curing shotcrete W. PICTURES. Now found CRACK

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aniceone said:
I was hoping I was seeing things, but no - there it is, a crack on the bottom to wall transition curve :(.
Click to expand...
Sorry to see the crack - if they used rebound in the cove and used a flash coat on top of the rebound -which it looks like they may have done from the pictures
The thin section on top dried out faster than the full thickness,creating shrinkage cracks.
What may be a bigger problem is under the crack it may be rebound - which will hurt the performance of the shell.
I would suggest asking the contractor you have concerns and ask him to take some cores of the area in question
Chris
you can find pictures of what a core should look like on this site
www.shotcrete.us
 
Concreteman said:
aniceone said:
I was hoping I was seeing things, but no - there it is, a crack on the bottom to wall transition curve :(.
Click to expand...
Sorry to see the crack - if they used rebound in the cove and used a flash coat on top of the rebound -which it looks like they may have done from the pictures
The thin section on top dried out faster than the full thickness, creating shrinkage cracks.
What may be a bigger problem is under the crack it may be rebound - which will hurt the performance of the shell.
I would suggest asking the contractor you have concerns and ask him to take some cores of the area in question
Chris
you can find pictures of what a core should look like on this site
http://www.shotcrete.us
Click to expand...

And if they used the rebound and the shell is compromised - the the pool pretty much toast? The will probably want to put some epoxy on it and proceed with everything else...
 
aniceone said:
Concreteman said:
aniceone said:
I was hoping I was seeing things, but no - there it is, a crack on the bottom to wall transition curve :(.
Click to expand...
Sorry to see the crack - if they used rebound in the cove and used a flash coat on top of the rebound -which it looks like they may have done from the pictures
The thin section on top dried out faster than the full thickness, creating shrinkage cracks.
What may be a bigger problem is under the crack it may be rebound - which will hurt the performance of the shell.
I would suggest asking the contractor you have concerns and ask him to take some cores of the area in question
Chris
you can find pictures of what a core should look like on this site
http://www.shotcrete.us
Click to expand...

And if they used the rebound and the shell is compromised - the the pool pretty much toast? The will probably want to put some epoxy on it and proceed with everything else...
Click to expand...

No the shell can be saved - if it has rebound in the coves it can be chipped out and re-shot - the bond between a prepared joint and Shotcrete is excellent
this would take some work - but would save the shell - What is the PSI requirements for the pool shell - a core will tell you what you have - it may be a fight right now but you should get what you pd for
 
Is that really a problem? Looks very small, like a hairline, as has been said all concrete cracks. There is re-bar to hold all together. If the crack keeps widening then could be a problem, but as I recall there were a couple "cracks" after my pool sat for 3 months waiting for pebble tech. There were also holes drilled through the wall relieving the water seeping through. So far there's been no problems, but its only been full since 5-27-11.
 
aniceone said:
This is what is looked like when they were building (picture too large to post). The second guy on the right is standing pretty much where the crack is.
http://s1061.photobucket.com/albums/t475/a_niceone/
Click to expand...

The picture looks like they used the Concrete spoils and rebound in the cove and bottom - the crack is mostly in the flash cost - the problem is the shell under the crack may have voids for the use of the rebound- a couple of cores will show you what you have
Good Luck
Chris
http://www.shotcrete.us
 
Concreteman said:
The picture looks like they used the Concrete spoils and rebound in the cove and bottom - the crack is mostly in the flash cost - the problem is the shell under the crack may have voids for the use of the rebound- a couple of cores will show you what you have
Good Luck
Chris
http://www.shotcrete.us
Click to expand...

Chris - and if there are voids & rebound, what should be done? Scrap the whole thing? Report the company? Is there a way to repair this?

I added more pictures - pretty much the entire process. I looks like they shot a layer of concrete on the pool bottom on top of whatever slid down from the walls :cry: .
http://s1061.photobucket.com/albums/t475/a_niceone/
 
aniceone said:
Concreteman said:
The picture looks like they used the Concrete spoils and rebound in the cove and bottom - the crack is mostly in the flash cost - the problem is the shell under the crack may have voids for the use of the rebound- a couple of cores will show you what you have
Good Luck
Chris
http://www.shotcrete.us
Click to expand...

Chris - and if there are voids & rebound, what should be done? Scrap the whole thing? Report the company? Is there a way to repair this?
Click to expand...

please read my prior post
I would call the contractor and tell him you have concerns about the cracks and soundness of the structure - and you would like to take cores in possible problem area's - I would suggest min 3-4 3'' cores - the purpose of the cores is to check
1) see how deep the crack is
2) is the concrete solid
3) test the concrete for psi
Feel free to call me if you need help - please daytime only -
Thanks
Chris

No the shell can be saved - if it has rebound in the coves it can be chipped out and re-shot - the bond between a prepared joint and Shotcrete is excellent
this would take some work - but would save the shell - What is the PSI requirements for the pool shell - a core will tell you what you have - it may be a fight right now but you should get what you pd for
 

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aniceone said:
:cry: :cry: :cry: Sorry - I have read this, but when you say "chipping out" I imagined small bits in one spot, but if there are problems over the entire/most of the pool bottom.... :cry: :cry:
Click to expand...
No it would need to be sounded with a hammer - then chipped with chipping gun/ jack hammer - if rebound is found it needs to be removed -in some cause down to the soil if needed - a clean chipping joint can be re-shoot and is as strong as if was done the day of the shoot - kinda think like a welding joint
 
Here is an article that seems relevant to your situation. It includes the following:

1. In swimming pool structural design, the location in the pool where stresses are the highest is at the base of the wall where the wall meets the floor. This is the most critical location in the entire pool for proper shotcrete application. The common wet-mix practice of using trimmings where they fall, that is, at the base of the wall, places the lowest quality concrete at the location of highest stress. This is the very worst place for the placement of recycled trimmings that are not properly consolidated. http://www.pooleng.com/fv-30.aspx
Click to expand...
 
JamesW said:
Here is an article that seems relevant to your situation. It includes the following:

1. In swimming pool structural design, the location in the pool where stresses are the highest is at the base of the wall where the wall meets the floor. This is the most critical location in the entire pool for proper shotcrete application. The common wet-mix practice of using trimmings where they fall, that is, at the base of the wall, places the lowest quality concrete at the location of highest stress. This is the very worst place for the placement of recycled trimmings that are not
properly consolidated. http://www.pooleng.com/fv-30.aspx
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Great article one of the best written - Ron is a great engineer and a good friend
Thanks for the input
Chris
www.shotcrete.us
 
Well, the guy said that "for shotcrete, unlike gunite, it is perfectly fine to use wall scrapings on the floor and that shotcrete does not produce rebound"... That is after I sent him the links which he obviously did not look at. Yeah...maybe I look stupid or something. He did take the samples.

The shell is also not even (one side is higher than the other), so not they are trying to get masonry people to fix that (and masonry people say they have to fix stuff after gunite people all the time.
 
aniceone said:
Well, the guy said that "for shotcrete, unlike gunite, it is perfectly fine to use wall scrapings on the floor and that shotcrete does not produce rebound"... That is after I sent him the links which he obviously did not look at. Yeah...maybe I look stupid or something. He did take the samples.

The shell is also not even (one side is higher than the other), so not they are trying to get masonry people to fix that (and masonry people say they have to fix stuff after gunite people all the time.
Click to expand...

What do the samples look like - are they cores and did you get pictures - the contractor should tell you how is going repair the side - a good bond is needed so it will not delaminate latter - the contractor is trying to run over you , stick by your guns - you have the California Building Code on your side also the American Concrete Institute -Guide to Shotcrete 506
I feel you pain
Chris
 

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