Hard dig complication Arizona

[newdude]

Every little bit helps of course, but IMO it's not worth adding new possible issues to save $1400 at best, a mere rounding error in the grand scheme of your build. If your preferred guy hits any snags it'll only save you $400 and the risks involved no matter the his costs could end up costing more than the original issue you were looking to solve.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

So I got an alternative bid for my own excavation, an excavator another member of this forum used and with whom had a good experience . This other excavator did point out an area that looked like caliche but he said often he can just use water to soften that area and avoid using what he called “the ripper” to get through it. If that doesn’t work, I am only charged $1000 extra. Since my PB will only give me a $2500 credit if I hire my own excavator (they withhold 1150 of the original excavation charge for a $450 pull off to go the original excavator and 700 for 2 yards of overbreak), going this route with my own excavator will only save me $400 or $1400 depending on whether he needs to use that extra tool to get through the caliche.

When I asked the excavator i brought out about the overbreak piece, he said they don’t necessarily have 2 yards of overbreak. He didn’t think I would have that much. When I went back to Dolphin about this, they said that if there wasn’t overbreak or less than the 2 yards, they would credit me some of that overbreak charge they built into the cost but they warned me that

“the 3rd party excavator will need to adhere to digging the pool to our standards. Any/all dig corrections that may be needed will be the responsible of that same excavator in which Dolphin will not be financially responsible for.

Lastly, if the excavator over digs the pool in any capacity, you would be financially responsible for any additional shotcrete needed when the pool is shot.”

I felt good about the excavator I had come out, but am fearful that somehow my pool builder will to get that extra money out of me somewhere else.

How often do excavators over dig?

Any suggestions on what I should do would be appreciated .

I see no reason to not use your own excavator if you are more comfortable with them. Sure, $400 is a rounding error in pool build budgets but you can't put a price on peace of mind. As for the over-dig charges, you should call a meeting between yourself, the pool builder and this new excavator and go over the plans meticulously. The excavator should have all of the documentation and plans for the dig and the builder should be there to ensure that the dig is properly done.

Who is responsible for doing the layout of the pool in your yard? Usually the pool builder is the one that stakes out the dig outline of the pool and puts in forms for the bond beam as well as marking any special locations like where skimmer(s) go, light niches, sun-shelfs & ledges. Shelves and ledges need to be formed by manual digging so it's important to have those areas clearly marked and for dimensions to be checked during the progress of the dig.

 

[jtpipkin]

call me crazy, but you've already jilted the builder. I don't see any way possible this ends well. Good luck

 

[Furiousss]

I had $6500 in "rock charges". 2 neighbors across the street, one of whom used the same pool builder, had $0.

I watched their progress on my surveillance cameras. Big excavator, mostly ripping through rock with a hardened steel "talon" for 2.5 extra days. The first ~2' looked like garden soil, but that sure didn't last.

Oh well.

If you're convinced they're lying, ask them to prove it I guess. Awkward way to start a construction project together.

 

[Redsurprise]

call me crazy, but you've already jilted the builder. I don't see any way possible this ends well. Good luck

So you think that regardless of the route I go the pool builder is going to try to screw me over and charge me extra? I don’t see how I jilted the builder. I simply asked for more information/explanation as to why this was a hard dig due to the circumstances of the test dig itself and the PB was rude to me when I questioned it.

 

[newdude]

and the PB was rude to me when I questioned it.

Yes. How dare you question him. His knickers will now be in a bunch about it.

So you think that regardless of the route I go the pool builder is going to try to screw me over and charge me extra?

I don't see him charging you extra again but I do see you having slid to the bottom of his preferred customer list.

 

[mbdesa]

So I got an alternative bid for my own excavation, an excavator another member of this forum used and with whom had a good experience . This other excavator did point out an area that looked like caliche but he said often he can just use water to soften that area and avoid using what he called “the ripper” to get through it. If that doesn’t work, I am only charged $1000 extra. Since my PB will only give me a $2500 credit if I hire my own excavator (they withhold 1150 of the original excavation charge for a $450 pull off to go the original excavator and 700 for 2 yards of overbreak), going this route with my own excavator will only save me $400 or $1400 depending on whether he needs to use that extra tool to get through the caliche.

When I asked the excavator i brought out about the overbreak piece, he said they don’t necessarily have 2 yards of overbreak. He didn’t think I would have that much. When I went back to Dolphin about this, they said that if there wasn’t overbreak or less than the 2 yards, they would credit me some of that overbreak charge they built into the cost but they warned me that

“the 3rd party excavator will need to adhere to digging the pool to our standards. Any/all dig corrections that may be needed will be the responsible of that same excavator in which Dolphin will not be financially responsible for.

Lastly, if the excavator over digs the pool in any capacity, you would be financially responsible for any additional shotcrete needed when the pool is shot.”

I felt good about the excavator I had come out, but am fearful that somehow my pool builder will to get that extra money out of me somewhere else.

How often do excavators over dig?

Any suggestions on what I should do would be appreciated .

I checked out your original photos and that looks like normal soil to me. I don't even see any Caliche. However, it is not uncommon (and especially in some parts of Surprise) for the Excavator to dig down and then run into Caliche. Caliche definitely slows down the digging process, and as such costs more. From experience, I can tell you in the NW Valley it is not uncommon for backyards in the same neighborhoods to have completely different soil types. With that said, if you run into Caliche, you are likely to have overbreak. The Caliche chips off and the Excavator can not cut clean straight lines for the walls of the pool, necessitating the need for additional Shotcrete.

Putting all that aside, personally, I am going to take an educated guess and say that your access combined with some Caliche they saw is leading to the increase in cost. Moving soil with a 36" Skid Loader is slow and time consuming and the Excavator wasn't thrilled about it.

If you can save money going with your Excavator, and you are confident with him, I would personally go that route and make sure you are home when they do it in case there is any issues. Good luck!

 

[Redsurprise]

I had $6500 in "rock charges". 2 neighbors across the street, one of whom used the same pool builder, had $0.

I watched their progress on my surveillance cameras. Big excavator, mostly ripping through rock with a hardened steel "talon" for 2.5 extra days. The first ~2' looked like garden soil, but that sure didn't last.

Oh well.

If you're convinced they're lying, ask them to prove it I guess. Awkward way to start a construction project together.

I am not 100% convinced they are lying but felt this could have been handled a lot better and the communication that has happened just makes me not feeling great about this. This is the most expensive purchase I have ever made besides my house so I am incredibly nervous about this .

The pool builder goes off of what the subcontractor excavator says and they are the ones I don’t necessarily believe as they are the one to benefit from this extra money spent, not the PB itself.

My third party excavator who came out said if it was him he would have tried to use water first as he has had success with it softening the patches of clay allowing his “bucket” to get through it . And they will try the water route first. My PB and the subs they use don’t give any option of trying that. The other two bids didn’t even come out and assess the situation/soil/hole, so not sure how they based their bids.

If using water is a thing for harder soil, why not try that first? Has anyone heard of water softening hard soil? There aren’t big boulders in my soil and seem to have patches of caliche. You could see normal soil under a patch of caliche in one area (my landscaper and the other excavator pointed it out).

I am sure a lot of people on here are more flush with cash than me, but saving 1400 (or 2300 maybe if not a hard dig and little to no overbreak) is significant to me. I just don’t want to end up somehow spending more which is my fear since I am already at edge of my budget.

My 3rd party excavator suggested I have the pool layout redone if it has worn out as they aren’t responsible for that. It has partially disappeared due to a dust and rain storm we had before then test hole. You can still see a lot of the lines, but they aren’t as dark and in some areas and l you can’t see the hole line all the way across. I asked the PB if this would be a problem for either excavator and they said as long as the pins are there that (that are staked periodically into the dirt along the outline) that it should be enough. I didn’t get the impression they would be redoing the layout markings which also has me nervous as they make me pay for overdig with their excavators too.

 

[Ajax_fuel_linker]

As JoyfulNoise mentioned. You should call a meeting with all parties. Preferably at the site.

You're looking for peace of mind and this is the best way to get it. Also, you'll have an opportunity to reset the relationship with the builder. It's understandable you're nervous and this could possible help put your mind at ease. Also, people tend to be less strident in person vs over the phone.

Of course, you could also blast that hard area with water prior to them being there and show them that it could be softened.

Hope it works our for you.

 

[AZRider]

We decided to go the OB route. Your home appears to be in the same area of Surprise as our home. We may face the same issue. Looking at the test hole they dug it appears that possibly they are calling it a hard dig since they will have to use a Excavator with a smaller bucket requiring more time? When they build subdivisions there are areas that are either cut or filled in the process.. If you are on a cut it will be harder to dig then a fill.. Yours and ours judging by the test hole appear to be on cuts. My neighbor 4 houses down just had a pool built. I was looking at the striations in the soil after the dig was finished and his was on a fill.. The point is the PB sales people should not of promised a easy dig just because they had easy digs in the same neighborhood.

 

[poolmagazine]

Let me give you some good news, I don't think there is any way a hard dig is going to cost anywhere close $8k in Arizona unless they have to use a mini ex in your yard. There are some companies that will even rent rock hammer equipment out for 3 or 4 hours instead of the day which can cut down on costs. It all depends on the connections your PB has. I'll double down on what some other members said "how do you know you have rock and not just 'a rock'. In cases like that, you can ask about using GPR (ground penetrating radar) to detect how bad the rock situation is. GPR service will typically run you anywhere from $100 - $300 an hour, but at least then you'll know what the deal is.

 

[Schwimmbad]

Hey @Redsurprise I'm curious to hear how things went (or progressing).

 

[Redsurprise]

With some of the stipulations the PB gave and the third party excavator I wanted to use wanting the outline Re-drawn/chalked (it had faded a lot and pool builder said no and said nails around outline were sufficient), I more or less had to go with the $2500 bid. Today is dig day and excavation looks more than half way done and no ripper tool has been used. Only the mini excavator and some shovels for the steps and Baja shelf. I am not really understanding how this is a “hard dig” if you don’t need a special Jack hammer tool or ripper to accomplish it. See photo and videos for the only equipment they have used (with aide of my hose).

Here are some short videos.

Will add links to longer time-lapse video.

 

[Redsurprise]

Some more videos in time lapse.

The PB construction Forman came by not long ago to supervise the excavator sub briefly and I inquired why this is considered a hard dig based on the relative ease of the excavator bucket going through the soil (at least in my lay person observation today), and he said they were maybe using a “special bucket”. He couldn’t give me any details as to what sort of bucket it was or what about the forks on it made it $2500 more special than a standard bucket.

It doesn’t look like a special bucket to me , but then again I am not an excavator and am not familiar with equipment like this so maybe it is a pricier bucket.

Anyone with more experience know about excavator buckets?

 

[newdude]

It doesn’t look like a special bucket to me , but then again I am not an excavator and am not familiar with equipment like this so maybe it is a pricier bucket.

36 inch cat buckets range from $1400 to $2760 new. If it's a 24 they may be as cheap as $600. That one clearly has miles on it similar to the machine. I'd demand to keep it if I paid for it. That excuse is hogwash.

Is this the same machine ? Maybe they had to rent it.

 

[kul]

I'd demand to keep it if I paid for it. That excuse is hogwash.

Yes. since it’s paid for, it can be transitioned into a water feature. That’s your bucket now!

 

[newdude]

Or sold on Offerup / FB marketplace.

 

[Redsurprise]

36 inch cat buckets range from $1400 to $2760 new. If it's a 24 they may be as cheap as $600. That one clearly has miles on it similar to the machine. I'd demand to keep it if I paid for it. That excuse is hogwash.

Is this the same machine ? Maybe they had to rent it.

I wasn’t there for the test dig as they gave me no notice when they were doing it.

The other excavator I almost used said the cost would increase if a ripper tool had to be used . He didn’t talk about different buckets. He said overbreak happens when ripper is used and holes are in walls because of those ripper tools. No ripper tool was used today.

I spoke with someone higher up in PB company asking for an explanation as to why this was a hard dig considering the apparent ease of the dog today. He said they would refund money if not a lot of extra shotcrete is needed and not a lot of overbreak. He said he would talk to the excavator as well to see if it was less difficult than anticipated and see about getting a discount. I am not hopeful I will get a satisfactory response but we’ll see.

I am just feeling super ripped off right now and regret not using my third party excavator since it doesn’t seem like this is really a hard dig. There is some caliche but the bucket being used on this excavator is going through it just fine.

 

[newdude]

The other excavator I almost used said the cost would increase if a ripper tool had to be used

That's a talon looking single tooth that breaks it up with a couple passes. Then they swap to the bucket to dig that layer, then swap back. It's time consuming because they're basically digging it twice, although any given bucket swap is relatively quick. Plus any damage done as it's kinda barbaric when they pull out a chunk thats much larger than the hole was supposed to be.

He said they would refund money if not a lot of extra shotcrete is needed and not a lot of overbreak

Here's to hoping that there isn't a slab down there at the last couple inches and that the company does the right thing.

 

[Schwimmbad]

Your dig doesn’t look any different than mine win the exception of a guy spraying water occasionally. I wonder if that really was doing anything. Anyway if you haven’t shared your videos with your PB you should and ask that they not pay their excavator. If your excavator cost more then their original excavator bid you should ask the PB to credit you the difference, or may you can split the difference.