Concrete Nightmare

[samholton]

Starting a new thread from the original question about standard thickness of cantilever coping.



Background

• Working with a hard scapes contractor to have a 16x40 inground fiberglass pool installed
• They sub-contracted out the pool, electrical, and concrete work
• Well know and reputable company in the area - near to top of prices in terms of quotes we got
• Had some questions/concerns about the ability of the concrete sub, but our contractor assured us of their work

The above pictures shows what it looks like when they pulled the forms (stegmeier) off the first section. The entire edge looks like this. Concrete sub said they could repair/fix it, we said it needs to come out. I found the installation manual online for stegmeier forms and they basically did everything wrong (no plumb strip for fiberglass, bottom of form set below edge of pool following slope of patio, didn't remove forms and work edge, etc.)

Discussed with contractor and sub today. Concrete sub they could not use the 4" forms but had to use the 6" forms in order to allow for enough thickness for slope of patio. The plan calls for patio to peak in center of the pool and to fall off to each side. Their new plan is to now align the bottom of the form to the lip of the pool, but snap a chalk line within the form and only pour to that line. Then finish by hand to create the profile of the edge. Obviously (to me, not them) that this is the wrong thing to do as it won't result in an even reveal of concrete around the pool. And what is the likelihood that they would get a clean profile doing it by hand.

So at this point, I don't trust anything they say. But my question is how should they address the slop with a peak in the middle of the pool dropping off on each end. They are pouring a border (18ish inches) following the contour of the form. In my mind, that is completely level with the pool. Bottom of form lined up with lip and backing form (18" away from pool edge) is level. Then when they do the second pour for the remaining patio, they match the level of the perimeter pour and smoothly slope down to their desired slope with the patio.

 

[samholton]

My second question is the steps they poured. There is a profile on them with a stamped surface. They stamped the surface before pulling the forms or working the edges/face. The result is a sharp edge, uneven surface between the edge of the stamp and the face. Their solution is to grind it down before sealing.

In my mind, they should pull the forms, work the edge and face, then stamp and let it harden finished. They said its impossible and they need to instead fix it now by grinding it.

Does this look like industry standard finishing work? Maybe I'm too picky? But I didn't expect bugholes/air bubbles in the face of the steps, sharp edges/lips between the stamp and the form, etc.

 

[Toxophilite]

Their problem is that the whole grade of pool height and decking was not planned out properly. They are now trying to "fit" the two at the expense of uniform coping and at your expense in not getting a proper looking pool install. Start with your main contractor, tell them you want nothing more than the "basics" for a paid for pool installation - uniform waterline in pool, uniform coping thickness, and a deck to match up. That's the basic presumption when you bought it, and now it's up to them to get you there. They should have mapped this all out with a transit before they ever dug the hole for the pool.

 

[samholton]

Their problem is that the whole grade of pool height and decking was not planned out properly

Yeah, I think you are spot on. Forgot to mention that originally we were supposed to have a single step down from the house to patio, and that has now turned into two 6" steps. So something got off somewhere. Their explanation is measurements in the field are always tweaked a bit. Sure, but going from one step to two tells me its more than tweaked.

The water line is level from what I could eye ball and the pool contractor said it was less than 1/4" off. I will measure when they get the concrete out.

 

[Toxophilite]

Yes, the waterline can be level if pool is level, but the way they had it, it would have "looked" like the ends were low and sunk because your eye only judges level by uniform height of waterline to coping. Now, they want to raise coping and split the difference in coping thickness, but again, you are still going to perceive a height difference. Don't let them do that!

6" lower to house than originally shot is about what you are off, judging by the 6" coping form having to terminate at top instead of bottom. It's likely they set the pool shell 6" too shallow.

 

[samholton]

Assuming everything was perfect, and they attach the forms correct (bottom of form aligns with top of pool) and pour that 18" perimeter completely level - how _should_ the slope be introduced on the surrounding patio. Its supposed to peak in the middle and run off. Do they just do the patio pour with the slope, but gradually raise it up to meet with the completely level perimeter?

(not sure if this is clear, can draw a picture if not)

 

[Toxophilite]

I was curiously involved with mine when the time came. The first important measure shot was final top grade of pool with that of porch slab. Everything from there has to slope away from pool and away from porch/house. It may require drains between pool and house incorporated into decking, removing ground height in places, and raising ground height in places. So, yes, they should raise everything to meet pool level but sill make sure there is gradual slope away from pool.

It seems now they are trying to match your pool grade to decking grade, which will not work for you. They need to set up the pool coping by manufacturer standards assuming that final grade is correct to house, and then deal with all surrounding ground level.

 

[samholton]

Heard back from the pool sub and he confirmed the pool is not pitched in the middle with a slop like concrete sub is claiming. Also confirmed that was within level to less than 1/4" over the run. Now I'm questioning the concrete subs ability to measure anything. Going to go out tonight with a laser level and shoot it from the pool to the house and confirm their decision for two steps vs the original one.

 

[duckcmmndr]

You need to get with the contractor that hired the concrete sub, he needs to come look at what you have in person. That is terrible concrete work. I was terrified of something similar when I did my pool. I don't think the guy that did this knew how the foam forms are supposed to work...based off the step video, I am not sure he knows how concrete works. I searched high and low and found a concrete crew that does pools with foam forms on a weekly basis. They did a fantastic job and tore the forms off and finished the edge before it was 100% set.

I hate that you are going through this.

 

[samholton]

Still trying to wrap my head around how this should be working. Adding a picture for some clarity hopefully. Let me know if any of the following are not true

1. cantilever coping around the pool should be consistent reveal thickness - from lip of pool to top of coping should be a consistent 4"
2. cantilever coping perimeter (approximately 18") should have little to no slope
3. The pool decking / patio should have 1/4" per foot of slope

As you can see from the picture above, the plan was to have the elevation peak in the center of the pool and run off to either side. Behind the pool it would probably be fine to just slope it backwards into the yard rather than to the sides. However, the front side it needs to run to either side so it doesn't dump all the water into the house foundation.

The arrow on the right side is what I'm not wrapping my head around. The coping perimeter will be a zero elevation at the end of the pool. However, the decking at this point should be 20/4 = 5" lower than the peak in the center. How do those two meet up (the back of the coping perimeter and decking)? There is only a around 5 feet of patio between the right end of the pool and the yard.

I would think this would be a standard install, house --> patio --> pool... don't run water into house or pool. Or is some sort of channel drain normally used in a situation like this?

 

[Toxophilite]

Yes, your coping should have even thickness, but should be perfectly level as is pool, so #2 is should have "no" slope. By your drawing as planned, all of you pool/coping elevation is to be at that elevation peak in the middle. If you grade 1/4" per foot to each end, then, at no point but in that peak middle will your deck ever be on same level as pool and match to coping level. From that middle line going to each end, each foot out the deck drops lower than pool coping, starting at 1/4" for the first foot of deck, till it's a 5" drop at end.

Basically, to maintain that drain-off design, your coping and deck cannot be at same level on the longitudinal unless you put in a slope from pool and slope from house to meet in the middle and put in a drains and drain line under decking, which is what most do with a pool behind house like that.

Here's showing how a drain line and drains (line with circles drawn) between house and pool would allow you have deck and coping on same plane and drain water away from both. All red arrows start at coping elevation (elevation peak ) and slope away.

 

[samholton]

Thanks. That makes sense. I'm thinking they forgot the drain on their original plan.

 

[Toxophilite]

Thanks. That makes sense. I'm thinking they forgot the drain on their original plan.

There is a possibility they were planning to slope inward and also slope out to ends, but I think that would look bad with all the slope angles in your deck, as you want your deck to look as level as possible, be level to pool, but still allow drainage. With the single slope to middle like I drew, it can done and hardly noticed unless the pool is very close to house/porch.

 

[samholton]

Pool is about 16 feet away from the house.

Another question, they are planning the 18" coping perimeter pour as a separate pour. Should there be an expansion joint with the foam stuff between that and the rest of the patio?

 

[Toxophilite]

Yes. Here's a good link: Expansion Joints and Coping - Further Reading

 

[duckcmmndr]

The info that @Toxophilite provided is right on target. Your coping should be as level as the pool. You will want to slop down from there in all directions including towards your house. You will have to have a deck drain between the pool and the house. I had to have 2 deck drains, one between the pool and house and one between pool and the pool house. You can see below:

 

[samholton]

New concrete contractor was out tonight and immediately recommended the deck drain.

I'm a bit concerned about the one piece drain and not being able to repair or easily clean it. Any thing to lookout for or are they really hassle free? Looks like stegmier may have one with a removable face vs the deco-crete solid unit.

 

[duckcmmndr]

New concrete contractor was out tonight and immediately recommended the deck drain.

I'm a bit concerned about the one piece drain and not being able to repair or easily clean it. Any thing to lookout for or are they really hassle free? Looks like stegmier may have one with a removable face vs the deco-crete solid unit.

Sounds like you are on the right track.

I used the stegmier with the removable/replaceable top. I may never have to replace it...but I sleep better knowing that I can if need be.