Conversion to SWGC - pump question

[centralphoenix]

Hi all,

Sorry if this is not the right sub forum, but the pump is my main question so that's why I chose it.

I am converting my 10500 gallon pool to salt water. My current pump is pretty old, not sure of the power as it is some no-name pump and doesn't have brand/model name anywhere on it. It is single speed wired to 230V circuit.

I inherited wiring that is a little odd - load goes from the panel to an electronic timer, from timer it goes to a service on-off switch right by the pump and from the switch to the pump. esentially, the timer can be on and pass current to the switch and i can still kill the pump operation with the switch. Personally, I'd rather have the switch before the timer, but haven't had time to move it around.

The reason I am bringing this up, is because I was going to wire the SWGC to the switch so that it goes on and off along with the pool pump. However, I read here that the best option for SWGC is a VS pump ran during the day (makes sense). I did some research and found this pool pump that is within my budget: CircuPool SmartFlo® Variable Speed Swimming Pool Pump | 1.5 THP. I noticed it has it's own built-in timer and therefore my question is -

1. if I was going to go with this pump, can I wire the SWGC directly to that pump so that it's on only when the pump is running?
2. If not, how would I integrate the two pieces?
3. Should I just go with a two stage pump? Thinking of running 24/7 on low and boost to full speed for a couple of hours when adding muratic acid.

Not sure if it matters, but the SWGC I got is CircuPool EDGE 40. I have one skimmer and my plumbing is 1.5" in and out. 3 in-wall returns around the pool.

Let me know if you have any questions

 

[PoolStored]

Since the pool pump needs to be on a dedicated circuit and GCFI, rather than try to figure out a "timer" solution that would work for two circuits, I went this route.

I used a CR Magnetic current sensing relay, part number CR4395-EH-120-110-X-CD-ELR . Here's how I wired mine. I put it in it's own box. (You can get the 240v version if you SWCG is 240v.) Either way, you need to figure out how to ensure the SWCG doesn't run if the pump is off for whatever reason. Flow switch should not be the primary failsafe)

I don't know of a pump that can control a SWCG without automation.

If the pump is not running, it will turn off the SWG.

 

[centralphoenix]

@PoolStored - I hear the GFCI part, but why would I need to run a whole separate circuit for the SWGC?

 

[PoolStored]

From the manual...

 

[centralphoenix]

From the manual...

View attachment 503593

I think they meant that when the entire circuit is GFCI run a separate breaker because the pump may trip it and turn off other devices. Which in case of having SWGC is a desirable outcome as you don't want it to be running when the pump is tripped. I don't see why it would require to be on a separate circuit when it only draws 7AMPs

 

[PoolStored]

From http://www.mtpleasantwi.gov/DocumentCenter/View/390/Pool-Wiring-2011-NEC?bidId=

680.10Underground wiring less than 5’ from pool needs to be in approved conduit.
680.12A means of disconnection such as a switch or plug must be within sight of the equipment served.
680.21(A)(1)Branch circuits for pump motors shall be in rigid, intermediate or non metallic conduit or MC cable.UF cable is not allowed because the equipment ground must be insulated. Exceptions apply where wiring is on or within buildings. Flex is allowed at the pump motor
.680.22(A)(1)Receptacles for pump motors between 6’ to 10’ from the pool wall must be locking type, grounded, single outlet and GFCI protected.
680.22(A)(2) Other Receptacles shall be at least 6’from the pool wall and GFCI protected.
680.22(A)(3) At least one general purpose receptacle from 6’ to 20’ away is required for pools at 1& 2 family homes and other dwelling units.

You should be using the required general purpose outlet for the SWG.

And from Electrical Requirements Concerning Above Ground Pools (NEC 2002) - Self Help and More based on 2008 NEC

Remember concerning the following, we are now talking only about the pool pump motor wiring requirements. There is a rule in the NEC that says that you must not install other loads to a motor unless that motor is rated at less than 50% of the ampacity of the branch circuit amp rating serving that motor. NEC Article 210.23.A.2 In the case of your pool pump motor you must install each of these motors on dedicated branch circuits due to the 25% increase in amps rating of the approximate 9 amps of that ½ horse power motor's full load current rating. NEC Article 430.24 If you took the 9 amps and increased it as required to serve other loads with that motor you would find an adjusted amp rating of 11.25 amps which would exceed the limit of 50% of that motor load concerning the ampacity of that branch circuit. You are not allowed to install 30 amp rated branch circuit to serve a convenience receptacle or general lighting such as light fixtures. It would take 30 amps to serve that pool pump motor to install more than the one motor and any other loads, otherwise you would exceed that 50% limit of that 15 or 20 amp rated branch circuit that is limited to serve general lighting. NEC Article 210.21.A

Again, I highly advise you to install each circulating motor on an individual dedicated 12 awg 20 amp rated branch circuit regardless if you install 220 volts or 120 volts to that or those motors rated less than those larger horse power motors required to be a 30 amp branch circuit or larger.

If a receptacle serving a pool pump motor is installed, then you must install GFI protection either in the form of a breaker or a dead front non-receptacle style GFI protective device. NEC Article 680.22.A.5 and NEC Article 210.21.A No duplex GFI receptacles may serve a pool pump motor due to the 50% load of a branch circuit being exceeded after the 125% is added to the motor full load current rating per NEC requirements. NEC Article 210.22.A.5

 

[PoolStored]

Also, if your pump is off for any reason other than GFCI trip, your cell still has power.

 

[centralphoenix]

We can agree to disagree @PoolStored. There are plenty of threads on this forum saying you can wire pool pump and SWGC on one circuit as long as total ampacity is below 80% of the circuit breaker.

You are quoting code for receptacles not circuits. A single receptacle is different from a dedicated circuit.

The other part you quoted only further proves my point - at 7AMP the pump I linked is below 50% of the circuit breaker's capacity. I don't know any scenario why I would want power to the cell if the pump is tripped.

Either way, you answered my other question about not being able to wire the SWGC directly to the pump without automation, so thanks for that. I will look into automation options and in the meantime will continue with my single speed pump and the cell I have.

Also, attached is install diagram from the SWGC manufacturer showing single line/circuit going to timer/control unit and both the pump and the SWGC are wired to the same timer.

 

[sub150]

Hi all,

Sorry if this is not the right sub forum, but the pump is my main question so that's why I chose it.

I am converting my 10500 gallon pool to salt water. My current pump is pretty old, not sure of the power as it is some no-name pump and doesn't have brand/model name anywhere on it. It is single speed wired to 230V circuit.

I inherited wiring that is a little odd - load goes from the panel to an electronic timer, from timer it goes to a service on-off switch right by the pump and from the switch to the pump. esentially, the timer can be on and pass current to the switch and i can still kill the pump operation with the switch. Personally, I'd rather have the switch before the timer, but haven't had time to move it around.

The reason I am bringing this up, is because I was going to wire the SWGC to the switch so that it goes on and off along with the pool pump. However, I read here that the best option for SWGC is a VS pump ran during the day (makes sense). I did some research and found this pool pump that is within my budget: CircuPool SmartFlo® Variable Speed Swimming Pool Pump | 1.5 THP. I noticed it has it's own built-in timer and therefore my question is -

1. if I was going to go with this pump, can I wire the SWGC directly to that pump so that it's on only when the pump is running?
2. If not, how would I integrate the two pieces?
3. Should I just go with a two stage pump? Thinking of running 24/7 on low and boost to full speed for a couple of hours when adding muratic acid.

Not sure if it matters, but the SWGC I got is CircuPool EDGE 40. I have one skimmer and my plumbing is 1.5" in and out. 3 in-wall returns around the pool.

Let me know if you have any questions

First, most pumps are run like this Timer -> Switch -> Pump so you can turn off the pump with the switch by the pump to clean filters/backwash without needing to worry about going back to the timer. Having the switch and timer in the same location is pointless as the timer is a switch.

1) So if you were to run the pump and SWG off the timer, I suppose you could do that but the built in timer on the pump would be useless. The timer resets when it loses power. You would need to leave it at the low speed on manual mode and it would never prime. Without a prime I would imagine you would constantly have air being pumped out of your returns.

2) Most people splice power and run one line straight to the pump so it always has power (so it can run it's schedule) and the other line to the timer and SWG. Timer turns on after the pump is on and turns off before. As long as your pump and timer can keep time, this prevents your SWG from ever being on while your pump is off. You don't need a switch anymore because your pump has an on/off button which single speeds don't have (as does your SWG).

3) I don't there is any savings on 2 speed vs VSP.

I just did a SWG conversion with the Circupool 3HP and a RJ60 and did the above.

 

[PoolStored]

We can agree to disagree @PoolStored. There are plenty of threads on this forum saying you can wire pool pump and SWGC on one circuit as long as total ampacity is below 80% of the circuit breaker.

Yep. All good.

The manual for both are clear (see pic). Your pool, do as you wish (<---this is not intended to be snarky). I will continue to recommend they stay on the conservative side of following the NEC, and all instruction manuals. If there is conflict within the instruction manuals, I will stay with the most conservative instructions. You are certainly informed of the risks.

From both pump and SWCG manuals.

 

[sub150]

Yep. All good.

The manual for both are clear (see pic). Your pool, do as you wish (<---this is not intended to be snarky). I will continue to recommend they stay on the conservative side of following the NEC, and all instruction manuals. If there is conflict within the instruction manuals, I will stay with the most conservative instructions. You are certainly informed of the risks.

From both pump and SWCG manuals.

View attachment 503694

GFCI circuit breakers are extremely rare correct?

 

[PoolStored]

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