Fas-DPD test for Free Chlorine not fully repeatable

Jun 21, 2022
23
Abilene, Texas
Pool Size
20000
Surface
Vinyl
Chlorine
Liquid Chlorine
Hi,
Broad context: I've recently switched to using liquid bleach from the Frog Pool Tender system. The Pool Tender is still installed, but I haven't had chlorine cartridges or tablets (via skimmer or modified Pool Tender cartridge) in the system for several day now (not quite a week, I think). The pool tender DOES still have the 'mineral pack' in place. I don't know exactly what it's adding to my water, and I guess for that reason I should probably remove it. I doubt any of this contributes to my question, but, I mention it just in case someone knows that it does.

Immediate context: As above, I've recently started using liquid bleach (10% is what I've found locally, for ~$6/gallon), and I'm trying to dial in my routine, and get a sense for how much I need to add daily. I have the TF-Pro test kit, and typically measure my FC and pH every morning. Because I have a hard time with the little OTO/pH test block (matching colors), I use the FAS-DPD test for FC, and an Apera PH60 to measure pH. I recently read here that it's better to add bleach in the evening than the morning if you're adding it manually, because the FC has all night to kill little buggies (at a higher ppm) before the sun starts to beat up the FC (lowering the ppm). This makes sense to me, so I decided to try it.

I'm trying to hit a target FC level of 7ppm when I add bleach.

Last night, I went to check the FC (being the first time I did it in the evening), and I don't know if it's because I was working in the dark, and couldn't really see what I was doing, but I was getting FC levels all over the place. My first reading was 3ppm, which was lower than I expected. I figured I'd see about 4.5 ppm. So I checked again, ... and again... and again. I did at least 4 checks (sorry, didn't record them), and saw a low of 3, and a high of 7. While getting these results I experimented with just how 'heaping' my scoop of R-871 was, as I'd read the detailed instructions indicating that too much ("within reason, " whatever that means) is fine, but too little is bad.

I cleaned everything up and went inside without adding any bleach.

This morning, I did it again, and got 3.5, 4, 4, and decided to go with the 4, and added the indicated 2qt 1cp (72oz) of bleach.

My question is, have others seen such wild fluctuations in their FAS-DPD testing results? Any ideas what would cause that? Bad reagent, maybe? (My kit is fairly new - I think I bought it in June).

Up until now, I've never bother repeating the tests like that - just do it one and trust it.

Thanks
 
have others seen such wild fluctuations in their FAS-DPD testing results? Any ideas what would cause that?
No, not normal. I would suspect perhaps some testing errors are from being new to all of this and working in the dark might have influenced your situation. I'm not a fan of indoor testing as I find the incandescent lights not very good for my viewing. Outdoor lighting while in the shade (except for the CYA) seems to work well. I test my FC in the later afternoon/early evening always grabbing the water sample from the same location of the pool and while the pump has been mixing water. Then I do the FC test as follows:

- 10 ml water sample with one generous scoop of power. The size is not critical, just generous or slightly heaping scoop should be fine. Then I mix while adding the R-0871 drops until clear and divide the result in half. Example: 14 drops equals an FC of 7.

Hope that helps.
 
I posted about the same issue yesterday and the response was that I am over thinking it. LOL. I am going thru a SLAM but the inconsistent test results makes it hard to determine if I'm done or not...one location no chlorine loss overnight...another location, lost 2.5 so I don't really have an answer but going forward I will be keeping my FC high enough that I'm not flirting with minimum anywhere in the pool.
 
Get a speed stir. My brother, who owned a pool for 30 years, came to visit. We did head to head FC test, me with smart stir and he with hand swirl. His results were 1ppm higher. The speed stir makes the chemical reaction consistent. I wouldn't live without mine.
 
TFTestkits has SpeedStir units on sale -- they are discounted because the light on them is blue. So if you can do your testing in the daytime, and do not need the light, you can get a SpeedStir for a very low price. Check them out.
 
The other issue may be drop size. You want to squeeze VEEEERY lightly, allow the drop to form and drop on its own. If you squeeze drops out quickly, they will be smaller and make your results higher.
 
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Thanks for the replies, folks.

I forgot to mention that my kit includes the Speed Stir, and I was using it (this is the only way I could consider doing it in the dark).

@Texas Splash , my technique is as you described. I'm sure if we did it side by side, we'd note some subtle differences, but broadly the same.

I had a further think about it, and I realized that if the amount of R871 is not super critical, then the amount of water must be... If I go over or under, that could affect the concentration of the drops of R870 in the water, hence how the number or drops relates to PPM.

Therefore, I suspect my issue stemmed from:
  • Probably didn't get the 10ml of water perfectly. Doing it in the dark, relying on the speedstir's light, looking at it while it sat on the table (vs handheld at eye level as I normally do when filling the vial), I probably underfilled or overfilled slightly. I may have even hit 5 or 15 ml once, instead of 10ml (in retrospect).
  • After getting a suspicious result, I did it again, quickly. (and again and again) Probably dispensing drops fast enough they could have been smaller than normal.
My takeaway is to do it when the sun is still up! I like doing it outside with the natural light, and I can just pour the test samples into my fire ring (unlit, unused), vs pouring then down the drain, and into my septic tank where they'll have who-knows-what-effect on my septic bacteria.

Thanks again for all the help.
 
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Therefore, I suspect my issue stemmed from:
  • Probably didn't get the 10ml of water perfectly.
I find this Taylor SampleSizer to be very repeatable for getting both 10ml and 25ml samples quickly. Highly recommended - especially if you have OCD tendencies :)
 

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I don't know exactly what it's adding to my water, and I guess for that reason I should probably remove it
It is adding metals to your water - not cool
I recently read here that it's better to add bleach in the evening than the morning
Not sure where u read that exactly but its best to add liquid chlorine at whatever time ensures you don’t fall below minimum for your cya level. FC/CYA Levels Whenever that is for u.
Keeping fc above minimum for your cya prevents nasties from growing not the time of day in which u add chlorine. The cooties are killed quite quickly with adequate fc levels regardless of the the time of day.
Here’s some calculations on the subject
 
Last night, I went to check the FC (being the first time I did it in the evening), and I don't know if it's because I was working in the dark, and couldn't really see what I was doing, but I was getting FC levels all over the place. My first reading was 3ppm, which was lower than I expected. I figured I'd see about 4.5 ppm. So I checked again, ... and again... and again. I did at least 4 checks (sorry, didn't record them), and saw a low of 3, and a high of 7. While getting these results I experimented with just how 'heaping' my scoop of R-871 was, as I'd read the detailed instructions indicating that too much ("within reason, " whatever that means) is fine, but too little is bad.

How soon after adding chlorine did you test? You should wait about 30min with the pump running to let it mix.


I had a further think about it, and I realized that if the amount of R871 is not super critical, then the amount of water must be...

How many ppm of FC one drop of titrating reagent is scales inverse proportional to the sample volume. For example, if your water sample had 9ml instead of 10ml, then one drop of titrating reagent would be equivalent to
0.5ppm*10ml/9ml = 0.56ppm.

In a sample tube with 26mm diameter (not sure what the Taylor or TFT tubes have, I use Clear Choice Labs tubes), 1ml volume difference would be about 1.9mm height difference. I guess, in the dark such a difference might be possible.

I always take my water sample inside. Makes testing easier and I think also more reproducible. I also store my test kit inside, and I find it easier to take my water sample inside, than taking my test kit outside.
 
Last edited:
I find this Taylor SampleSizer to be very repeatable for getting both 10ml and 25ml samples quickly. Highly recommended - especially if you have OCD tendencies :)
That's me - OCD!


How soon after adding chlorine did you test? You should wait about 30min with the pump running to let it mix.




How many ppm of FC one drop of titrating reagent is scales inverse proportional to the sample volume. For example, if your water sample had 9ml instead of 10ml, then one drop of titrating reagent would be equivalent to
0.5ppm*10ml/9ml = 0.56ppm.

In a sample tube with 26mm diameter (not sure what the Taylor or TFT tubes have, I use Clear Choice Labs tubes), 1ml volume difference would be about 1.9mm height difference. I guess, in the dark such a difference might be possible.

I always take my water sample inside. Makes testing easier and I think also more reproducible. I also store my test kit inside, and I find it easier to take my water sample inside, than taking my test kit outside.
In the original case (first post, which I think you were referring to), I hadn't added Chlorine yet, I was testing to see how much I should add. Last time I'd added it was around 7am that morning (about 15 hours earlier, as I think it was 9:30 or 10pm as I was doing the tests. The sun had fully set already.)

Thanks for the details on the equivalence. I'm fairly technical in many areas, but chemistry was never my forte!

It is adding metals to your water - not cool

Not sure where u read that exactly but its best to add liquid chlorine at whatever time ensures you don’t fall below minimum for your cya level. FC/CYA Levels Whenever that is for u.
Keeping fc above minimum for your cya prevents nasties from growing not the time of day in which u add chlorine. The cooties are killed quite quickly with adequate fc levels regardless of the the time of day.
Here’s some calculations on the subject
And thanks - I'll read these.
I'm not sure which post it was, but I think I stumbled on it. I'm not sure it's true, but it made sense. I'm going to add the same amount of chlorine in a 24 hour period no matter when I do it (on average), regardless of when I do it, so why not do it in the evening, where the level can stay higher longer? The fact that the kill takes place in ~1 minute (depending on the FC/CYA level) is fantastic - I didn't know that, but, I get a lot of bugs landing in my pool overnight, too. Now, I don't mean to say that the chlorine is really intended for insects, but I guess if FC is higher, they're less likely to struggle :)

Which was a fascinating thought exercise, btw, because it led me to realize that... Doh! Maybe I should turn of the pool light when I'm not using the pool at night! It's attracting moths!

Hopefully fewer 'swimmers' in the morning!

To put a cherry on all this, I did test again this evening while the sun was still up. Added my chlorine, and will try that for a day or so at least.
I may go back to doing it in the AM simply because it's convenient.

Ultimately, I think I'll be setting up an automatic liquid chlorine dispensor. I need an excuse to program another Arduino, apparently.
 
Remember, it is perfectly fine to dose to the high target 🎯 for your cya or above to ensure u don’t broach minimum before your next dose. As u learn your pool’s consumption based on use & season u will be able to go a couple days between doses if u adjust them accordingly.
It is safe to swim with fc levels anywhere between minimum & slam level for your cya so long as u can see the bottom of the pool for swimmer safety.
 
P.S.
u can also remove that frog 🐸 & replace it with a saltwater chlorine generator - steady dosing like a liquid dispenser but no jugs to lug. You would want a system rated for at least 2x’s your pool volume so 40k gal or more.
 
Remember, it is perfectly fine to dose to the high target 🎯 for your cya or above to ensure u don’t broach minimum before your next dose. As u learn your pool’s consumption based on use & season u will be able to go a couple days between doses if u adjust them accordingly.
It is safe to swim with fc levels anywhere between minimum & slam level for your cya so long as u can see the bottom of the pool for swimmer safety.
Thanks for saying that! I was just thinking a while ago (based on the exchange earlier in this thread) that I tend to dose for mid-range, but I'm often seeing it dip below minimum. I wasn't too worried about it previously, but after reading the thread (some of, not the whole thread) about chlorine kill times, I got to thinking that maybe I should be aiming higher, so it doesn't drop below min. So, thanks for reading my mind and confirming :)

I think part of that my previous logic stemmed from the guidance of the Frog thing, and how they said the FC level could be set much lower using their system. So, considering I still had the mineral pack in, maybe that's why I wasn't having any obvious problems despite dipping below minimum, or maybe I just got lucky. Maybe both. I am pretty lucky - right up until I'm not!

P.S.
u can also remove that frog 🐸 & replace it with a saltwater chlorine generator - steady dosing like a liquid dispenser but no jugs to lug. You would want a system rated for at least 2x’s your pool volume so 40k gal or more.

Which leads to this: I pulled the mineral pack out this morning, so now my Frog is just an appendix on the return line, not actually doing anything but providing an access point which I guess I could use to install my injector, flow sensor/etc if I go home-grown chlorine injecting.

I am growing more intrigued by the SWG approach - but I think I'll save that for next season, seeing as I probably only have ... maybe 2-3 months of swimming left this year? Really not sure, being my first year with a pool. Anyway, I have a lot of questions about that, but I'll mosey over to the SWG forum for that discussion.
 
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I am growing more intrigued by the SWG approach - but I think I'll save that for next season, seeing as I probably only have ... maybe 2-3 months of swimming left this year? Really not sure, being my first year with a pool. Anyway, I have a lot of questions about that, but I'll mosey over to the SWG forum for that discussion.
I am PoolStored, because I was "Pool Stored" Not with frog/minerals...nooo, it was a $1000 UV system. Either way, I figured out the pool store sitchiation right quick. I installed a chlorine pump and last year was fine, AFTER a looong slam. Last fall I converted to SWCG. This year has been STOOOOPID simple...didn't realize the hassle of luggin' chlorine jugs. Best decision I ever made...that, a robot, and smart stir. Without those 3, at this point, I'd backfill the pool. If you decide to go home-brew chlorine injecting, I have a 1 year old tank and pump I'll sell you...even have the original box to ship it to you...
 
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