I have read everywhere that Cu can harm aquatic life. I kind of question if this really happens or if it is one of those things that only happens if everything went wrong. The Cu I use is marketed to kill algae in fish ponds. It has instructions for applying it to a pond with fish in it. It gives the pounds per acre foot to use. It instructs you to make application in quadrants. Dose the 4 quadrants with three day interval between dosing each quadrant. According to the instructions, if you dose the pond that way, the only fish you will kill are Carp. Everyone around here who owns ponds wants them dead anyway. The amount of Cu that would be used to treat a 20 acre pond is more than would be used in 50 years in a typical swimming pool. I guess what I am saying is that I doubt back washing a pool would damage a pond of any size.
Copper
- Thread starter reynolds357
- Start date
We're not talking about just one pool. When looking at environmental impact of chemicals, you need to look at the behavior from millions of pools in the country (10 million residential pools in the U.S.) or of many thousands of pools in one area, at least if you propose people to use copper. If you are only talking about your own pool as an exception, then that is quite different.
The level of copper to inhibit algae in swimming pools is usually around 400 µg/L (0.4 ppm) though is often more like 700 µg/L (0.7 ppm). In aquaria, the recommended copper concentration is more in the range of 150-200 µg/L (0.15 to 0.2 ppm). In the report I linked to in my earlier post, many of the aquatic species including quite a few fish species die at levels even less than 100 µg/L. See this link for how tricky it is to use copper for algae control in aquarium systems.
Now if the wastewater were to be spread out, that would be fine, but if discharge were concentrated in a municipal wastewater treatment plant, then the output from such a plant could be a problem. Even something seemingly as innocuous as salt can be an issue and is why in Santa Clarita Valley prevents use of automatic water softeners and discharge from saltwater swimming pools.
I don't think copper is particularly serious in practice, but I bring it up because it is a pesticide that persists in the environment.
The level of copper to inhibit algae in swimming pools is usually around 400 µg/L (0.4 ppm) though is often more like 700 µg/L (0.7 ppm). In aquaria, the recommended copper concentration is more in the range of 150-200 µg/L (0.15 to 0.2 ppm). In the report I linked to in my earlier post, many of the aquatic species including quite a few fish species die at levels even less than 100 µg/L. See this link for how tricky it is to use copper for algae control in aquarium systems.
Now if the wastewater were to be spread out, that would be fine, but if discharge were concentrated in a municipal wastewater treatment plant, then the output from such a plant could be a problem. Even something seemingly as innocuous as salt can be an issue and is why in Santa Clarita Valley prevents use of automatic water softeners and discharge from saltwater swimming pools.
I don't think copper is particularly serious in practice, but I bring it up because it is a pesticide that persists in the environment.
I will readily admit I am not a chemist. I took Chemistry in College, but I forgot most of it after the final exams. Having said that, what I am about to post is based on my experience and not on scientific fact. I know that in high concentrations, Cu makes a most excellent algaecide. I learned this in treating settling ponds and tanks. I have also observed that even in much lower doses, Cu reduces chlorine demand in a pool and makes pool maintenance much more forgiving. Even if I do not have enough Cu in my water for it and it alone to completely control algae, having a lower concentration in than is required for total control makes the maintenance of chlorine levels much more forgiving. I had never considered the impact of Cu on a municipal water system. I live out in the country and here it gets diluted and absorbed long before it reaches a stream.chem geek said:
GreatCanadian said:
I shock when I get combined chlorine, when the farmer across the road cuts hay, when the farmer behind me cuts wheat, when the wind blows chicken feathers or chicken dust in my pool. If none of that has happened in two weeks, I assume that some of the agriculture waste has gotten in there anyway and raise my F.C. to about 15 PPM. Maintaining a pool in the middle of commercial agriculture and all its air borne contaminates is a bit of a game changer.
reynolds357 said:
Are you like immune to the chicken farm smell in the summer? We have some here in GA and you can be a ways away from them and smell them, horrible.
reynolds357 said:
exactly! it´s the fact that cu makes pool maintenane much more forgiving. it´s great to use to supplement the chlorine, in tiny doses, not instead of it.
[/quote]
Are you like immune to the chicken farm smell in the summer? We have some here in GA and you can be a ways away from them and smell them, horrible.[/quote]
I live in North East Georgia. We probably do not live too far apart. I am used to the smell. I am not immune to it, but have been around it all my life and am accustomed to it.
Are you like immune to the chicken farm smell in the summer? We have some here in GA and you can be a ways away from them and smell them, horrible.[/quote]
I live in North East Georgia. We probably do not live too far apart. I am used to the smell. I am not immune to it, but have been around it all my life and am accustomed to it.
If you are looking to inhibit algae growth even a little, there is more than one way to do that. Polyquat 60 weekly, use of a phosphate remover, 50 ppm Borates all inhibit algae growth to varying degrees but none of these have any risk of staining from either overdosing or having the pH get too high. Now if you've got an accurate copper test kit and you properly maintain your pH, then you can minimize such risks, but it's hard enough to get people to measure their chlorine and pH while the copper test isn't that easy to use and it's not an inexpensive test. I'm not sure everyone would be happy with their grout getting slightly discolored (as you mentioned earlier).costablanca blue said:
We've had way too many reports of stained plaster pools and greenish blond hair to recommend copper. As for a pool service, that's different if you do what you say and keep a much lower copper level and stay on top of the pH. If you don't run into problems, then that's great, but for most pool owners the side effects of copper are too risky. Also, in freshly plastered pools where the pH tends to rise and the pH near the plaster surface is higher, using copper is very, very risky.
The pool store in my area that has two locations and services 2000 pools mostly uses chlorine alone at 4.5 ppm FC with CYA management doing dilution if it gets above 100 ppm (they use Trichlor pucks in between visits). For problem pools, they use a phosphate remover.
If you are looking to inhibit algae growth even a little, there is more than one way to do that. Polyquat 60 weekly, use of a phosphate remover, 50 ppm Borates all inhibit algae growth to varying degrees but none of these have any risk of staining from either overdosing or having the pH get too high. Now if you've got an accurate copper test kit and you properly maintain your pH, then you can minimize such risks, but it's hard enough to get people to measure their chlorine and pH while the copper test isn't that easy to use and it's not an inexpensive test. I'm not sure everyone would be happy with their grout getting slightly discolored (as you mentioned earlier).chem geek said:
We've had way too many reports of stained plaster pools and greenish blond hair to recommend copper. As for a pool service, that's different if you do what you say and keep a much lower copper level and stay on top of the pH. If you don't run into problems, then that's great, but for most pool owners the side effects of copper are too risky. Also, in freshly plastered pools where the pH tends to rise and the pH near the plaster surface is higher, using copper is very, very risky.
The pool store in my area that has two locations and services 2000 pools mostly uses chlorine alone at 4.5 ppm FC with CYA management doing dilution if it gets above 100 ppm (they use Trichlor pucks in between visits). For problem pools, they use a phosphate remover.[/quote:3irwv867]
the dilution of 2000 pools must add up to a lot of water. if using trichlor pucks, that must be about one third of the volume of water drained off per year depending on how much trichlor is used.
i give my customers a choice. if they won´t let me dilute cya sufficiently (because of their water bills) i insist on using copper based algicides. i don´t hide the fact that eventually there will be slight discolouration of grout. there´s no way i´m going to break my back lifting sodium hypo all day.
costablanca blue ,
I also live and work in the Costa Blanca , and I find your reasoning for using copper , flawed to be honest ,
I see many residential pools that are heavily stained by copper , mainly by over use / abuse of multi action tablets that contain copper sulphate. This staining is not light and is not only " a slight slight discolouration of grout " in my experience.
Also , you really need to educate your clients better , as far as the cya dilution goes , as water is still far cheaper than chemicals .
By using additional chemicals ( algicides ) you are just trying to mask over the problem rather than correct it ?
In this area the average home pool is approx. 48 cubic meters ( 8 x 4 x 1.5m ) , and the cost of water is around 1.60 euro a cubic meter , so to carry out a 50% dilution , which really should bring the cya under manageable levels in most pools , would be just over 38 euros, which would be cheaper than the extra chems you are using , and will cure the problem and not just mask over it ?
Ian
I also live and work in the Costa Blanca , and I find your reasoning for using copper , flawed to be honest ,
I see many residential pools that are heavily stained by copper , mainly by over use / abuse of multi action tablets that contain copper sulphate. This staining is not light and is not only " a slight slight discolouration of grout " in my experience.
Also , you really need to educate your clients better , as far as the cya dilution goes , as water is still far cheaper than chemicals .
By using additional chemicals ( algicides ) you are just trying to mask over the problem rather than correct it ?
In this area the average home pool is approx. 48 cubic meters ( 8 x 4 x 1.5m ) , and the cost of water is around 1.60 euro a cubic meter , so to carry out a 50% dilution , which really should bring the cya under manageable levels in most pools , would be just over 38 euros, which would be cheaper than the extra chems you are using , and will cure the problem and not just mask over it ?
Ian
They also add chlorinating liquid to most of the pools weekly so that makes up for some of the chlorine demand. Even so, you are right that after 3 months they are usually near the 100 ppm limit in pools without sand filters and most of the pools use cartridge filters due to water restrictions in the area. And yes, that's ironic. Once one hits 100 ppm CYA, then at even a low 1 ppm FC per day that would be 18% dilution of the water needed per month. For some pools at the high CYA that develop algae, they use a phosphate remover. The typical season for most of the pools is 3-4 months (Memorial Day to Labor Day is typical) though some are 5. I suspect that they cheat somewhat with the high CYA by only diluting the water in pools that actually develop problems with algae or dull/cloudy water.costablanca blue said:
What's interesting is that they sell lots of chlorinating liquid to individual pool owners who do their own maintenance (including myself) but because for their pool service they only visit once a week they don't use that chlorine exclusively. Some pool services with 1000+ customers do use chlorinating liquid or chlorine gas or a combo weekly raising the chlorine level to 14 ppm FC or so which then drops to 4 ppm FC at the end of the week -- the CYA in such pools is at 100 ppm. I asked the pool service using Trichlor why they didn't use The Liquidator or put in peristaltic pumps or similar techniques and they said it was because the customers didn't want chemicals on-site, mostly because they had children. Of course, Trichlor pucks in a floating feeder is still accessible to children (inline chlorinators, less so), but the idea of a tub or vat of concentrated chemical in a pool shed freaks people out.
So their technique works OK in northern California where the swim season is a little shorter, but wouldn't work in more southern areas with longer swim seasons due to CYA buildup, unless in an area with frequent summer rains that can create water dilution from overflow. Also keep in mind that just because a pool gets high in CYA and the FC isn't raised does not mean it will get algae -- it depends on other factors including algae nutrients, amount of sunlight, water temperature, and of course use of any algaecide. In my own pool 9 years ago, I used a Polyquat algaecide every other week and I started to have problems at 3 ppm FC with 150 ppm CYA and my phosphates were high due to 400 ppb phosphate fill water and use of phosphate-based metal sequestrant (it was over 3000 ppb when I measured it a couple of years later).
This thread is just the latest example of why we do not recommend copper ions for use in pools. The test strips and pool store measurements claimed the copper levels were fine -- of course, those results are probably very inaccurate, but still.
This older post is another example of problems even when the hair isn't blond.
It's simply not worth the hassle for most people and on this site we try and keep things as simple and foolproof as possible while still being economical. It is not, however, the zero effort every day system. It's a little time each day or two, but avoiding the costly and time-consuming disasters.
This older post is another example of problems even when the hair isn't blond.
It's simply not worth the hassle for most people and on this site we try and keep things as simple and foolproof as possible while still being economical. It is not, however, the zero effort every day system. It's a little time each day or two, but avoiding the costly and time-consuming disasters.
OK chem geek, i take your point that the forum administrators wouldn´t be wise to recommend copper based algicides to the public.
It´s a real shame though as it makes life much easier when used properly, and it isn´t difficult (ie small doses of chelated algicide and pH around 7.2). I was working yesterday and had a good look at the pools I´d re-grouted over the past few years. There was absolutely no sign of discolouration of the grout. Each pool had had one small dose of chelated copper algicide at the beginning of the swimming season.
I´ll try to remember to take my camera with me next week :?
It´s a real shame though as it makes life much easier when used properly, and it isn´t difficult (ie small doses of chelated algicide and pH around 7.2). I was working yesterday and had a good look at the pools I´d re-grouted over the past few years. There was absolutely no sign of discolouration of the grout. Each pool had had one small dose of chelated copper algicide at the beginning of the swimming season.
I´ll try to remember to take my camera with me next week :?
Ian.H said:costablanca blue ,
I also live and work in the Costa Blanca , and I find your reasoning for using copper , flawed to be honest ,
I see many residential pools that are heavily stained by copper , mainly by over use / abuse of multi action tablets that contain copper sulphate. This staining is not light and is not only " a slight slight discolouration of grout " in my experience.
I didn´t recommend using copper sulphate / multi action tablets.
I think the key to your success is having the copper level be lower, and having the chelation helps with that as well. This won't be enough to completely prevent algae growth if the FC goes to zero, but by taking the edge off growth it makes a pool service person's life easier. The 50 ppm Borates might accomplish something similar and is also mostly a one-time dose except for water dilution (similar to copper in that regard), but it's a lot more initial chemical to add. Polyquat 60 every other week or so would be similar (normal dosing is every week). Phosphate removers are also similar with higher initial dose and not much maintenance needed unless the fill water has phosphate and there's a lot of evaporation/refill (though if the FC gets all the way to zero, then things can blow up quickly if there's organic phosphates).
So there are plenty of options for preventing algae growth if one isn't able to maintain the chlorine level. Pool service people I've spoken to tend to fall into separate camps for their favorites and all of the above methods are mentioned though phosphate removers tend to be the favorite (especially for plaster pools) closely followed by copper (more common in vinyl pools) then further back is a regular algaecide like Polyquat or a linear quat (when foaming is not as much of an issue) and borates are usually last.
So there are plenty of options for preventing algae growth if one isn't able to maintain the chlorine level. Pool service people I've spoken to tend to fall into separate camps for their favorites and all of the above methods are mentioned though phosphate removers tend to be the favorite (especially for plaster pools) closely followed by copper (more common in vinyl pools) then further back is a regular algaecide like Polyquat or a linear quat (when foaming is not as much of an issue) and borates are usually last.
I'm still a newbie, and for any other newbie that's happened upon this thread in the hopes of finding a solution- I wanted to through in my experience with Mustard Algae, 'the pool store', and copper.
When I first took over my pool maintenance I came into a yellow algae issue. I thought shocking it real good would do the trick- nope. Maybe a second time? No good either. I figured it was time for the pool store- a lot of money later with a box of their 'shock', Yellow Out, PhosFree and Acid- and perhaps 10-14 days worth of instructions- I followed everything to the exact letter. It was mostly gone. Tiny bits in the corner of the stairs never went away, but I dismissed those as stains, not algae. (wrong)
Well- it CAME BACK a couple months later, and then the following spring. No matter what, I couldn't get rid of it. I had very recently thoroughly cleaned my filters. I bought a copper algaecide (no chlorine based solution was working, I thought)- and it worked beautifully! THEN- all sorts of problems with the motor, filters, etc. My filters were completely clogged. As in, they were BLUE- and where do I rinse that safely? Not my garden or grass, nowhere my dogs might lick it up. Not good down the gutters either. I have noticed some faint all over staining as well.
It would have been much easier, safer, and cheaper to use the above mentioned methods, had I been aware of this great site back then!
When I first took over my pool maintenance I came into a yellow algae issue. I thought shocking it real good would do the trick- nope. Maybe a second time? No good either. I figured it was time for the pool store- a lot of money later with a box of their 'shock', Yellow Out, PhosFree and Acid- and perhaps 10-14 days worth of instructions- I followed everything to the exact letter. It was mostly gone. Tiny bits in the corner of the stairs never went away, but I dismissed those as stains, not algae. (wrong)
Well- it CAME BACK a couple months later, and then the following spring. No matter what, I couldn't get rid of it. I had very recently thoroughly cleaned my filters. I bought a copper algaecide (no chlorine based solution was working, I thought)- and it worked beautifully! THEN- all sorts of problems with the motor, filters, etc. My filters were completely clogged. As in, they were BLUE- and where do I rinse that safely? Not my garden or grass, nowhere my dogs might lick it up. Not good down the gutters either. I have noticed some faint all over staining as well.
It would have been much easier, safer, and cheaper to use the above mentioned methods, had I been aware of this great site back then!
