Leak - is it this return line in the spa? (Dye test video)

[TexasDogs]

Been in the house 3 years and this is my first pool, plus I'm new to the Texas climate, so over the years I've been pretty stunned by evaporation and wondering if it truly was (yes, I know I should've done a bucket test). However within the past few months, it got WAY worse and I did confirm with bucket test. I've had a few tiles pop off and noticed grout is in poor shape in a few areas so I'm slowly working on that and I sort of chalked the leak up to that. However, after letting water level drop below tile line, bucket test has confirmed there's still a leak. Also all the way below skimmer, so it's not that. So today I finally did a dye test for spots I can get to from above (not willing to brave 50° water to check drains). First time doing dye test but I think I have a (rather unfortunate) smoking gun. One return in the spa appears to be sucking the dye into it. Here's a video:

New video by M F

photos.app.goo.gl

I was a bit surprised it was being sucked INTO the return, not around it. I'm assuming this means the leak is somewhere in the plumbing? That's of course under the concrete decking, about as far from the pump pad as possible...

So am I crazy? Does this look like a leak in the plumbing? Incidentally, this is the one return in the spa that is tied into the pool returns (the other 4 are on the spa only branch). So I can't even think of a way to isolate it to verify. Any thoughts?

For comparison, video of dye test on one of the other spa returns:

New video by M F

photos.app.goo.gl

 

[ajw22]

You will get more views of your video if you load it to YouTube, Mark it PUBLIC, and post links here. Many folks will not click on unknown links.

Were your valves in POOL mode or SPA mode when you did your dye test?

Was your pump ON or OFF during the dye test?

Your spa return could be leaking back down into your pool return line which would be the reason the dye was sucked into the spa return.

Post pics of your equipment pad so we can see your plumbing and valves.

 

[TexasDogs]

You will get more views of your video if you load it to YouTube, Mark it PUBLIC, and post links here. Many folks will not click on unknown links.

Were your valves in POOL mode or SPA mode when you did your dye test?

Was your pump ON or OFF during the dye test?

Your spa return could be leaking back down into your pool return line which would be the reason the dye was sucked into the spa return.

Post pics of your equipment pad so we can see your plumbing and valves.

Thanks for the tip. I'll try to post to YouTube tomorrow. I'll get pics of the pad in daylight.

Valves are in pool mode, though I don't have a truly isolated pool mode. The spa return in question is on the same branch as the pool returns.

Pump was off (and has been off for the majority of the water level dropping). I thought maybe dye was being sucked in because water was just moving through the return back to the pool, but they had been sitting for a while so I assume they had already reached equilibrium. Guess I could try to create an obvious imbalance between spa and pool to see if that changes the degree of suction on the dye.

 

[TexasDogs]

@Texas Splash I just came across your incredibly well written post about your leak journey: Leak Detection (Pressure Side), Results, and Frankenplug

If I do zero in on a similar situation, just wondering if you have any long term updates on the frankenplug situation... Has it withstood the test of time? From the post, it seemed to hold fast for a few months, how about now that it's been over a year?

 

[Texas Splash]

wondering if you have any long term updates on the frankenplug situation

I used it for about a year, and from all indications it held up fine. When I decided to cut through the decking last August to re-do my sagging plumbing lines and replace the return jets, I saw no evidence of leaking from the Frankenplug location. It served me well.

 

[Jimrahbe]

TD,

The dye test does not prove much as the spa is connected to the pool returns. And even when it looks like the water is not moving, it often is..

I would not personally work on a leak issue this time of year.. You need the ability to get in the water, so you can cap things off and do pressure testing, etc..

The best way to find a leak is to just let the pool drain down until the water stops dropping. I would not want to do this in the winter..

How much does the water level in the pool drop in one day?

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[TexasDogs]

TD,

The dye test does not prove much as the spa is connected to the pool returns. And even when it looks like the water is not moving, it often is..

I would not personally work on a leak issue this time of year.. You need the ability to get in the water, so you can cap things off and do pressure testing, etc..

The best way to find a leak is to just let the pool drain down until the water stops dropping. I would not want to do this in the winter..

How much does the water level in the pool drop in one day?

Thanks,

Jim R.

I haven't been good about taking actual measurements but will start that now. Subjectively, it does seem to be slowing as it gets lower and it's now just above the returns. When filled, it really seemed like it was in the neighborhood of an inch some days.

I am conflicted about what to do for the winter. Because of Texas climate I haven't closed the past 2 winters, but that means for the short cold snaps, I need to be able to run the pump through all the plumbing. I'd rather not waste the water constantly filling it up, but I'm afraid if I don't do that or fully close/winterize, I could end up in a bind for a cold snap.

 

[Jimrahbe]

I am conflicted about what to do for the winter. Because of Texas climate I haven't closed the past 2 winters, but that means for the short cold snaps, I need to be able to run the pump through all the plumbing. I'd rather not waste the water constantly filling it up, but I'm afraid if I don't do that or fully close/winterize, I could end up in a bind for a cold snap.

TD,

That was my thoughts also..

Jim R.

 

[DavidArmenB]

Been in the house 3 years and this is my first pool, plus I'm new to the Texas climate, so over the years I've been pretty stunned by evaporation and wondering if it truly was (yes, I know I should've done a bucket test). However within the past few months, it got WAY worse and I did confirm with bucket test. I've had a few tiles pop off and noticed grout is in poor shape in a few areas so I'm slowly working on that and I sort of chalked the leak up to that. However, after letting water level drop below tile line, bucket test has confirmed there's still a leak. Also all the way below skimmer, so it's not that. So today I finally did a dye test for spots I can get to from above (not willing to brave 50° water to check drains). First time doing dye test but I think I have a (rather unfortunate) smoking gun. One return in the spa appears to be sucking the dye into it. Here's a video:

New video by M F

photos.app.goo.gl

I was a bit surprised it was being sucked INTO the return, not around it. I'm assuming this means the leak is somewhere in the plumbing? That's of course under the concrete decking, about as far from the pump pad as possible...

So am I crazy? Does this look like a leak in the plumbing? Incidentally, this is the one return in the spa that is tied into the pool returns (the other 4 are on the spa only branch). So I can't even think of a way to isolate it to verify. Any thoughts?

For comparison, video of dye test on one of the other spa returns:

New video by M F

photos.app.goo.gl

That does not mean there is a leak there. Depending on how your plumbing is setup, how your valves are setup, and whether your pump is running or not, water can siphon back through the returns.

For example, in pool mode, I have three returns going to pool and one return going to spa, so spa always spills over even when suction and returns are in pool mode. If I turn off the pump, the water in the spa (which is a few inches higher as it was spilling over) will siphon through that one return and flow back into the pool and exit through the three pool returns, so the pool and spa water levels can equalize.

 

[TexasDogs]

That does not mean there is a leak there. Depending on how your plumbing is setup, how your valves are setup, and whether your pump is running or not, water can siphon back through the returns.

For example, in pool mode, I have three returns going to pool and one return going to spa, so spa always spills over even when suction and returns are in pool mode. If I turn off the pump, the water in the spa (which is a few inches higher as it was spilling over) will siphon through that one return and flow back into the pool and exit through the three pool returns, so the pool and spa water levels can equalize.

Yes, that's sort of what I was wondering was happening, but it had already had a long time (over 24 hrs) to equalize since I last ran the pump.