Inground pool resurfacing floor return questions

[jfindley]

Hi,

We have an inground 10k gallon pool with a spa.

It currently has A&A type 2 floor returns and the "flying saucer" brain to control the zones. There are 20 in floor heads and the zones are 2 or 3 heads each depending.

We have two estimates we are thinking of going with for resurfacing. The resurfacing and associated work is about the same for both estimates.

The difference is that one company wants to replace the current in floor heads with commercial returns and reprogram (?) the brain. I'm guessing this means removing the guts and just letting water flow to all the returns. But we will clarify that with the contractor.

The second company wants to abandon the in floor system and install wall returns. An additional $5k. This company also told us that we can't install commercial returns and abandon the brain because there won't be enough flow from the pump for all the returns. Poor circulation.

My question is: why can't we replace the pop up heads with commercial heads and continue to use the flying saucer brain? Seems like the simplest.

I can buy A&A replacement heads for about $40 so that $5k for wall returns would buy a lot of replacement heads. Not to mention save work on the yard, pavers, deck, etc.

My second question is: does anyone have a good alternative for the A&A pop up returns? I was thinking of getting something 3D printed that just had a grate on top. I really don't need/want all the parts and complication of the pop up head. And I'm tired or chasing down all the little pieces as they fall apart over time. Something that is one piece and simpler seems like a good solution. I currently have a handful with no pop up head in the pipe. The opening is just a little too big for safety so something needs to go there.

I should also not that our existing circulation is great. Way way better than other pools that I've owned. The in floor "cleaning" is meh but the current system moves water around just fine.

Thanks for any advice or suggestions.

JF

 

[mas985]

If it were my pool, I would abandon the heads. IFCs are very inefficient since they require high flow rates and high pressure which forces a VS pump to run at higher RPM and use a lot more energy. Most people that have them are not all that impressed with the performance and many have a secondary cleaner. Not sure of your exact location, but if your electrical rates are high like mine, then in the long run, it might be more economical to abandon the IFC.

 

[jonpcar]

@jfindley , a few comments. I am very happy with the performance of my IFCS and it costs me about $20/month at Arizona electricity rates, but I understand my system and have done some fine tuning of it.

If your current system has NO standard wall returns then it is definitely an example of an IFCS system that has been designed for mediocrity. Also FYI, even a single popup “missing” will make an IFCS perform poorly because dirt/debris will collect in that zone will not be “pushed around” and sucked into the filter. It sounds like you have multiple heads missing.

A pool system with no wall returns isn’t optimized to ”skim” effectively. Even with an IFCS, ”skim time” is extremely important. So, if your system currently has no wall returns, you are in between a rock and a hard place. No good option to make the IFCS effective…no good option besides spending the $5K for new wall returns. It sounds like you are happy with the current non-optimized circulation (and skimming performance?) for your pool, but personally I would be reluctant to resurface (spend the $$$s) and not address what the contractors are trying to address.

You might be able to keep only a couple of the IFCS zones as “returns” and use a 3D printed grate as you talked about to cover them and ensure circulation, in this case you would plug and plaster over the unused popups/zones. It seems that ALL zones could be left open and just covered with grates as you seem to be proposing. @mas985 might have a better idea of what would happen, but you would probably get decent water flow through all the various pipes if you just keep them all and covered them with grates. You could run the system at a higher RPM for 15 minutes a day to ensure that the water is properly circulated through them all. BUT I don’t think the skimming will be nearly as effective as with wall returns that can swirl the pool water to increase the skimming efficiency.

I don’t think there are any commercially available grates to replace your popup heads, you would have to create them yourself as you stated (with a 3D printer) or tool them using existing popup heads, epoxy, and a drill (haha). Good luck!

 

[jfindley]

@jonpcar

Thanks for the reply. Let me clarify a couple things:

1. I have lived with this pool for many years and it performs just fine. Circulation is great, skimming is great, and everything works well. The IFCS is okay but really doesn't get all the debris moved to the main drain. But I've never had a pool where a little vacuuming isn't needed. But there are no "dead" spots or places where debris gathers. In fact, when I add something like salt it's surprising how quickly it gets dispersed and disappears.

2. I am not proposing abandoning the zones and leaving it all open. Having the zones is what helps circulate the water and provides good skimming.

3. The commercial returns intrigued me since they are basically one piece. But if everyone thinks those won't provide enough circulation flow then I'd just keep the pop-up returns.

4. We have received now four different estimates and only one of those is proposing wall returns.

I just thought that since it's working as it is that $5k would buy a lot of new pop-up heads. If I couldn't find or make an alternative. And the $5k for wall returns does not include landscaping repair, paver repair, nor existing plumbing relocation/repair. That makes the $17k resurfacing project more like $20k. That's real money to me.

Thanks for the input. I welcome all advice and ideas.

JF

If it were my pool, I would abandon the heads. IFCs are very inefficient since they require high flow rates and high pressure which forces a VS pump to run at higher RPM and use a lot more energy. Most people that have them are not all that impressed with the performance and many have a secondary cleaner. Not sure of your exact location, but if your electrical rates are high like mine, then in the long run, it might be more economical to abandon the IFC.

@jfindley , a few comments. I am very happy with the performance of my IFCS and it costs me about $20/month at Arizona electricity rates, but I understand my system and have done some fine tuning of it.

If your current system has NO standard wall returns then it is definitely an example of an IFCS system that has been designed for mediocrity. Also FYI, even a single popup “missing” will make an IFCS perform poorly because dirt/debris will collect in that zone will not be “pushed around” and sucked into the filter. It sounds like you have multiple heads missing.

A pool system with no wall returns isn’t optimized to ”skim” effectively. Even with an IFCS, ”skim time” is extremely important. So, if your system currently has no wall returns, you are in between a rock and a hard place. No good option to make the IFCS effective…no good option besides spending the $5K for new wall returns. It sounds like you are happy with the current non-optimized circulation (and skimming performance?) for your pool, but personally I would be reluctant to resurface (spend the $$$s) and not address what the contractors are trying to address.

You might be able to keep only a couple of the IFCS zones as “returns” and use a 3D printed grate as you talked about to cover them and ensure circulation, in this case you would plug and plaster over the unused popups/zones. It seems that ALL zones could be left open and just covered with grates as you seem to be proposing. @mas985 might have a better idea of what would happen, but you would probably get decent water flow through all the various pipes if you just keep them all and covered them with grates. You could run the system at a higher RPM for 15 minutes a day to ensure that the water is properly circulated through them all. BUT I don’t think the skimming will be nearly as effective as with wall returns that can swirl the pool water to increase the skimming efficiency.

I don’t think there are any commercially available grates to replace your popup heads, you would have to create them yourself as you stated (with a 3D printer) or tool them using existing popup heads, epoxy, and a drill (haha). Good luck!

 

[mas985]

Is the reason both PBs are suggesting to abandon the IFC heads is because they cannot find the heads? Do you have a link to these commercial heads?

Circulation of chemicals is not likely to be an issue no matter what you do. A single return can be sufficient for most pools for just sanitation. It really does not take much to mix up the pool water. I have done dye tests with a single return at very low flow rates to prove this.

Circulation Dye Test

I have been wanting to do this test for some time but haven't gotten around to it until now. I ran three tests: 1) Dye in front of return at high speed 2) Dye in from of return at low speed 3) Dye in skimmer coming out of 4 returns at high speed The only issue was that the dye faded pretty...

www.troublefreepool.com

However, the surface action can affect skimming and this will depend on what they use for replacing the floor returns. But if there are currently no wall returns and skimming worked just fine, even while the main drain was active, then no matter what you do, I don't think you will make things any worse and it could potentially get better. Especially if you shut of the main drain and have all the flow going into the skimmer.

Also, if you have floor returns that exit straight up toward the surface, most of the flow will hit the surface and spread horizontally so this may actually help skimming rather than have the head pointed along the pool floor without any surface action. It could also keep some debris floating longer so the skimmer can catch it vs sinking to the pool floor.

 

[jfindley]

Is the reason both PBs are suggesting to abandon the IFC heads is because they cannot find the heads? Do you have a link to these commercial heads?

Circulation of chemicals is not likely to be an issue no matter what you do. A single return can be sufficient for most pools for just sanitation. It really does not take much to mix up the pool water. I have done dye tests with a single return at very low flow rates to prove this.

Circulation Dye Test

I have been wanting to do this test for some time but haven't gotten around to it until now. I ran three tests: 1) Dye in front of return at high speed 2) Dye in from of return at low speed 3) Dye in skimmer coming out of 4 returns at high speed The only issue was that the dye faded pretty...

www.troublefreepool.com

However, the surface action can affect skimming and this will depend on what they use for replacing the floor returns. But if there are currently no wall returns and skimming worked just fine, even while the main drain was active, then no matter what you do, I don't think you will make things any worse and it could potentially get better. Especially if you shut of the main drain and have all the flow going into the skimmer.

Also, if you have floor returns that exit straight up toward the surface, most of the flow will hit the surface and spread horizontally so this may actually help skimming rather than have the head pointed along the pool floor without any surface action. It could also keep some debris floating longer so the skimmer can catch it vs sinking to the pool floor.

@mas985

I believe they are suggesting an alternative to the IFC heads because they know they break and need replacement often. I have 20 of them in total so it adds up.

The commercial floors returns proposed are something like this:

Pebble Top Floor Return — Color Match Pool Fittings

Pebble Top Floor Return will disappear into your pool by applying the same plaster, aggregate, or tile to the top of the fitting for a perfect match.

www.poolfittings.com

And your last statement about the flow going straight up is spot on. It actually *helps* skimming. The floor cleaning has never worked well anyway. Better than a pool without it but I'd never install one of these systems. IFCS should stand for In Floor *Circulation* System. Cleaning is meh. Anyway, the flow going up is why I thought a grate device over each opening would work pretty well. Couple that with having zones and the welling up water would move around the pool. Which should really help skimming.

I should also note a couple additional details:

The pool is inside a cage so traditional leaf and debris skimming isn't an issue.

There is an attached spa and in "pool" mode it does have a wall return that in turn fills the spa and it flows over into the pool. So even more flow and circulation.

P.S. Your statement about running the VS pump at a higher speed doesn't really apply. For one, I just set it like most people do - no additional flow required. And, we are on solar in FL so even if I had to run it at a higher speed the cost would be nil.

Thanks,

JF

 

[JamesW]

I would just get some basic grates and let the water flow through all returns at the same time.

The flow will be fine.

Get some low profile grates and then get a robot to clean the pool.

 

[JamesW]

This is a venturi head, but the top looks like what I would recommend.

Just a blank grate so that water can flow through.

You can just remove all heads and let the water flow but you might get debris that falls into the holes and the holes might be a safety hazard.

 

[JamesW]

Contact the manufacturer to see if they have a retrofit head that is just a return.

They probably don't because they don't want people to abandon the in-floor cleaning system.

You might be able to make your own low profile grate inserts and then remove the parts from the distributor valve and allow all heads to get continuous flow.

 

[mas985]

@mas985

I believe they are suggesting an alternative to the IFC heads because they know they break and need replacement often. I have 20 of them in total so it adds up.

The commercial floors returns proposed are something like this:

Pebble Top Floor Return — Color Match Pool Fittings

Pebble Top Floor Return will disappear into your pool by applying the same plaster, aggregate, or tile to the top of the fitting for a perfect match.

www.poolfittings.com

I think those would work fine.

And your last statement about the flow going straight up is spot on. It actually *helps* skimming. The floor cleaning has never worked well anyway. Better than a pool without it but I'd never install one of these systems. IFCS should stand for In Floor *Circulation* System. Cleaning is meh.

This comment seems contradictory to your #1 above:

1. I have lived with this pool for many years and it performs just fine. Circulation is great, skimming is great, and everything works well. The IFCS is okay but really doesn't get all the debris moved to the main drain. But I've never had a pool where a little vacuuming isn't needed. But there are no "dead" spots or places where debris gathers. In fact, when I add something like salt it's surprising how quickly it gets dispersed and disappears.

But again, it doesn't take much for a pool to have good circulation. Often times people place the blame for algae on poor circulation but more often than not, it is because they maintain a FC/CYA ratio that is too low.

 

[JamesW]

The problem with a regular return fitting is getting it to retrofit into the existing body.

You might be able to 3d print some return adapters.

You can cut out the gunite around the fittings and cut off the existing fittings and glue in some different fittings, but that is a lot of time and effort.

 

[JamesW]

because there won't be enough flow from the pump for all the returns. Poor circulation.

That does not even make any sense.

There is no minimum flow required per return.

You can have 0.5 gpm per return and it would be fine.

Get a robot cleaner and that will also provide a lot of circulation.

Brush the pool weekly and that will provide circulation.

Run your VSP Pump on low 24/7 and that will provide good circulation.

 

[mas985]

James brings up a good point. If they need to bust out the gunite to use those commercial returns, I would do a hard pass on that. If they can find a retrofit solution, then that would be preferable.

 

[jfindley]

I would just get some basic grates and let the water flow through all returns at the same time.

The flow will be fine.

Get some low profile grates and then get a robot to clean the pool.


View attachment 539319

This picture is the A&A venturi unit correct?

Those are still pop-up so still overcomplicated for what I was hoping for. I'm still thinking that 3D printing something is the way to go.