Liner hijinx?

[Stylez78]

So I have read up, looked at older posts, checked out the youtube videos all about above ground liner hijinx the companies use to try and sell you on these upgraded liners. The place I am ordering my pool from gave me 3 choices of "upgraded" liner. Now I know the standard overlap comes with it and I hate the overlap look, so I am okay paying up for the j-hook unibead liner. They have a 25, 30 and 40 gauge Swimline liners, with the 40 being PERMA 40, whihc in prior posts and measurements people showed as only 20 mil thickness! Compared to some other places what sell true 25 or 30 mil liners. Since I have no choice and this is where I am getting the pool I initially was just going to pay the $325 extra for the Perma 40 - 40 gauge then noticed it is the sam warranty as the 30 gauge liner of 30 years which cost only $225 more. No idea is one is thicker than the other. Then the 25 gauge has a 25 year warranty cost $175 more says it uses the thickest virgin vinyl blah blah none have true thickness ratings.

So with all this being said...Do I just take the 25 "gauge" cauyse i don't want overlap and call it a day since I can;t get a real sense if any of these are any thicker from each other?

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Using the term "gauge" versus actual thickness is just a marketing ploy to make things sound better. This is the reality -



So 40 "gauge" if its double 20 gauge would be is approximately 37mil whereas 30 gauge is 26mil. I have never had a liner pool nor would want one but I believe that the mantra in the vinyl world is that thicker is always better. So you get the greatest liner thickness with the features you want (J-hook, double welded seams, blah, blah, blah...) that you can afford. All liner manufacturers order their materials from multiple vinyl sources, so there's really no easy way to compare one maker from another. Chlorine and water are going to degrade a liner no matter what and the most life you can expect from it is 12 years or so under OPTIMAL circumstances. Warranties are always written to benefit the MANUFACTURER, not the consumer. If you look at the fine print I guarantee there are strict chemical requirements you would have to maintain and prove to even have them entertain a warranty claim and they will no doubt find any detail imaginable to force blame on you. So I would put very little stock in warranties.

 

[Newdude]

+1. We picked apart a 15 year safety cover warranty a while ago, and buried in the fine print was the prorated reimbursement. Each month removed an equal deduction over the life of the cover. That's fair enough, but they also charged a 15% processing fee that erased a couple of years worth of the warranty paid. Then the customer was responsible for freight shipping costs of the replacement, eating several more years worth of 'savings'. In the end, if they didn't find a way out of honoring the warranty, it no longer made sense to use it for the last 1/2 to 1/3 of the term.

For a liner, you'd also have to prove weekly testing and maintenance by an approved vendor. They would then have 2 outs, blaming you, or the pool service, or both. If paid, the warranty only covers the liner itself, and not the draining, install, filling or balancing.

25 or 30 years on a liner is almost laughable, any one of us would be thrilled with 15 years. Occasionally one makes it to 17-20 years and it's the golden unicorn of its peers.

I always reccomend a thicker liner over a thinner one, hopefully allowing it some extra strength to combat both wear and tear. Or possibly delaying it becoming brittle with age.

Read the fine print on the warranties and I suspect you'll see it heavily in their favor. It can still be a part of your decision, but go in with eyes wide open.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Also, liner thickness is going to be “as-manufactured” … once you put that liner in the pool and water stretches it into place, it’s going to thin out considerably. So that makes initial thickness somewhat crucial.

You also need to consider the base of your pool. If the bottom is ultra-smooth beach sand or maybe you bought some foam sheets and laid those out with all the joints taped, then you might be able to get away with a thinner liner. But if there’s any roughness at all, a thicker liner is going to handle that a lot better.

 

[Stylez78]

All this makes sense, and yeah I don;t ever think i am ever using the warranty. I only mentioned it cause I felt that if one they offer 25 and the other they offer 30 the 30 would be "stronger" most likely. The thing here is there is no true way to know the thickness on any of these liners as "gauge" is a bogus term as is PERMA whatever, none of this tells me if the liner is truly thicker.

Based on an older post someone said they measured the 40 Gauge PERMA 40 liner from Swimline and it was only 20 mil which wouldn't even be considered heavy or thick by most standards. Still I have to choose something and with no real way to truly know if the 25 or 30 or 40 is truly thicker or worth the upcharge it is hard to make a choice. $175 for 25 Gauge, $225 for 30 Gauge, $350 for 40 Gauge. My gut initially wanted to go for the 40 but after reading and digging I was very unsure if this thing is truly as thick as it is advertised.

 

[Newdude]

Contact the manufacturer and maybe you get lucky with someone who knows, or someone who can put you in touch with someone who knows.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

You can call the manufacturer and ask them if they supply a “Certificate of Conformity” with the purchase. In other words, it’s a technical document that declares that the manufacturer has met or exceeded their specification of the product and it’s usually issued by a third party company that does the analysis. So you can ask them about ACTUAL product thickness as-delivered and if they back it up with independent testing and evaluation.

 

[VinnyinNJ]

I can't speak of mils or guage but I think you're putting too much thought into the liner, get the one you like the best.

Our last pool liner was an overlap, probably the lowest mil/guage and lasted 20 years. At around 15 years the bottom which had a pattern started to delaminate and the side ripped at 20 YO.

Our new pool has a beaded liner and we had no choice of thickness just the pattern., apparently they were all the same thickness. Hopefully it'll last as long as our last one!

 

[Stylez78]

I probably was putting too much thought into it but when you ordering a pool and you are given all these options and it is 20 gauge, 25 gauge, 30 gauge 40 gauge! PERMA advanced super poly alloy hyperactive injected molded alpha resistant gamma super omega liner....You get overwhelmed and start to question if the juice is worth the squeeze when jumping up the ladder so to speak. So I was hemming and hawing over do I pay $350 for this 40 gauge liner not knowing if it truly is thicker or heavier etc. End of day I went in the middle took the 30 Gauge wife liked the look best and called it a day.

It is even more sketchy, that the company Swimline who makes the liner, says right on their website....We don't rate our liners in thickness, but rest assured they are as thick as any other liner on the market.... That sounds like a load of you know what to me!! Yeah our liner is good just buy it and the people who sell our liners can come up with any bogus terms they want because we don't rate our liner thickness.

 

[hwy17]

If by overlap look you mean the skirt around the side, that's installation error. They should be trimmed or folded up beneath the top cap and look pretty much the same as a bead liner.

But I do understand how bead liners would be preferable still.

 

[Newdude]

says right on their website....We don't rate our liners in thickness, but rest assured they are as thick as any other liner on the market....

Seran wrap is technically a 'liner' that is on the market.

 

[Stylez78]

If by overlap look you mean the skirt around the side, that's installation error. They should be trimmed or folded up beneath the top cap and look pretty much the same as a bead liner.

But I do understand how bead liners would be preferable still.

I should show you most of the pool installs around here where people get overlap liners!! none of these installers cut anything, they leave it exposed and it looks horrible. Well to me any that my opinion, that why I paid up for J-hook didn't have to bother fighting with installers about cutting back and their contracts that state if they cut it back and liner fails it is on you and not them to fix. It crazy times

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I think it goes without saying that you really can't put any trust in any warranties for pretty much anything these days, especially pool related items. Unless the failure is both catastrophic and completely obvious, the finger-pointing and blame-shifting will start immediately. Warranties are always written with ridiculous terms and conditions and exclusions; it's just the nature of the beast. I'd say the only hassle-free or semi-hassle-free time I have had with warranties is for automobiles BUT, in that case, you've paid so much for a car and any warranty on it that it is basically still a win for the dealership or automaker to replace a couple of parts here and there, even the expensive stuff. You're basically just recovering the money you put into the warranty at that point ... like a savings account with no interest that you forfeit in a few years. It's pure gravy for the automaker/dealer.

So I think you need to look at this more simply - buy the liner you want (and you already have) and then follow what TFP tells you to do and, baring any disasters caused by a lousy installer, you should get a really decent lifetime out of the liner to point that it will be so faded in 12-15 years that you'll be eager to get a new pattern.

 

[VinnyinNJ]

I probably was putting too much thought into it but when you ordering a pool and you are given all these options and it is 20 gauge, 25 gauge, 30 gauge 40 gauge! PERMA advanced super poly alloy hyperactive injected molded alpha resistant gamma super omega liner....You get overwhelmed and start to question if the juice is worth the squeeze when jumping up the ladder so to speak. So I was hemming and hawing over do I pay $350 for this 40 gauge liner not knowing if it truly is thicker or heavier etc. End of day I went in the middle took the 30 Gauge wife liked the look best and called it a day.

It is even more sketchy, that the company Swimline who makes the liner, says right on their website....We don't rate our liners in thickness, but rest assured they are as thick as any other liner on the market.... That sounds like a load of you know what to me!! Yeah our liner is good just buy it and the people who sell our liners can come up with any bogus terms they want because we don't rate our liner thickness.

I understand where you are coming from and I apologize if my post came off negative.

I think sometimes the more choices we have the more issues it creates. In the whole scheme of things and a 10 (or 15 or 20) year time-line whatever extra money you spend will be not a big deal. I didn't have a choice with my last pool since we went with an overlap liner to save money; beaded liners were much more expensive. For our new pool we had a choice of 4 or 5 patterns and all were beaded. It did take us about 15 - 20 minutes trying to decide which pattern would look "the best", having that choice was a big decision for us!

As far as beaded vs overlap, my original pool had blue walls with swirl bottom and the installers did tuck the extra material under the top rail. Beaded liners seem to have many patterns available which is nice. For us the pool seems a little bit fancier with the beaded then the overlap due to the pattern.

 

[Stylez78]

I understand where you are coming from and I apologize if my post came off negative.

I think sometimes the more choices we have the more issues it creates. In the whole scheme of things and a 10 (or 15 or 20) year time-line whatever extra money you spend will be not a big deal. I didn't have a choice with my last pool since we went with an overlap liner to save money; beaded liners were much more expensive. For our new pool we had a choice of 4 or 5 patterns and all were beaded. It did take us about 15 - 20 minutes trying to decide which pattern would look "the best", having that choice was a big decision for us!

As far as beaded vs overlap, my original pool had blue walls with swirl bottom and the installers did tuck the extra material under the top rail. Beaded liners seem to have many patterns available which is nice. For us the pool seems a little bit fancier with the beaded then the overlap due to the pattern.

Nah no negativity taken at all! You are def right it becomes a choice you scrutinize because you are given so many options and told different thicknesses but then not knowing how truthful it actually is makes it difficult. End of day you just have to trust you bought from a good place with good quality and take care of what you bought, hope installers do a good job and it lasts a long time! I appreciate the honest opinions, sometimes it may not be what someone wants to hear, but it is what they need to hear!