First Hot Tub and I'm very, very confused!

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karlahurley

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Dec 4, 2017
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Godfrey, IL
Hello, and thank you for this forum.

I got my first hot tub 2 weeks ago tomorrow. I was given a starter set of chemicals, some test strips, a silver ion stick, and a brief tutorial.

I was told to focus on pH first, then chlorine. I found I had to constantly add pH Decreaser, and it seemed to never go down, but after a week I got it squared away. TA was good once I got pH good, but then they started to drift apart. I was getting close to needing to increase TA.

My chlorine levels were always low, and I added more every day.

After 10 days I found the CYA levels had climbed drastically and were at 150ppm. I picked up another set of test strips to see if they measured the same, and they did. At this point I started researching and found that some folks recommend a drain and refill when CYA gets that high. That's what I did today, and I'd like some advice on how to proceed.

The temp is at 78 now, and I haven't added any chemicals at all. When should I do that, and what should I add?

I have a drop test kit coming tomorrow. In the meantime, my test strips show this:

FC - 0
pH - 8.4
TA - 120
CYA - 40
TH - 200


I would greatly appreciate some help!!
 
Hi! I'm new here to. I've been waiting on an answer to my questions, I'm thinking this place might be more dead in the winter? Anyway, I'm definitely no expert, but I can point you in the right direction. To start, I would invest in a good drop test kit. I use a Taylor kit. I can't tell you how many times using test strips probably messed me up. Maybe use them occasionally when you are in a hurry, but if you have any kind of a problem or are doing a start up, you will be glad you have something more precise. If you get one, compare the results to your test strips sometimes and I bet you will see what I mean. Also, go buy muriatic acid...you can usually find at a hardware or home improvement store. You will also need some more diclor (I'm guessing you already have it) plain chlorine bleach, baking soda, and borax.

I think that your water will NOT have CYA already in it. I wouldn't stake my life on it or anything. You need to add CYA by adding diclor...but I'm guessing what got you in trouble is that all that chlorine you were adding was diclor and you didn't switch to bleach/chlorine after you got enough CYA. I made the same mistake. This is something my dealer NEVER told me. They sold me container of diclor after container. Frustrating. Now that Ive read and reread the information on here, I'm so angry realizing all the bad advice I got...instead of fixing my problem, they were always selling me another product I didn't need. One thing I don't understand though, is how you already have 40 CYA? How much diclor have you already added? or did you already use some kind of stabilizer?

Definitely read ABCs of water chemistry in https://www.troublefreepool.com/content/ and then the sticky "How do I use chlorine in my spa" https://www.troublefreepool.com/threads/9670-How-do-I-use-Chlorine-in-my-Spa-(or-pool) Both are super helpful. A couple parts you will find particularly helpful are copied below. And use the Pool Math calculator! So helpful!!! https://www.troublefreepool.com/calc.html

Total Alkalinity: Alkalinity is a pH Buffer. High levels of TA will not allow pH to change from additions of acid or base. However, a high TA requires a low pH to have balanced water. On the other hand, very low levels of TA will allow the pH to change with very little acid. A very low TA level could cause your pH to drop to low levels, very fast with little acid. Also, the lower your TA, the higher your pH needs to be to have balanced water. So, as you can see, a very low TA can become very unstable.

However, pH will have a tendency to rise with aeration (i.e. use of jets and air), more so if your TA is high. Although, as long as you're not adding Acid (or anything with a lower pH) to your tub, the pH will not usually drop. Therefore, in hot tubs the problem is normally pH rise (or Drift), because of all the aeration. So, the trick is to get the TA high enough to not create an unstable situation, and low enough to not allow pH to rise too much.

Let me repeat the last sentence, because it's the single most important thing to keeping your water balanced. The key to having balanced water, without pH drift, is having the correct TA level. If you find your pH rises too high (>8.0) after using your tub, your TA is too high, and needs to be lowered. If you find your pH is too low and/or your water is continually acidic, your TA is too low and needs to be raised. By fine tuning your TA, you can get your pH perfectly balanced, that rarely needs adjustment.

SO, what's a good TA then? Because spas tend to have a lot of aeration from jets and because the water is hot, it is best to keep the TA low at around 50 ppm.

OK, how do we adjust TA then? If TA is too low, you just add Baking Soda to raise it. However, if TA is high, it's little more involved. You'll need Acid (Dry or Muriatic). Depending on how high your TA is will depend on how long it will take you. Plan on it taking around an hour to decrease TA by 100 ppm. So if your TA is 300 ppm, plan it taking around 2-3 hours. First, uncover your tub and turn on all your jets, air, blowers, waterfalls etc. Test your pH. When it's greater than 7.8, add enough acid to bring it down to 7.0. Keep aerating until your pH is 7.8 again (about 30 min), then add more acid and repeat. Every time you add acid you're lowering your pH and TA. When you get your TA tuned perfectly, your pH will rise to a level (i.e. ~7.6) and stop, then you know you're at your ideal TA level. If your pH is rising too high (>8.0), bring your TA down a little more. If your pH doesn't rise enough from aeration (after an hour or more), you over shot it and need to add a little Baking Soda to raise your TA. After a few days/weeks of monitoring it, you'll get your TA tuned perfectly. You may need to add a little Dry Acid once a week or two, but your water should be well balanced at that point.

I wouldn't go much below 50 ppm TA, because that could become unstable if you add any kind of acid. Also, if you have a high TA, above 100, you may need to add more acid in the beginning to get your pH down. Remember, TA is a pH buffer, so the higher the TA, the more acid you need to bring the pH down. It takes approximately 8 oz total of Dry Acid to bring TA down 100 ppm in a 350 Gal tub. However, the key is not to add too much acid all at once to bring your pH down under 7.0. That's why you should aerate in between adding acid.



Cyanuric acid, often called stabilizer or conditioner, both protects FC from sunlight and lowers the effective strength of the FC (by holding some of the FC in reserve). The higher your CYA level, the more FC you need to use to get the same effect. It is important to know your CYA level so you can figure out what FC level to aim for. If you don't have a SWG, CYA is typically kept between 30 and 50ppm. If you have a SWG, CYA is typically kept between 70 and 80ppm.

You increase CYA by adding cyanuric acid, often sold as stabilizer or conditioner. CYA is available as a solid and as a liquid. The liquid costs a lot more, and generally isn't worth the extra expense. Solid stabilizer is best added by placing it in a sock in the skimmer basket. The pump should be run for 24 hours after adding solid stabilizer and you should avoid backwashing/cleaning the filter for a week. Test and dose chemicals in your pool assuming the amount of CYA added is in the pool according to Poolmath. CYA can be tested the day after it is fully dissolved from the sock.

In nearly all cases the best way to lower CYA is to replace water. If replacement water is extremely expensive you might want to look into a reverse osmosis water treatment.


another section in the sticky:
The first thing we are going to use to sanitize our tub is Dichlor. Dichlor is actually two things, Chlorine and Cyanuric Acid (CYA). CYA is a chlorine stabilizer, which slows down dissipation from UV rays (sunlight). It also acts as a buffer to hold chlorine in reserve. Having CYA in your tub will stop the chlorine from dissipating as fast while waiting for something to do and buffers the harshness associated with chlorine. However, CYA also cuts down on the ability for the chlorine to sanitize. So in other words, the higher the CYA level, the longer the FC will wait in the tub, but the less effective the FC is. With no CYA in the tub, using bleach would be too strong and not practical to use. So, there needs to be a happy medium. Luckily, Chem Geek has come up with one for us. He suggests a CYA of ~20 ppm. Personally I use a CYA of 30 ppm for reasons I won't get into here. But I think Chem Geek would agree anywhere between 20-50 is fine. Where the problem comes in is when CYA gets too high (above 100) after weeks of using Dichlor. Then your FC needs to be really high to get the same sanitation effectiveness. That's why we switch to bleach after we get our CYA to 20-30. Bleach doesn't add anymore CYA.

So, I'm going to assume our target CYA is 30, but feel free to use 20 and adjust as necessary. I find that it's easier to keep track of how much Dichlor you're adding to the tub and calculate the CYA, rather than testing CYA with the drop test kit until you get a 30 ppm reading. For every 10 ppm of Dichlor you add to your tub, you add 9 ppm CYA.So roughly 34 ppm Dichlor will give you 30 CYA. On a fresh fill, and after your water is balanced by the above method, shock your tub with Dichlor to 10 ppm FC. Then over the course of the next several days, depending on bather load, add 24 ppm more FC using Dichlor. You want to keep your FC normally between 3-6 ppm every day. This means you will be testing your FC EVERY DAY.
 
Thanks for your replay Rach G75!

I have two different types of test strips, and they both say that I have CYA in the water without adding any chemicals. Weird.

I did add some bleach, following the write up by Nitro. I didn't want to leave the tub without anything to kill bacteria. I did not add any dichlor, since it appears I have CYA already. I hope I didn't screw something up.

I have a taylor kit coming tomorrow in the mail, and I hope that will help to connect the dots.

I added some muriatic acid tonight as well, and I can see the PH drop a little. I am anxious to see what the drip kit will show.
 
You didn't screw anything up...I'm glad I didn't stake my life on it. Lol. We will figure this out together! You are lucky...sounds like you are starting off on the right foot. I'm trying to undo the damage already done. :(
 
Did I see in a post where you are cleaning out some slime? That has to be frustrating this close to winter temps.

I called the spa dealer over the weekend and they told me to not worry about the CYA, that it only matters in pools. I wonder if they just don't know any better?
 
Welcome to TFP and congrats on the new hot tub!

They do not know any better, CYA is important in hot tubs and pools. CYA is not present in tap water. A good test kit is essential, test strips are useless. Lowering your TA to 50 and adding 50 ppm of borates will solve your pH rise problem. More here about test kits, Pool School - Test Kits Compared

Everything you need to manage your hot tub is located here, How do I use Chlorine in my Spa (or pool)?. I've been using this method to maintain my hot tub for about 5 years now and it works great.
 
pooldv said:
Welcome to TFP and congrats on the new hot tub!

They do not know any better, CYA is important in hot tubs and pools. CYA is not present in tap water. A good test kit is essential, test strips are useless. Lowering your TA to 50 and adding 50 ppm of borates will solve your pH rise problem. More here about test kits, Pool School - Test Kits Compared

Everything you need to manage your hot tub is located here, How do I use Chlorine in my Spa (or pool)?. I've been using this method to maintain my hot tub for about 5 years now and it works great.
Click to expand...


Thanks Pooldv!

I am anxious to get my test kit in the mail, but now it doesn't look like it's coming until Wednesday, so I have to make due in the meantime.

I drained my spa with a pump, so do you think there was enough water left in the lines to cause the CYA to be present after a refill?
Or do you think my test strips are both giving false readings?
And let's say I have no CYA in there, yet I have added bleach instead of dichlor, what then??

This is so frustrating. But I am so glad to have found this site. I have checked my water multiple times a day for the two weeks I have had the spa. I just didn't have the correct information to follow. And I have known that the whole time, which is frustrating. Any help is appreciated!

OH, and I have reviewed the guides you provided links to, and will continue to do so.

Thanks again :)
 
If you never added dichlor or stabilizer to your tub then there isn't any in there. Without CYA in the tub the chlorine will be very harsh and hard on skin and swimsuits. Always follow the [FC/CYA][/FC/CYA] to dose the right amount of chlorine based on the CYA level.
 

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Make sure you use Pool Math to do all of your chemical calculations (it works for hot tubs too) so you get the correct dosing.

Believe it or not, new hot tubs can be dirtier than old ones because of the way they are constructed. Even if your hot tub was never used as a floor model, the manufacturer pressure tests the plumbing by filling it with water and running checks on the tub. That means when the tub is delivered there is plenty of water left in the lines and dampness all throughout the plumbing system not to mention oils, greases and sealants used in the making of the tub. So, TFP ALWAYS recommends that new tubs be flushed with a biofilm cleaner like Ahh-Some in order to flush the lines. Most folks use Ahh-some because it is the best product on the market for purging hot-tub plumbing. Since you've already refilled the tub I'm sure you don't want to dump it again and so I would suggest that you get some Ahh-some on order and then use it next time you plan to dump the tub. Purging the plumbing once per year is a good idea for keeping everything in the tub squeaky-clean. Biofilms are an inherent problem with any kind of jetted hot tub as warm water, high levels of bather waste and occasional low sanitizer levels can easily allow for a soup of bacteria and slime to develop inside the plumbing.

Once you get your kit, post up your test results and more advice can be given. Test strips are simply worthless and can not be used for giving advice. 1 teaspoon of dichlor granules will add roughly 2ppm FC to your tub and raise your CYA by 2ppm. So you can easily chlorinate with dichlor for now while you wait for your kit to arrive. 1.1 fluid ounces of 8.25% laundry bleach (no scents or "splashless" bleach or anything by Clorox called CloroMax) will do the same thing but you'll get no CYA with that. Since you want to build up some CYA, using dichlor is probably the better choice as it is slightly acidic too and will help keep the pH under control until you can deal with the TA.
 
JoyfulNoise said:
Make sure you use Pool Math to do all of your chemical calculations (it works for hot tubs too) so you get the correct dosing.

Believe it or not, new hot tubs can be dirtier than old ones because of the way they are constructed. Even if your hot tub was never used as a floor model, the manufacturer pressure tests the plumbing by filling it with water and running checks on the tub. That means when the tub is delivered there is plenty of water left in the lines and dampness all throughout the plumbing system not to mention oils, greases and sealants used in the making of the tub. So, TFP ALWAYS recommends that new tubs be flushed with a biofilm cleaner like Ahh-Some in order to flush the lines. Most folks use Ahh-some because it is the best product on the market for purging hot-tub plumbing. Since you've already refilled the tub I'm sure you don't want to dump it again and so I would suggest that you get some Ahh-some on order and then use it next time you plan to dump the tub. Purging the plumbing once per year is a good idea for keeping everything in the tub squeaky-clean. Biofilms are an inherent problem with any kind of jetted hot tub as warm water, high levels of bather waste and occasional low sanitizer levels can easily allow for a soup of bacteria and slime to develop inside the plumbing.

Once you get your kit, post up your test results and more advice can be given. Test strips are simply worthless and can not be used for giving advice. 1 teaspoon of dichlor granules will add roughly 2ppm FC to your tub and raise your CYA by 2ppm. So you can easily chlorinate with dichlor for now while you wait for your kit to arrive. 1.1 fluid ounces of 8.25% laundry bleach (no scents or "splashless" bleach or anything by Clorox called CloroMax) will do the same thing but you'll get no CYA with that. Since you want to build up some CYA, using dichlor is probably the better choice as it is slightly acidic too and will help keep the pH under control until you can deal with the TA.
Click to expand...


Thank you so much for your help. I was worried that the CYA was already where it is supposed to be, so I didn't want to risk raising it more. I will take your advice and add some dichlor. I have been using Pool Math, and am so happy to have it as a tool. From what you and Pooldv say, my current problem is not having a good test kit. Once I get that, I should be able to get moving in the right direction.

Thanks again!
 
karlahurley said:
Sorry, I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but you are effectively saying that both test strips must be reading CYA incorrectly?
Click to expand...

Test strips, especially for CYA, are highly inaccurate. You've already discovered how bad they are because they are telling you that there is CYA in your fresh fill water when there is absolutely no CYA in fill water. You'll also notice how widely spaced the graduation values are - 0, 30-50, 100, 200, 300. That is not at all useful and it's a result of how the CYA is being measured (as a change in pH in the test pad to cause a color change).

The Taylor test kit uses a disappearing dot turbidity test which can be a little tricky at first to get the hand of but, once you've practiced it a little, you can easily get 10ppm resolution from 30ppm to 100ppm. So you can get a much more accurate determination of CYA levels with that.

- - - Updated - - -

karlahurley said:
Thank you so much for your help. I was worried that the CYA was already where it is supposed to be, so I didn't want to risk raising it more. I will take your advice and add some dichlor. I have been using Pool Math, and am so happy to have it as a tool. From what you and Pooldv say, my current problem is not having a good test kit. Once I get that, I should be able to get moving in the right direction.

Thanks again!
Click to expand...

You can use bleach or dichlor, whichever is easiest. Best not to use the tub until you can get the kit and see where your actual chemical levels are at. No need to rush things, you'll be happily soaking in the tub soon enough.
 
So until I get the test kit, I can rest easy with the bleach I have added?

I also added some MA last night. All I could find locally was the green stuff, I figured it was better than nothing.

I have also purchased some Borax, but I haven't added any of that yet. I read where I should get the PH/TA numbers ironed out first.

Will I need any of the chemicals they gave me when they installed the spa? Well, other than some dichlor?

Should I remove the silver ion cartridge they gave me?
 
Yes, remove the silver cartridge, it’s useless too and silver ions should not be used in a chlorine tub.

The “green” MA is just a lower strength formulation of MA, 15% instead of 31.45%. It’s probably better as the lower strength stuff doesn’t give off fumes which most people don’t like. After you get your pH and TA settled down, you won’t be using a lot of acid. Borax is fine but it does cause pH to increase so when you do add borates you’ll need acid to counteract the pH increase. Don’t worry about it now, adding borates can be done later.

Your tub will consume FC every day so, even with the strips, you’ll need to do a quick measurement to make sure you’re not at zero. Keep the FC up around 2-4ppm until your kit arrives and you’ll be fine.
 
JoyfulNoise said:
Yes, remove the silver cartridge, it’s useless too and silver ions should not be used in a chlorine tub.

The “green” MA is just a lower strength formulation of MA, 15% instead of 31.45%. It’s probably better as the lower strength stuff doesn’t give off fumes which most people don’t like. After you get your pH and TA settled down, you won’t be using a lot of acid. Borax is fine but it does cause pH to increase so when you do add borates you’ll need acid to counteract the pH increase. Don’t worry about it now, adding borates can be done later.

Your tub will consume FC every day so, even with the strips, you’ll need to do a quick measurement to make sure you’re not at zero. Keep the FC up around 2-4ppm until your kit arrives and you’ll be fine.
Click to expand...

You're the best....thank you so much for your help :)
 
I finally got my drip test kit and here are my numbers:

CH - 160ppm
TA - 125ppm
PH - 8.0 (probably higher?)
CYA - 0
FC - 2.4ppm
CC - .4ppm

I plan to start following Nitro's advice on lowering TA while aerating.

I am confused on how to interpret Pool Math for what to add in dichlor.

Any thoughts or advice?

Thanks in advance!
 
What FC are you trying to reach?

Dichlor is a powder and best measured by weight. However, if you don’t have a scale to measure weight with, you can use the volume amount but it’s approximate.
 
With CCs measuring at 0.4ppm, you might want to shock up to 10ppm FC in an effort to break them down. Just make sure you lower the pH first to 7.2-7.4 and then run the jets for a bit after adding the dichlor. You want to leave the cover slightky open too while aerating so that CCs can outgas from the tub.

Every 10ppm FC added using dichlor will raise the CYA by 9ppm. So you do want to keep an eye on your CYA while using dichlor to chlorinate.
 

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