Looking for general electrical help before ordering my above ground pool

[Stylez78]

So I have been looking at pools for a while and trying to decide what to buy size wise based upon where in the yard I can place it. The biggest factor for me was getting electric from the panel to the backyard for the pool. I have a 200 amp panel that is on the right side of the house, I wanted to place the pool more on the left side of the back yard, so I felt to come out the side of the house where the panel is I would have to trench up the side of the house into the back yard, around the patio and then across the entire yard and felt it would be a ton of work. So recently we had the basement renovated and I had electrical work done, I had the electrician run a dedicated line across the house through the basement out the left side of the house on a 20amp circuit (we used 12/2 romex for the run). If I had to guess I'd say this run itself is probably 30ft already. My plan was when we got the pool to run the PVC pipe off the box on the side of the house down into the ground and trench out to where the pool is, using THHN wire.

I am looking at a 24ft round pool and I was looking at a 190sqft 2hp dual speed pump. The pump says at high speed it pulls 10.5 amps and low speed 3.5 amps. Inside the owners manual of the pump it says for the 1.5-2hp pump for a 0-100' to use 12 gauge wire, then it says for 101-200' to use 8 gauge wire.

I wanted to place the pool further towards the back of the yard to not cut off most of the yard area, that would place the pool pump / equipment about 100 feet from the house, so if I had to guess i'm in the 130-150ft range. So here are some of my questions I am trying to answer

1. If I keep to my plan, would I remove the 12/2 romex I had run through the house to the side and replace it with 8/2 romex to the be splice in the box on the side of the house with THHN 8guage wire into PVC pipe and trenched the 100 or so feet out to the pool? I would also assume if I wanted to not splice I could run all THHN wire from the breaker, through the basement, out the side of the house down into the trench and out to the pool area and just PVC pipe it all even through the joists in the house? This probably costs more but no splice would help with voltage drop? Just asking generally here if either way could be done.
2. If I wanted to keep the 12/2 romex already run through the house out to the side (which is already roughly 30ft maybe less hard to measure exactly), if I splice that to THHN 12 gauge wire and run roughly another 50ft and place the pool in that area would that be acceptable, I'd be under the 100' and should be okay?
3. If I wanted to run a salt system as well, would this single run be okay to run both pump and salt system or would I need a 2nd feed off the breaker out to the area for that?

Thank you for taking the time to look over and help out, i'm trying to get away with not having to redo work I already did but if I need to for safety of course I would, other options could be down size the pool as it is closer to the house and not have it take up so much room.

 

[PoolGate]

Without addressing each of your questions, the bottom line is you need to supply the total power requirements for the pool. Most pool pumps are 220 volt. Most SWGs are also 220 volt. If you ever want to run a heater, they are also 220 volt. My suggestion is to check power requirements for the equipment you are getting and see what you need. You need to account for:

Pump
SWG
Lights
Courtesy Outlet (poolside radio, robot cleaner, etc)

Most likely 220 volt 30 amps is a good start without accounting for a heater (heat pump).

 

[VinnyinNJ]

I don't think an AG pool uses 220 V, probably most likely 120V, I know my SWG is 120 and it is plugged into my courtesy outlet which is a bummer for me I haven't looked at the pump's plate but I believe that's on 120 V as well. But you do have to take everything into consideration.

As far as anything else I suggest to go by the NEC codes to properly install the equipment.

 

[Stylez78]

None of the equipment is 220v. Everything is 120v.

I checked into the NEC code and it gets funky because I see charts that say 94 for 6awg but I also seen NEC calculators that say for a 3% drop over 100 feet you can use 10awg, if you are okay with 5% drop 12awg is fine at 100 feet. Now I am no electrical technician or engineer but I have seen where it says that you shouldn't exceed 80% load on a individual circuit, not sure how that factors in with voltage drop. I've had a few electricians out who have all said multiple things.

I would guess end of day it better to go with a thicker wire as it can't hurt and it is safer? I just hate to rip out what is there if I could make it work some how. Anyone have experience with electric when it comes to this and can help?

 

[VinnyinNJ]

None of the equipment is 220v. Everything is 120v.

I checked into the NEC code and it gets funky because I see charts that say 94 for 6awg but I also seen NEC calculators that say for a 3% drop over 100 feet you can use 10awg, if you are okay with 5% drop 12awg is fine at 100 feet. Now I am no electrical technician or engineer but I have seen where it says that you shouldn't exceed 80% load on a individual circuit, not sure how that factors in with voltage drop. I've had a few electricians out who have all said multiple things.

I would guess end of day it better to go with a thicker wire as it can't hurt and it is safer? I just hate to rip out what is there if I could make it work some how. Anyone have experience with electric when it comes to this and can help?

I'm not an electrician or an EE but I think the 80% figure is to limit the amount of receptacles being added to the circuit so 15 amp circuit can only have 12 outlets/lights with I guess the idea being 1 amp per outlet. Voltage drop is something else so if you start out at 120 V and it drops 5% you now have 114 V. I think overloading a circuit or under volting a device can lead to issues; I'll leave it at that ... I don't have the knowledge to speak more about it.

 

[VinnyinNJ]

I'm not an electrician or an EE but I think the 80% figure is to limit the amount of receptacles being added to the circuit so 15 amp circuit can only have 12 outlets/lights with I guess the idea being 1 amp per outlet. Voltage drop is something else so if you start out at 120 V and it drops 5% you now have 114 V. I think overloading a circuit or under volting a device can lead to issues; I'll leave it at that ... I don't have the knowledge to speak more about it.

I stated this wrong! The 80% does limit the number of receptacles to 12 but it also limits the current draw to 80% as well so the max current "allowed" is 12 Amps on a 15 Amp circuit.

 

[Stylez78]

I stated this wrong! The 80% does limit the number of receptacles to 12 but it also limits the current draw to 80% as well so the max current "allowed" is 12 Amps on a 15 Amp circuit.

I appreciate the reply and the info. The current line is on a 20amp dedicated circuit so nothing is on it but the eventual pool pump. The pump I want to get has a max draw of 14amps.
The biggest thing that comes into play here is the distance. If my current romex run off the breaker is running across the house and I want to over estimate it at 30 feet, based on NEC code I'd have to bring the pool like right next to the house to be in compliance. So it seems like I probably should just pull that out and just stick in 6 or 8 awg and run it out to wear I want it to go.

 

[Stylez78]

The more I am thinking about this the more I think what is probably the smartest things to do is use that 12/2 Romex run to continue to a different outlet nearby for maybe outdoor lights or to plug something in temporary pool vac etc. Run a brand new 6 or 8 AWG off the breaker through the basement out the side of the house and through PVC conduit out to the pool for the dedicated pump outlet.

 

[toolerb50]

Another thing to consider since it looks like you are in NY would be heating options which depending on heating choice may increase amperage requirements if electric or running a natural gas line to the pump location.

 

[VinnyinNJ]

Another thing to consider since it looks like you are in NY would be heating options which depending on heating choice may increase amperage requirements if electric or running a natural gas line to the pump location.

I didn't think of this but this is so true! I know NYC (not sure if it's all of NYS) has mandated all new housing construction be all electric, not sure about other structures. This may dictate a couple of types of lined being run to a pool pad, 220V and 120V if a heater is being considered. We didn't consider a heater on our AG pool but people do use them.

 

[phonedave]

Be sure to look at the code for where you live. Some towns add to the NEC. Some want disconnects by the pool, some want locking receptacles, who knows what yours wants.

I

 

[AK-]

Trick questions there...

I ran a 6/3 romex 75ft inside the basement and thru the basement wall to an external sub-panel and from the sub-panel I ran 5ft 4x8AWG THHN to my 220V 35A heat pump, 7 ft 3x10AWG THHN to a GE 40A Z-Wave Outdoor Switch and another 4ft to the 120V 1.5HP 12A single speed pump. My SWG setup to work on 120V (some can do both 120v and 220v) is wired directly to the GE Switch. All with permits and passed all inspections... in hindsight I should have invested a little more to install a 4/3 romex instead and have room to replace my heat pump with out touching the wiring, but in hindsight I should have gone for a bigger heatpump and a variable speed pump.

You need to check what version of NEC your state requires, what are state/county/town specific amendments to NEC. If I'm not mistaken NY still used the 2017 version of NEC, so few things to keep in mind:

• You need a way to disconnect the pump within 4ft from the pump (both my sub-panel and the Z-Wave Switch check that box)
• The use of a 3-prong cable may be an acceptable way to disconnect the pump, but will depend of a lot of factors, such as what the pump manual says (mine came with a 3-prong cable, but the manual says to hardwired it) and the mood of the inspector.
• You need 15A WR/TR "utility" outlet within 5-15ft from the pool (no outlets within 5ft from the pool wall)
• What is written on the equipment manual matters. If the manual says you need a 8AWG wire even though a 10AWG would do the work your inspector may not approve it...
• Building inspectors sometimes are not the most knowledgeable professionals (I got luck and the one on my town is fantastic), but you still need to make them happy (if you are right you can always fight him, but that take longer and be most expensive than making him happy).

I'd try to ask the town inspector what he would approve (you are going to need a electrical permit anyway)....

Side Note: In your area you may want to consider some way to heat your pool or at least have room in the electrical wiring to do so later.

 

[Stylez78]

Trick questions there...

I ran a 6/3 romex 75ft inside the basement and thru the basement wall to an external sub-panel and from the sub-panel I ran 5ft 4x8AWG THHN to my 220V 35A heat pump, 7 ft 3x10AWG THHN to a GE 40A Z-Wave Outdoor Switch and another 4ft to the 120V 1.5HP 12A single speed pump. My SWG setup to work on 120V (some can do both 120v and 220v) is wired directly to the GE Switch. All with permits and passed all inspections... in hindsight I should have invested a little more to install a 4/3 romex instead and have room to replace my heat pump with out touching the wiring, but in hindsight I should have gone for a bigger heatpump and a variable speed pump.

You need to check what version of NEC your state requires, what are state/county/town specific amendments to NEC. If I'm not mistaken NY still used the 2017 version of NEC, so few things to keep in mind:

• You need a way to disconnect the pump within 4ft from the pump (both my sub-panel and the Z-Wave Switch check that box)
• The use of a 3-prong cable may be an acceptable way to disconnect the pump, but will depend of a lot of factors, such as what the pump manual says (mine came with a 3-prong cable, but the manual says to hardwired it) and the mood of the inspector.
• You need 15A WR/TR "utility" outlet within 5-15ft from the pool (no outlets within 5ft from the pool wall)
• What is written on the equipment manual matters. If the manual says you need a 8AWG wire even though a 10AWG would do the work your inspector may not approve it...
• Building inspectors sometimes are not the most knowledgeable professionals (I got luck and the one on my town is fantastic), but you still need to make them happy (if you are right you can always fight him, but that take longer and be most expensive than making him happy).

I'd try to ask the town inspector what he would approve (you are going to need a electrical permit anyway)....

Side Note: In your area you may want to consider some way to heat your pool or at least have room in the electrical wiring to do so later.

#1, thank you for the extremely detailed reply!! It was amazingly helpful.

I am curious where did you mount the external sub-panel? Did you mount it to the side of your house? Is an external sub-panel weatherproof? Do you need to buy a certain kind that works outside?

Thinking about this for my situation I could run a 6/3 romex or even 4/3 to a subpanel on the side of the house and then run my THHN lines off the panel into Sch 40 PVC under ground the 100 or so feet to the pool area. I am not 100% sure if I ever will put a heater or not. I know my area it will help get the pool open and stay open longer but on some levels I never had one as a kid and we swam just fine! lol, still I like options and rather build those options in now.

Maybe it might just be better to fork over the extra $ for #4 AWG cable and run it all the way out into the yard and maybe build some sort of housing to mount a sub-panel too? It may look ugly having a 4 x 4 or 6 x 6 5-6ft off the ground with a sub-panel mounted on it just randomly out in the yard (my yard is totally open no structures or trees) but it might be more cost effective than having to run different conduits or having to trench 100+ feet multiple times over the years to add on as I go. At least if there is enough power already out there I can tap off and make shorter runs off that. I guess that makes sense?

 

[AK-]

I am curious where did you mount the external sub-panel? Did you mount it to the side of your house? Is an external sub-panel weatherproof? Do you need to buy a certain kind that works outside?

This is the panel I used: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00002N7N6
I wish it was a little bigger, but it did the job. This is not the only outdoors panel out there. BTW, getting the 35A and 20A GFCI breakers for it wasn't the easiest thing in the world as they were out of stock in most places (not sure now).
The fact my main panel and the sub-panel on my garage are Eaton also doesn't help as now I have to keep differnt types of spare breakers around.

I have the 6/3 romex coming thru the wall behind the box (used a small piece of 3/4 PVC pipe to protect from abrasion on contact with the concrete):

For full disclosure, on the other side of the wall, in the basement, is my mechanical room, so the cable coming down from the ceiling and into the wall was not a big deal.
I originally had dreams of having a junction box on the other side of the wall, but there is no way to make a 6/4 romex to turn 90º inside a junction box.

Few other examples of outdoor panels: https://www.amazon.com/Corporation-Br48L125Rp-Outdoor-Center-125-Amp/dp/B002YF4PCI https://www.amazon.com/Siemens-W0816ML1125CU-Circuit-Outdoor-Center/dp/B00002N7KJ
Note: Amazon my not be the best place to by electrical stuff.

Thinking about this for my situation I could run a 6/3 romex or even 4/3 to a subpanel on the side of the house and then run my THHN lines off the panel into Sch 40 PVC under ground the 100 or so feet to the pool area. I am not 100% sure if I ever will put a heater or not. I know my area it will help get the pool open and stay open longer but on some levels I never had one as a kid and we swam just fine! lol, still I like options and rather build those options in now.

I also grew up without heating (granted in a much hotter climate)... but the simple fact I already put my pool to good use this year (Yeah, it is April...) is the biggest advantage of having a heater.

Maybe it might just be better to fork over the extra $ for #4 AWG cable and run it all the way out into the yard and maybe build some sort of housing to mount a sub-panel too? It may look ugly having a 4 x 4 or 6 x 6 5-6ft off the ground with a sub-panel mounted on it just randomly out in the yard (my yard is totally open no structures or trees) but it might be more cost effective than having to run different conduits or having to trench 100+ feet multiple times over the years to add on as I go. At least if there is enough power already out there I can tap off and make shorter runs off that. I guess that makes sense?

Again, you will need to check what are the requirement to install the sub-panel. You don't necessarily need a subpanel, but I believe it makes easier and cheaper than running different branches all the way from the main panel.
Another thing to take into consideration is your soil type... I live in the top of the hill and feels like rocks are procreating all the time... Digging a trench is not an easy task on my yard.

 

[toolerb50]

#1, thank you for the extremely detailed reply!! It was amazingly helpful.

I am curious where did you mount the external sub-panel? Did you mount it to the side of your house? Is an external sub-panel weatherproof? Do you need to buy a certain kind that works outside?

Thinking about this for my situation I could run a 6/3 romex or even 4/3 to a subpanel on the side of the house and then run my THHN lines off the panel into Sch 40 PVC under ground the 100 or so feet to the pool area. I am not 100% sure if I ever will put a heater or not. I know my area it will help get the pool open and stay open longer but on some levels I never had one as a kid and we swam just fine! lol, still I like options and rather build those options in now.

Maybe it might just be better to fork over the extra $ for #4 AWG cable and run it all the way out into the yard and maybe build some sort of housing to mount a sub-panel too? It may look ugly having a 4 x 4 or 6 x 6 5-6ft off the ground with a sub-panel mounted on it just randomly out in the yard (my yard is totally open no structures or trees) but it might be more cost effective than having to run different conduits or having to trench 100+ feet multiple times over the years to add on as I go. At least if there is enough power already out there I can tap off and make shorter runs off that. I guess that makes sense?

If getting inspected you may want to call your city or county to see if they will approve sch 40 pvc. Some municipalities require sch 80 for burial which was in my case.

 

[AK-]

If getting inspected you may want to call your city or county to see if they will approve sch 40 pvc. Some municipalities require sch 80 for burial which was in my case.

Some localities (counties and municipalities) have their our build code amendments, but that kind of thing usually falls under the "mood" of the inspector. NEC is clear that sch 40 can be buried and sch 80 should be required where physical damage is likely. But fighting the inspector may be more expensive than just using the sch 80.
Another alternative is to use direct burial cables (no PVC involved). Most homes with underground connection use those (mine do).
Don't fall for the trap of shallow trench cables even if they are acceptable by code they tend to be pushed up towards surface due to yearly freezing/thawing cycles.

 

[Stylez78]

Some localities (counties and municipalities) have their our build code amendments, but that kind of thing usually falls under the "mood" of the inspector. NEC is clear that sch 40 can be buried and sch 80 should be required where physical damage is likely. But fighting the inspector may be more expensive than just using the sch 80.
Another alternative is to use direct burial cables (no PVC involved). Most homes with underground connection use those (mine do).
Don't fall for the trap of shallow trench cables even if they are acceptable by code they tend to be pushed up towards surface due to yearly freezing/thawing cycles.

Seriously thank you for all the help! I cannot stress how much this is helping me to plan out what and how I should do this.

I have had 4 Licensed, insured electricians out to my house. 1 guy was a "Master" electrician. After talking to them hearing their plans, getting estimates I wouldn't let a single one touch anything in my house. All of the wanted to run 12/2 from my panel to the pool. When I questioned voltage drop they all where like nah you are fine, I do this all the time. One guy was like If you want #10 AWG I'll run it but you are wasting your money. Another guy was like 12/2 is fine if you are over 150ft then it may be an issue, but don't worry 12/2 is fine. I then made him count out the run and it was like 175 and he was like well uhh yeah maybe do 10 gauge but if it was my pool I'd just do 12 gauge THHN from panel to pool. Again these guys are all over the place. I asked about putting a sub-panel outside incase I want to run more stuff out in the future. They all scoffed at the idea, not need not worth it. I said what if I want a heater one day and need 220v? Wouldn't the sub-panel help with that? It just became a battle and I was tired of it and at the end of the day not paying the Thousands of dollars these guys wanted to have it done wrong or have my Pump motor blowing out after 2 years cause of too much voltage drop.

My current plan (unless I change my mind again)

• I am going to run 6/3 Romex from my Main panel straight across the basement and out the side of the house to the Waterproof 100amp Sub-Panel. I was told I can run a 100amp Subpanel off a 60 amp breaker in my main panel, so I would use that unless I need a big amp breaker in my main panel for this.
• Off the Sub-Panel I am going to run 1 1/2 sch 40 PVC conduit down into the ground going down 20-24" ( I know code is 18" but I'll go down further just to be safe). Trench that out to the area about 6' from the pool equipment. Set a 4x4 weather treated lumber for mounting equipment.
• inside the Subpanel I'll set a 20amp breaker and run a dedicated 8 AWG THHN runs (I guess I need 3 wires hot neutral and ground) just for the pool pump, that would go to the GFCI outlet and the wire the timer after the GFCI and hook the pump into that.
• I then will run another set of 8 AWG on another 20amp breaker wire through same pipe to same area but for a 2nd GFCI outlet to be used as an outlet for anything else needed that is separate circuit from the pump.
• In the future if I add the heater I should have the space in the Sub-Panel to add the 220v run out to the pool and should have plenty of space in the Conduit for that run. I plan (not sure if this is code or not) to leave a pull string in the conduit so when and if the time comes it is easy to pull the new wire through the conduit in the future.

That should cover me for electrical needs, it might not be 100% up to an inspector standard for cut-off near pool etc, I could prob add that to be safe but no inspector is coming to check this and if they ever did in the future I could deal with it then. This still should be more up to code than any of these Licensed guys said they wanted to do.