into the skimmer hole towards the pump with pump cover off - no flow into basket regardless of where 3-way valve was at.
  5. Stuck the water bladder into the 3-way towards the side port and received flow out the side port.
  6. Stuck the water bladder into the 3-way towards the skimmer and it seemed to flow, but decreased.

Because of points 4 and 6 above I am lead to believe that the pipe from my skimmer to my 3-way is either clogged or has a leak. My guess is that because the VS starts at high RPM it is able to overcome the issue and prime but when it drops to the lower 1900 RPM it loses prime after some time as that is a lower suction and is basically losing the battle with the leak/clog.

With all that said, once it "loses prime" there is still some flow on the outlets. The flow meter also reports the flow has dropped (flow is registered as ~20GPM @1900RPM, IC40 reads low flow).

I've tried cycling the 3-way from side-to-skimmer to create a pulsing suction to try to pull out the clog and it does not seem to work. I've also tried to just run off the side port but it (strangely) seems to lose flow on the overall system going through there too.

Nowhere on the premises do I see any indication of water pooling on the surface or the ground being wet. The pool equipment is about 5ft from the pool and there is cool deck all around the pool itself so if it is leaking I may not even be able to see it I suppose.

I plan on doing the bucket test tonight just to see if I can see anything for that.

Side note: Last two seasons I have struggled with algae. Didn't matter much of what I changed the settings to. Even after shocking and clearing the test I'd always immediately have another outbreak. Only reason I mention this is because I've read that if you have a leak that algae might be an ongoing issue.

Ideas? Do I need to have the line snaked? Do I need to have the lines leak/pressure tested? Any other tests to do?
 

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One more test. Take the guts out of the three way valve and then test for flow from the skimmer. Inspect that the 3 way valve internals are not damaged.

They make pretty low cost snake cameras for your smart phone. Check that out.
 
Pool_Medic said:
I suspect the 3 way valve is compromised in someway. One quick way to check (since pump is so close to pool) would be to hook up a dummy line from pool to suction side of pump.
Click to expand...
mknauss said:
One more test. Take the guts out of the three way valve and then test for flow from the skimmer. Inspect that the 3 way valve internals are not damaged.

They make pretty low cost snake cameras for your smart phone. Check that out.
Click to expand...
For test 5 and 6 I took out the inside of the pump-side 3-way and stuck the water bladder into the appropriate side to test.

Test 5: When inserted into the 2" side port pipe I get flow out the side port.
Test 6: When inserted into the 2.5" skimmer pipe I get a very decreased flow.

I cannot say how much is coming out as I am just feeling under water for flow.

The part that seems to be most a problem is Test #4. When putting the water bladder into the skimmer hole I get no flow to the skimmer basket. In fact, the hose pressurized so much that it blew up my water bladder. When I did the same test going into the side port I would get full flow and the pump basket would overflow with water coming from the side port from the water bladder and hose attachment. Which makes me think that the main suction line is clogged.

How does one make a dummy line? Clock the pump (disconnect in and out) and make a new run from the pump directly to the pool with a 90 degree PVC piece?

*I did buy a snake camera*
 
Om confused by your terminology of bladder?

You make a dummy line by disconnecting suction end of pump, buy a section of spa flex that’s needed to get it into your pool on the surface, along with the matching union to your pump. If the pump acts fine this way then you’re certain it’s a possible suction leak either at the bottom of the skimmer or in the actual buried line.
 
I'm a bit baffled at the moment. I put the pool valve on recirculate and am bypassing the filter. I have water coming into the pump. Primed. Flowing at 1900rpm. IC40 reads flow. Water is flowing into the skimmer. And I have good flow coming out the ports.

But when I did the test the other day into the skimmer port (that goes to the pump) I got zero flow to the 3-way/pump.

Going to have to repair the water bladder and test again because this makes no sense (unless it unclogged itself).
 
More tests:

Test 1:
Water bladder (link) into the skimmer hole at bottom with pump basket open. Water flowed freely into the pump basket which conforms that I have no clog in the pipe from the skimmer to the pump.

Test 2:
Flowing water through skimmer to pump and then recirculate on the pump valve. Pump at 1900rpm. Water flows and flowmeter reads 35gpm. I let this run for like 6hrs just to see if it ever lost any flow and it did not. This confirms to me that the pump is OK and the piping to the pump is also OK. Pump also shows no ongoing cavitation - just a few bubbles at the lid that stay there and don't grow.

Test 3:
Water flowing through skimmer to pump and then filter on the pump valve. Pump at 1900rpm. System primes and comes off prime to 1900rpm. IC40 reads flow, but about 30-60s later it reads flow low (~20gpm). This confirms to me that either the pool valve or the filter is bad.

Work Done:
  1. I don't think I've mentioned this but I've recently taken the filter apart, twice, and cleaned the filters. The problem was present before this work. Right now I do not have the filters charged with DE. I've thoroughly inspected the large top-bottom o-ring and also silicon lubed the o-ring with no improvement. There is no leaking from the pump halves or from the top gauge.
  2. Took the pump valve apart today and the o-ring looks a bit subpar - like a little melted (it is hot in AZ?). Maybe this is why I can flow in recirculate but not filter - the O-ring to complete the path for recirculate is still good where the o-ring for the filter path is letting air in. I put some silicon lube on the o-ring with no improvement.

Historical data (not sure when I did this, but I think it was probably last year, lets say March 2020):
Clean Filter (no DE):
1610RPM, 0psi, 40gpm
2500RPM, 9psi, 60gpm

Clean filter (DE charged):
1610RPM, 0psi, 40gpm
2500RPM, 9psi, 60gpm
Click to expand...

Just showing the above as it seems like there is a vast difference between the values I am getting now and what I had a year ago.
 
This type of DE filter is a cartridge filter with DE added. Could the cartridges be compromised by scale or oils? Has the filter been pumped through for a significant time without DE in it?
 

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So short answer is yes, the filter was ran without DE on it for more than the 3 mins stated in the manual - my idiocy.

With that said, I tore down the filter once again and cleaned it. There is no visual damage to the filter but I decided to clean it really good again with as high of a pressure as the hose would allow me to do. There was little black dots all over the pleats (dirt) so I washed those as best I could. Unfortunately there is no way to really scrub them as they are pleated. I did not see any scale as mentioned. When I was done, aside from some of the black speckles remaining in the filter material - the filters looked brand new.

Re-installed and recharged DE. I also used a different method - a method I should have been using all along - to charge the DE. Normally I just scoop it into the skimmer. This time I pre-mixed a slush in a bucket and then tossed it into the skimmer.

Pressure is 5psi @1900RPM with 30GPM. IC40 reads flow as well.

With that said, how does one know they've ruined their filters (aside from obvious physical damage such as rips)?
 
Cartridge filters typically only fail when either the media is compromised (torn) or the end caps deteriorate to the point they do not seal in side the housing.
They can also be compromised if one does not soak them in TSP prior to acid soak them. The oils that build up have to be removed prior to using acid.
 
So is a Quad DE considered a true cartridge filter since it is DE?

An in my case am I guessing right in that the filter had dirt stuck in it? Didnt TSP or acid or anything else.
 
Hmm - I would think that the cartridge is a special media. But not sure.
Let's see if an owner of one of these - @JoyfulNoise - can give us some information.
 
No. The QuadDE cartridges are NOT the same material as standard filter cartridges. They are a spun polypropylene material that offers greater rigidity for holding DE. Regular cartridge filter cartridges are a softer material with greater surface area to enable good filtration at low head loss.

QuadDE cartridges cost more to replace. A full set will easily run over $500.
 
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Running a DE filter without DE can cause dirt, even microscopic dirt, to clog the filter cartridge or grids. This will damage the cartridge or grids by making them less water permeable (less flow) and they will need more frequent cleaning to be effective. Any large debris that makes it to the filter may cut or tear the cartridge or grids as well. The material in the cartridge or grids is the framework to hold the filter media (DE) in place so it can collect all the debris from the pool water. DE provides the filtration, not the cartridge or grids.
 
So the only way you're going to know if the filter is damaged is if you see a degradation or shortened cleaning cycle it seems.
 
Moe 103 said:
Any updates?
Click to expand...
So my saga continues. I bought new (off-brand) grids since I figured I damaged them by running them too long with no DE. I installed and the pressure was normal and the flow was normal. Yay, right?

It worked great for 1.5 months and now the flow is back to nothing. I had the RPM set to 2200RPM so I moved it to 2900RPM and it worked for about 2 days and now the flow is back too low for the IC40 to work (visually you can tell the flow is down).

I checked and cleaned the pump basket as normal and nothing too exciting. Cleaned the skimmer basket as it was full (I have palm trees that destroy my pool) but it made no difference to the flow.

So I am kind of at a loss. I am not sure how in 2 months the pool goes from great flow to almost no flow.

Tomorrow I will tear the filter down once again but honestly this tearing down the filter every two months and recharging is ridiculous (If I backwash this doesnt fix the flow problem).
 
Cleaned the filter today. They were dirty. As I've never seen anyone elses Quad DE filters when they are "dirty" so I cannot compare. I know everyone says they clean their filter (or backwash) when psi goes X% higher than clean. But mine never moves that much before my flow drops low enough that the IC40 stops working. I can confirm that the flow is lower on the FlowVis.

Maybe I am just not cleaning them enough because I have four palms that destroy my pool (especially this time of year when they are flowering/seeding)?
 

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