Chlorine loss & pH level

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Hi. Here’s where I struggle. I have been on the BBB method for a couple years and have done my best to fully embrace it. Before that, I was using trichlor pucks and did not test every day (or even intra day) and had very few water problems. If 2-4 ppm is consuming approx 60 oz of bleach per day, that means I’m spending about $60 per month on bleach! I used to buy one big bucket of pucks for about $100 for the season which would last me May through September. Now I’m spending triple that. I have a tiny 10k gallon pool, so I can only imagine what people with big pools are spending. Is this normal??

Also, added my location as requested. Hope that helps.
 
I'm in MA, I lose 1.5 ppm/day when sunny, my 30K pool costs ~$55/month w/ liquid local 10% liquid chlorine. Yes past years w/ dichlor was cheaper but that's what lead me to TFP as my CYA got out of control. I hold my CYA at 70 now, which means I keep baseline higher but I find daily loss lower....as long as I maintain it and don't have to worry about SLAM anymore it gives me more stability day to day for FC (not saying you need to increase your CYA to those levels just my current level). Since I have vinyl and my CH is low I am going to supplement FC w/ cal-hypo sometimes instead of liquid bleach because I can get it at a lower price per ppm then the liquid chlorine but savings are marginal, it's more for storage convenience.
 
DOMO said:
Hello all. duraleigh, i don't mind you shouting, as I'm sure there are a lot of people who have not read Pool School and don't use Pool Math correctly, however, i'm not sure why you think I have not read Pool School, but you are incorrect. I HAVE read Pool School many times and I use Pool Math EVERY SINGLE DAY to test and balance my water. That said, there are things in Pool School and Pool Math that are not 100% clear and subject to interpretation. For example, frequency of testing and treating when dealing with issues, and please do not get me started with the subjectivity and lack of precision on the CYA test, which in this case, is a key driver to what #s I need as a key reference point to hit Min, Target, SLAM, etc. If these things were so black and white, there would be much less need for a forum. And then you get people saying 'don't trust the CYA # from the PS', which clouds the issue further.

Not sure where the instructions are for the 'sock method' on adding stabilizer, but my apologies if I missed that somewhere on the site for adding CYA. However, that method flies in the face of the description of the manufacturer of the product. Again, sorry I if missed that instruction somewhere on TFP or if I should have somehow 'just known' to do that approach.

And #40 fan is completely correct, I have received conflicting guidance on when to test and treat (and not just with this issue). Clearly, it's not as formulaic as everyone thinks, and the uncertainty and variances of opinions, while greatly appreciated, leads to confusion. In this thread alone, I have been told to re-test CYA same day after treating, 24 hrs later, and 2-3 days later.

I am a big supporter of this forum and have spread the word to many people re: Pool Math, BBB, and TFP, so I greatly appreciate the help and responses and don't want the above to come across as unappreciative, but there are areas for improvement in some of the guidance and clarity and approach, which is what brings people to a forum for discussion. Thanks.
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To add my 2 cents:
One obvious thing about a forum is anyone can post any of their ideas on what someone should do to their pool. So the problem exists that some people who give their advice are inexperienced or only have a partial understanding of pool care.

The mods/TPF "experts" have a much better understanding of pool care than some who post - and I include myself in that, knowing that I have some experience but by no means a full understanding. With that said, the links that mods post (they are highlighted) are the best references for what to do to a pool to get it balanced.

So when a mod/TFP expert gives me advice I follow it. When they ask for specifics (like numbers), they need them to give more specific help.

In no way am I suggesting that others on the forum do not know what they speak of, just some have a better understanding than others. If there is conflicting advice when in doubt, listen to the mods/experts. I know I take some things posted and filter them thru my TFP mindset.

I hope this helps with all the confusion and is encouraging.

FYI: I don't see your location in your sigy or next to your name. Also, do you have to lower your water levels for winterizing your pool?
 
DOMO said:
Hi. Thanks for the reply. If I’m losing 1/3 ppm daily, isn’t that high? If my target is 6 and I’m at 4 or less each morning, isn’t that more than 10%, or am I misunderstanding? I’m located in Rowley, MA
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Please excuse me if I get this wrong but I think there's some confusion here.

Marty said "That amout of 10% LC each day is certainly not excessive". He is talking about using that much Liquid Chlorine (with a 10% concentration of sodium hypochlorite) is not excessive. It sounds like DOMO was thinking "10% LC" meant 10% chlorine loss because he said "If my target is 6 and I'm at 4 or less each morning, isn't that more than 10%", I take that to mean he's thinking a loss of 2ppm FC per day when the target is 6ppm FC is a loss of 33% which is more than 10%. So I think that is the misunderstanding here, if I'm wrong, I apologize.
 
Thanks for pointing that out, that is exactly what I’m saying.

And just updated my profile again for geography. The problem is that I did not out have my birthday info in there so it didn’t save the first time. Not sure why bday info is required to save geographic location (or at all, for that matter), but it should be there now.
 
FC loss is somewhat correlated to a % each day depending on CYA, UV impact, organics, bather load, etc. But it is far easier to relate it to 2-4 ppm FC loss per day. Some days on the low end, other days on the high end.

In your pool you might be able to track FC loss vs FC/CYA ratio and eventually come up with a % that works in YOUR pool.
 
Okay, then. Yes, so in general you shouldn't expect and % loss per day. Anything around 1-4ppm FC per day is normal and highly dependent on where you live, how much sun the pool get per day and how many bathers use the pool per day. For instance last year was my first with my pool after buying the house and it started out with ~120ppm CYA. So I kept FC about 14ppm and still only lost 1ppm FC per day.
 
Demegrad9 said:
Please excuse me if I get this wrong but I think there's some confusion here.

Marty said "That amout of 10% LC each day is certainly not excessive". He is talking about using that much Liquid Chlorine (with a 10% concentration of sodium hypochlorite) is not excessive. It sounds like DOMO was thinking "10% LC" meant 10% chlorine loss because he said "If my target is 6 and I'm at 4 or less each morning, isn't that more than 10%", I take that to mean he's thinking a loss of 2ppm FC per day when the target is 6ppm FC is a loss of 33% which is more than 10%. So I think that is the misunderstanding here, if I'm wrong, I apologize.
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^^^^ My thoughts exactly!

I think what further compounded the confusion was that DOMO had already stated that they were using 8.25% LC not 10%. And the LC concentration doesn't even matter in the loss, just the ppm, right?

Unfortunately, I've noticed that some threads will show signs of frustration due to incorrect facts being referenced. I think this is the result of folks attempting to help multiple posters at the same time and probably bouncing back and forth between different threads. I'm sure it is very difficult to remember the details of each thread, but it can make it very confusing to the original poster that is looking for help and only reading their thread.
 
A few posts back, someone asked if I lower my water in the winter. Yes, In upper New England, we lower our water level below the skimmer/returns and during the winter (when we're not in artic temperatures), I peel the cover back and bring the water back to that level via a siphon as rain and melting snow/ice can raise it through the cover. Based on usage this Summer, I estimate I am spending nearly $60. / month in bleach (and that is without having to do any SLAMs). Compared to < $100. / season in tri chlor tabs, I am starting to think I can no longer afford the bleach method. Given that we do remove so much water for winterization (and due to splash out with kids, dogs, evaporation, etc.), if my CYA is as low as it started this season (20 or less), I think it would take an entire season (remember, New England has a VERY short swim season) for my CYA to reach too high level.
 
You can definitely use trichlor all season. Just test your CYA often and maintain the FC based on the [FC/CYA][/FC/CYA]. After a short time you will need to supplement your trichlor with liquid chlorine to keep the proper FC/CYA ratio. You also need to factor in the baking soda you have had to add in the past as the acidic trichlor dropped your pH and TA.
 

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DOMO, can you be more specific about your liquid chlorine source? Where do you buy it? What brand is it? And double check the % sodium hypochlorite. What is the price per gallon?

My pool is over 3x more volume and I only spend ~$25 per month on liquid chlorine.

Just for reference I buy a product at ocean state job lot called "Super Shock" that is 12.5% and cost $3 per gallon. I lose about 1ppm per day which I realize is pretty low but even if you're losing 3ppm FC per day than our cost per month should be the same.
 
Hi. Thanks for the reply. I buy my bleach from our local grocery store, Market Basket, which is a very reasonably priced store. It is typically $3. for a 121 oz bottle (8.25%), but I have seen it higher. As previously mentioned, I lose any where from 2-4 ppm/day. I'm not familiar with the super shock product at Ocean State Job Lot, but if that is recommended (by the Moderators of this board) as an alternative to standard bleach, I'm happy to look into it.
 
Bleach is sodium hypochlorite is liquid chlorine. The less cost per effective ounce the better.

Use the Bleach $ Caluclator in the Pool Math app to determine the best cost.
 
sorry, not sure I understand the response. do you mean to see if this product from Ocean State Job Lot will do the trick? if so, just to play devil's advocate, isn't tri-chlor essentially the same thing as well, but because it adds CYA due to the manufacturing process, it's not as recommended? that's what I meant by 'recommended by the moderators/this site', as i'm cautious to make sure i'm not using a product that will adversely affect something else.
 
The liquid 'shock' is sodium hypochlorite, aka bleach, aka liquid chlorine, aka chlorinating liquid.

Trichlor is solid. The chlorine is bound to the CYA and thus stabilized.
 
"Super Shock" is just the product name, everyone around here doesn't like the work "Shock" in a product name because "shock" in the pool world is a verb not a noun. But hey, I don't name the products.

This "Super Shock" is just high strength bleach, i.e. nothing like Trichlor. Trichlor is a solid product which is ~50% CYA, and it's extremely acidic where any form of bleach is mildly basic, more or less pH neutral when accounting for all other factors.

Largely, what I was originally getting at though was that I think you should try to find a better place to buy your bleach, maybe the bleach at Market Fresh isn't so fresh and not actually 8.25%. But there seems to be more here than that. You say lose 2-4ppm FC per day, let's take an average of 3ppm. That only requires 44oz of 8.25% bleach. So for a month you'll need 1,320oz of 8.25% bleach, that's 11 bottles of your 121oz bleach containers. So that's only $33 per month.

So anyway, sounds like something is amiss here. Maybe your losing a little more than you think, maybe the bleach isn't fresh and not actually 8.25%, maybe your CYA is a little low.

I do believe having a solar cover helps with FC loss, maybe because of less evaporation, maybe just less UV gets to through the cover.

Overall I'd recommend making sure you're at least at 50ppm CYA and targeting 7ppm FC. the higher CYA should give you less FC loss per day. Maybe think about getting a solar cover
 
Bizzle is talking about the OCLT test. This needs to be done to verify that there are no organics in you water. Algae can be present, but not seen. And your CYA level is 50 now from what you posted 45-50. Always round up to the next increment of 10. You should be targeting 6-8 and never going below 4 with FC. I would target 8 minimum every night.

Do you check the date code on the bottles when you pick them up?

Your CYA will build up alot faster than you realize. You guys blew my mind
 
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