Featured Elevated spa drains into pool.

[AviB]

First time pool owner here, so please be gentle

Problem: Elevated spa is draining into the attached pool overnight when all of the equipment is off. There is no drainage from the spa into the pool while the setup is in "pool mode" or "spa mode". If the pool pump is not pressurized (when I open the pump to clean the basket but then leave it off) and all the equipment is off then there's no drainage - the spa doesn't seem to lose even a centimeter overnight so I don't suspect there's a leak in the spa (and I don't understand why I'm not observing any drainage before the pump is pressurized).

History: Pool was designed & installed in 2012 by the original home builder, who has since passed away. I moved into the house in January 2024 and noticed the issue right away. I contacted the sellers who told me that this has been happening since they moved into the house in 2016 - they are not pool experts.

Pool: 12,240 gallon in-ground pool with attached elevated spa connected by spillway.

Equipment:

• Pool pump: Jandy Flow Pro 1.5HP 2 speed (230V, 7.2A / 3.0A), 3450/1725RPM - AC Smith / Century Two Speed motor.
• Spa pump: Jandy Flow Pro 1HP single speed (230V, 7.1A), 3450 RPM - AC Smith / Century Centurion motor.
• CS 200 filter
• Jandy heat pump
• Automation:
  • Intermatic PE953 remote, PE653 receiving device.
  • Actuator on return valve, to change between "pool" and "spa" mode.
  • Intermatic PE4043ME Valve Actuator Control. However this wasn't working and I replaced this with $8.99 220V/10A contactor/power-relay instead
• (According to design documents): Spa Jet Piping: Branch 3.0", trunk 2.5", return 2.0"
• (According to design documents): Filter piping: Branch 3.0", trunk 3.0", return 2.5"

Pool design:



Pool plumbing diagram:

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I have identified 2 ways the spa is draining into the pool when everything is off:

1) The original automation had 3 modes:

• "Pool mode": Pool pump is on. 3 way return valve (V-3 in diagram) sends water to pool + spa fountain (I assume so that water would circulate from the spa over the spillway into the pool so it can be cleaned)
• "Spa mode": Spa pump is on. 3 way return valve (V-3 in diagram) sends water to spa jets only.
• "Off mode": All pumps off. 3 way return valve (V-3 in diagram) sends water to pool + spa fountain. This was causing water to drain from the spa main drain, through the (turned off) spa pump, and out to the pool return. Is this normal? Should the turned off pump prevent any water from flowing through? I stopped this drain by changing the configuration so that the 3 way valve is open to the spa-jets only when in "off mode", so that the spa pump & spa-jets are a closed system. Is this normal?

2) Water is draining from the spa fountain into the pool return. There was originally a Jandy 7236 REV check valve as "Check Valve #3" in the diagram. I assumed the check valve was leaking (I heard/saw it clicking and ticking). I ordered and installed 2 different ATIE Check valve flapper replacements from amazon (link) but the leak persists. Any advice for what to do here? I can't seem to get this to stop leaking. Maybe a stronger flapper is needed? Maybe there's debris in the pipe preventing a seal from forming? Maybe there's a design flaw (I'm new to pool)? Maybe it's at the wrong height?

Another question: Is it normal that the spa fountain should be running whenever the pool is on (and therefore the spillway having a flow from the spa into the pool)? I *could* pump filtered water through the spa jets, but I think the spa jets are only 2" pipes while the filter return is 3" so that might make things unhappy? I'm unsure of what the normal mode of operation is for this setup. I'm worried that having water going down the spillway tiles all the time will reduce their useful life?

Any insight would be appreciated. Thanks so much in advance!

 

[Versed01]

Have you considered getting an OEM Jandy check valve replacement? I had the same problem with the above ground spa draining into the pool. My OEM replacement fixed the leak. When I was researching how to fix the problem, I remember reading about others who replaced the valve with non-OEM parts, which continued to leak. Once they got a genuine OEM part, the leak was fixed.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Avi,

If you can stop the drain-down by turning Valve #4, so that it shuts off the Spa Fountain Check Valve #3, then the problem has to be a bad Check Valve #3.

I would inspect the valve body, and make sure that when originally valve was installed, that no glue was allowed to drip into the seal area. As suggested above, I would install an OEM valve... I'd buy a whole check valve and install just the lid/flapper assembly. If that did not stop the leak, I'd replace the whole thing.

Just because a replacement part 'looks' like it will work, does not mean it will actually work.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[AviB]

Thanks, Versed & Jim! I tried to buy a Jandy assembly but I couldn't find any info online about the 7236 check-valve (picture attached) - the only results I found were the amazon "Jandy type" assemblies which mentioned 7236 so I purchased and didn't solve the problem. I just called Jandy and they told me that the check valve I have, 7236 REV 2 (2010 era) isn't actually compatible with most new flapper assemblies, so I'll need to buy a whole new thing and pipe it in. Sigh. Thanks for the feedback!

@Jimrahbe - is it a normal pool design that in "off mode" V-3 needs to be open towards the "spa jets" (so that water doesn't drain from the spa-drain -> spa pump -> pool return)? That is the opposite of how the automation was configured when I moved in, so I'm wondering if I'm misunderstanding something or if the second owner had the automation installed incorrectly? I'm not confident in the automation they setup because they also only wired the dual pump speed to 1 speed (high speed) - whereas I *think* the original builder's intent of having a dual speed pump was to leave the low speed on 24x7 (but the low speed wires were capped off and not used)

Thanks!

 

[Jimrahbe]

is it a normal pool design that in "off mode" V-3 needs to be open towards the "spa jets" (so that water doesn't drain from the spa-drain -> spa pump -> pool return)?

Avi,

Depends on how the plumbing was built.. In your case V3 does not need to be offset.. This is because you have what is called a make-up valve (V4).

When you are a cheap pool builder, you offset the Return valve, so that the Spa will spillover into the pool. When you have a clue what you are doing you install a Make-up valve..

The whole purpose of valve V4 is to send a little water to the Spa, when the system is in the Pool mode.. It is used control the amount of spillover you have, by adjusting the amount of water going to the Spa fountain line.

If this were my pool I would reset V3, so that it moves from being fully closed in the Spa mode to fully closed in the Pool mode, like it was designed. Then in the Pool mode, you can adjust V4 for the amount of Spa spillover you want.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[AviB]

If this were my pool I would reset V3, so that it moves from being fully closed in the Spa mode to fully closed in the Pool mode, like it was designed. Then in the Pool mode, you can adjust V4 for the amount of Spa spillover you want.

I believe that is currently what I do "Pool mode" and "spa mode" both seem to work fine right now. My main question is what should V-3 be set to in "off mode"? I would assume it should be the same as pool mode but then that causes the drain... so when I shut down all the pumps I have it set so that V-3 flows all the water to the spa jets and prevent the drain from the pool. Is that normal?

Regarding the check valve: I'm looking at the Jandy "Check Valve installation instructions" - and it says: "Check valve can be installed in horizontal or vertical piping runs, with the flow running upward. Mounting for vertical installations is critical. See examples below." . Unfortunately the way that the check valve is currently plumbed in and installed has the water flowing *down* vertically through the check valve to the spa jets ... so I think that the physical placement of this check valve is wrong? Have you ever seen a downward vertical check valve installation before? When I look at this check valve when everything is off I see an air pocket at the top of the valve near the flapper assembly, so maybe the pool builder installed the valve contrary to the installation guidelines and is therefore allowing some small backflow?

Thanks!

 

[Jimrahbe]

I believe that is currently what I do "Pool mode" and "spa mode" both seem to work fine right now. My main question is what should V-3 be set to in "off mode"? I would assume it should be the same as pool mode but then that causes the drain... so when I shut down all the pumps I have it set so that V-3 flows all the water to the spa jets and prevent the drain from the pool. Is that normal?

Avi,

I have no clue what you mean??? There is no such thing as an "Off-Set" mode.. (some cheap builders adjust the actuator so that it does not completely close in the Pool mode.. This offset allows some water to go to the spa.. You do not need this.. at all...)

I may have taken you down the wrong path as I used the position of V3 in your diagram as the actual position of your Return valve. If VS3 moves to completely shut off the Spa jets, when in the Pool mode, and to completely shut off Pool pipe, when in the Spa mode.. Then, that is exactly how it should work.

It should not make any difference if you shut off the system in the Spa mode or the Pool mode. The spa should not drain.

Check valve #3, on your Spa Fountain pipe, should be installed so that water CAN flow down and CAN'T flow back up..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[AviB]

Thanks so much for your help and patience so far, Jim, it is much appreciated!

I have no clue what you mean??? There is no such thing as an "Off-Set" mode.. (some cheap builders adjust the actuator so that it does not completely close in the Pool mode.. This offset allows some water to go to the spa.. You do not need this.. at all...)

Sorry - I'm not referring to any "off-set" modes - I'm referring to when both pumps are off ("off mode"). I'm new to pools so maybe I'm using the wrong terminology. The problems here only happen when both pumps are off.

I may have taken you down the wrong path as I used the position of V3 in your diagram as the actual position of your Return valve. If VS3 moves to completely shut off the Spa jets, when in the Pool mode, and to completely shut off Pool pipe, when in the Spa mode.. Then, that is exactly how it should work.

Great - this is exactly how it works so it seems like we're in complete agreement about "pool mode" and "spa mode". The position of the return valve V-3 in the diagram wasn't meant to represent the actual current position - sorry! V-3 is turned by the actuator to completely shut off either the pool pipe or completely shut off the spa jets, it's never in the middle. Both "pool mode" and "spa mode" work as I expect, with no drainage... it's only when both pumps are off that the spa drains into the pool.

It should not make any difference if you shut off the system in the Spa mode or the Pool mode. The spa should not drain.

Herein lies the issue. If both pumps are off and V-3 has the spa jets shut off ("pool mode" position, but pumps are off) then water drains from the spa main drain into the spa pump past check valve #2, through the heater and out the pool return. I can visibly see water flowing through check valve #2 (in the forward direction) when both pumps are off. This doesn't seem normal to me and I'm at a loss for why it is happening?

Check valve #3, on your Spa Fountain pipe, should be installed so that water CAN flow down and CAN'T flow back up..

Yep - the position of the flapper assembly is at the top of the pipe so that water *can* flow down the check valve #3 into the spa fountain. However this is against the Jandy installation guidelines which says "Check valve can be installed in horizontal or vertical piping runs, with the flow running upward. Mounting for vertical installations is critical. See examples below." ... so the check valve and flapper assembly are installed in the right orientation and position but counter to the recommendations of Jandy :/ Any guidance for this?

Thanks again!

 

[Jimrahbe]

Avi,

Almost every spa check valve that I have seen is in the same exact location as yours..

Herein lies the issue. If both pumps are off and V-3 has the spa jets shut off ("pool mode" position, but pumps are off) then water drains from the spa main drain into the spa pump past check valve #2, through the heater and out the pool return. I can visibly see water flowing through check valve #2 (in the forward direction) when both pumps are off. This doesn't seem normal to me and I'm at a loss for why it is happening?

Avi,,

Ok, a light bulb moment!!! Normally, Pool/Spas have two automated valves.. One for the Return valve, and the other for the Intake valve.. Here is how a normal system works...

Pool mode... The Intake valve moves to suck water from the Pool, through the pump and filter and back through the Return valve to the Pool.
Spa mode... The Intake valve moves to suck water from the Spa Drain, through the pump and filter and back through the Return valve to the Spa.

In your case you have no Intake valve on the Spa Drain line... There is just nothing to keep the raised water from doing exactly what you said.. A check valve will not work, as that is the direction you want the water to flow..

The problem is that I have seen many spas with dedicated spa pumps, but have not seen anyone complain about this issue..

Maybe the leaking CV#3 is also causing this issue.. I think you said, that when you shut off, the spa fountain using manual valve #4, that the spa drain down stopped. Is that still true???

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[AviB]

This pool may be the death of me . It looks like things have been neglected for many years, and most things need to be refreshed/rebuilt now that they are 12 years old.

As I stated in my original post, I replaced the internals of the Jandy check valve #3 with this generic ATIE replacement. After that the valve was still gurgling a *slight* amount. The spa still drained into the pool. I then replaced it with an authentic Jandy valve (as recommended by @Jimrahbe and @Versed01 ) and the gurgling/movement in that valve stopped completely. Lessson: Use authentic Jandy replacement flapper assemblies, not the generic ATIE ones.

The spa then held all the water from 6pm-midnight (when I went to bed) and I was confident the issue was fixed. Unfortunately I woke up and checked at 9am and the spa had again lost many inches of water into the pool over the "cold" (60 degree) Orlando evening. I inspected the equipment while it was off and noticed that check valve #1 was sort of flapping loosely... so I pulled it up and it was completely destroyed - the plastic had degraded, the spring wasn't holding any tension - and there was glue in the seal area, as @Jimrahbe suggested there might be (thanks!). I used sand paper to get the dried glue out of the seal area and replaced it with an Authentic Jandy flapper valve.

After replacing all check valve flapper assemblies authentic Jandy ones (link) I only lost 3/8 of an inch of water from the spa into the pool last night (60 degrees, there shouldn't be any evaporation over night).

Next I will be replacing the internals of the Jandy 3 way valve (V-4) and Pentair 3-way valve (V-3). I suspect that V-3 is allowing small amounts of water to leak from the spa drain/pump into the pool returns.

There are still 2 more issues:

1. I see air bubbles in the spa pump and check valves #2 and #1. I plan to inspect and lubricate the o-ring on the spa pump cover.
2. Water in the pool is leaking down to a level where there's a gap / hole in the grout between tiles in the corner where the pool and the spa meet (picture attached). I wonder if the stress of previous owners letting the spa drain/fill/drain/fill for many years caused that problem? I will have a professional leak company come to fix that, but I want to wait until I'm sure that the spa is no longer draining into the pool and causing this stress.

Separately, I got a 2HP variable speed pool pump (Black+Docker) from poolpartstogo because they offered a 10% discount for earth day (woohoo), so I'll have to install that. And I'm looking into a SWG, but that's a topic for another thread

Thanks again to @Jimrahbe and @Versed01 for the feedback and guidance!

 

[Poolbreh]

You have 2 designated lines for pool drains? One looks like it’s been worked on recently(glue color). This setup isn’t the most ideal. I don’t see changing a check valve would remedy the design flaw of the plumbing. Having a designated spa pump is fine, but it needs to plumbed in an isolated loop if the spa is above the pool.

 

[AviB]

You have 2 designated lines for pool drains?

Yep, it would appear so. I don't know why it's designed like that?

One looks like it’s been worked on recently(glue color). This setup isn’t the most ideal.

Oh good catch. I moved into the house less than 3 months ago and that work wasn't done by me. I don't have any info on what work was done or why

I don’t see changing a check valve would remedy the design flaw of the plumbing. Having a designated spa pump is fine, but it needs to plumbed in an isolated loop if the spa is above the pool.

Right - so there is an isolated loop when the 3 way valve V-3 (with actuator) allows the water to flow only to the spa jets. In that state the closed loop is spa drain -> pump -> heater -> V-3 -> spa jets. Check Valve #1 prevents spa drain water from going back to the pool (through the heater), and check valve #3 prevents spa fountain water from going back to the pool. I updated the automation so that the actuator valve on V-3 does the right thing - it's now always opened to the spa jets (isolated) *unless* the pool pump is running. When I moved into the house the actuator was doing the wrong thing when both pumps were off - it was open towards the pool(+spa) return so water was draining very quickly from the spa into the pool when both pumps were off.

Now, even with the isolated loop above water is still (slowly) draining from the spa into the pool. I believe this is because check valves #1 and #3 were both bad - both have been replaced with new genuine Jandy flapper assemblies and the water leak is much less. I believe that the guts of the V-3 3-way diverter valve also need to be rebuilt - (I'm waiting for that set of parts to arrive in the mail) and that's letting some water leak from the spa into the pool.

Yesterday, with everything off, I noticed that the spa pump and check valve #2 have lots of air bubbles at the top of them. The pool pump had no bubbles. I inspected closely this morning and I see a small water leak on the union nuts coming out of the spa pump outlet :/ Valve v-3 also appears to have some water leaking out of it (again, I'll be rebuilding that soon). and there's a cracked union nut on the inlet of the filter.

Basically everything that can break the isolated loop has broken

 

[Poolbreh]

when I say isolated I mean
spa intake>heater>spa return. Then you would have a bypass or equalizer line from a different source to give the spillover feature. I don’t think the original plumber designed your equipment this way, I think the spa pump was added later. I would confirm if that additional pool drain is actually what it’s labeled. The additional pump is pointless imo. Maybe dig up the intake of the spa pump and additional “pool drain”. The original owner installed pool but probably had a plumber do the plumbing, maybe owner wasn’t happy with the strength of the jets and thought adding another pump would help. Most experienced plumbers wouldn’t design it this way.

 

[Poolbreh]

The way it’s designed water will equalize with the pool or highest point in pipe without siphon. That’s why I don’t think any check valve you change will fix the problem long term. It’s a design flaw imo.
Additionally the water isn’t being filtered before going into heater.

 

[AviB]

@Poolbreh - thanks for the feedback!

I don’t think the original plumber designed your equipment this way, I think the spa pump was added later.

I called the original pool installer and they sent me a copy of the original order form and it does show that there are 2 different pumps "spa jet pump: Jandy pro 1.0 single speed" "filter pump: Jandy Flor Pro 1.5hp 2 speed" - so there were 2 pumps from the start.

I think the point of the setup is:
1) In "pool mode", the pool pump is on, V-3 is open towards the pool+spa fountain return, and water spills over from the spa into the pool. This helps clean and circulate the spa water. The main pool can be heated in this way. This works great.
2) In "spa mode", the spa pump is active, V-3 sends the water to the jets for some high power jets. The spa can also be heated quickly in this closed loop because it's only heating spa water. Water isn't filtered, but that's fine - the spa jets are only on for a few hours at a time when in use. This works great.
3) When everything is off, V-3 should be 100% open towards "spa jets" (and closed towards the pool+spa return) so that it's a closed system and no water leaks from the spa into the pool. Right now this is what's leaking... I think it's leaking along the green line you drew on the picture in comment #14 because V-3 needs to be rebuilt (or the actuator isn't closing it all the way). I'm hoping to rebuild V-3 and put in a new Pentair actuator as soon as the parts arrive.

I would confirm if that additional pool drain is actually what it’s labeled. The additional pump is pointless imo. Maybe dig up the intake of the spa pump and additional “pool drain”. The original owner installed pool but probably had a plumber do the plumbing, maybe owner wasn’t happy with the strength of the jets and thought adding another pump would help. Most experienced plumbers wouldn’t design it this way.

I also wondered why there were 2 pool main drains. The main pool has 4x drains at the bottom, so I figured each main drain line was connected to 2 drains. You have pointed out that there is newer blue glue on that second pool drain, and that pipe seems close to the spa main drain pipe ... I wonder if there was a different original design that involved the spa pump also taking in some main pool water?

If that additional pipe isn't really a pool main drain, what else could it be? The pool only has 4 drain and a skimmer port.

The additional pump is pointless imo.

Maybe they decided to use 2 pumps so that the system could share the heater, and avoid the filter when the spa jets are on? I'm very new to this, so I'm just guessing.

 

[Poolbreh]

I would dig up the second pool drain and see if it’s connected to spa main drain.
I don’t want to believe it was designed this way lol. Maybe they had to rework it because something wasn’t working the way they wanted.
This would be a basic setup. Actuators on the intake and return. And return actuator being calibrated for a spa bypass or equalizer. Any additional wf could be off the pool return and any additional wf could be off the spa return. I would want as much info as possible before recommending a more ideal setup. Like I said the way it is setup I think you will always experience problems. Yes having the actuator return set for jets should eliminate this problem, but it’s not a good solution. If you wanted to automate this further it would only complicate matters further.

 

[AviB]

Thanks @Poolbreh ! I tested a few weeks ago by isolating that "pool main drain" as the only thing going to the pool pump and I monitored the spa and didn't see the water level drop. But I'll double check again, and dig it up a bit to see what I find.

The proposed design looks intriguing - one issue today is that the "spa return" is actually a telescoping fountain... if that valve is anything more than slightly cracked open then the water fountain shoots to the sky. The pool pump is 2 speed (3450RPM / 1725RPM) but is currently hard wired to only high speed 3450RPM (it was like this when I moved in). Perhaps the valve could be fully opened when it's on the lower RPM. I'll be replacing the pool pump with a VSP one in a few weeks so that may make the solution more practical.

Thanks again!

 

[Poolbreh]

If it was my pool, I would remove the spa pump. Tie the filter pump into the spa main drain and you could leave the return as is and add a check valve to spa jets. But not necessary with a future automation upgrade. I would also replace the filter with a larger one.

 

[AviB]

@Poolbreh - Thanks! Is there any concern with the filter being in the path of the high speed spa jets? will it affect the performance?

I dug a little bit with my hands - picture attached. The mysterious "pool main drain" goes down while the "spa main drain" goes horizontal. I ran out of time (and place to put the dirt) to dig more :/ I'll circle back when I investigate more.

 

[Poolbreh]

dug a little bit with my hands - picture attached. The mysterious "pool main drain" goes down while the "spa main drain" goes horizontal.

I believe you it’s probably not connected.
If the filter gets dirty it will slow flow and jets. It’s not uncommon for pool spa combos to use the filter pump to also run the jets.
This is the specs on your filter.
Also a plumbing diagram in the same manual.
Compared to a larger filter flow rate max is 150gpm. You would have to clean it less frequently.