chlorine acid vanish, CYA vanished, bad pH reagent and non-ergonomic spoon

[chem geek]

Re: confused about HASA web site info

I use Hasa 12.5% chlorinating liquid and it works well. You can use the Trichlor tabs to chlorinate to raise CYA and they will help keep the pH in check since they are acidic. They will also lower your TA which you can let drop to 70 ppm since you'll want it on the low side to reduce the pH rise once you switch back to using only chlorinating liquid. In your situation with a lot of chlorine breakdown from sunlight (you can do an overnight chlorine loss test to confirm you don't have other unusual chlorine demand), I'd have your CYA at least at 50 ppm and then keep the FC proportionally higher per the chlorine/cya chart. Finally, once you've reached your CYA target and switched to using only chlorinating liquid you should set a higher pH target or 7.7 or 7.8 and don't lower the pH to below 7.5 when you add acid. That should help lower the amount of acid you need.

 

[engrav]

Re: confused about HASA web site info

Hi
this thread is now messy; probably my fault
was on confusion of HASA recommendation vs tfp
then my FC and acid black hole
then my intense pH colors
then the spoon
and is not over as none of them actually solved as yet
and is in Just Getting Started where most probably could not care less

so
leave it here and let it play out?
move it?
break it up?

 

[jblizzle]

Re: confused about HASA web site info

Just keep it going with you various problems .... I moved it out of Just Getting Started.

 

[engrav]

Re: confused about HASA web site info

I use Hasa 12.5% chlorinating liquid and it works well. You can use the Trichlor tabs to chlorinate to raise CYA and they will help keep the pH in check since they are acidic. They will also lower your TA which you can let drop to 70 ppm since you'll want it on the low side to reduce the pH rise once you switch back to using only chlorinating liquid. In your situation with a lot of chlorine breakdown from sunlight (you can do an overnight chlorine loss test to confirm you don't have other unusual chlorine demand), I'd have your CYA at least at 50 ppm and then keep the FC proportionally higher per the chlorine/cya chart. Finally, once you've reached your CYA target and switched to using only chlorinating liquid you should set a higher pH target or 7.7 or 7.8 and don't lower the pH to below 7.5 when you add acid. That should help lower the amount of acid you need.

cool, I think I am stumbling in the direction you describe
thank you very much

this may solve the FC and acid black hole problems

1) have bought HASA 12.5%
2) am running the Rainbow at setting 3 with 5 Trichlor tabs
3) I did the OCLT (11 at 8pm and 10 or 11 at 5am)

now my question(s) is / are
if 5 tabs add 5.5ppm CYA to 30k and I only know CYA is <30, it may take a very long time to get to 50 so

should I just plug on and let it play out, let the Trichlor slowly add CYA or
should I buy a gallon of liquid CYA which would put 12ppm CYA in 30k fast
(solid stuff dinking round for a week or so does not sound interesting)

never mind the other questions for now
1) where did my CYA go (may start another thread on this in another folder)
2) why is my pH color too intense (am waiting for TF-100 to arrive to check this)
3) non-ergonomic spoon (will do the heat bend drill and let that be that)

thank you again for your response

 

[engrav]

Re: confused about HASA web site info

Ok as per jblizzle will continue the messy thread

regarding question #1 above "where did my CYA go"
I have read many places that to reduce it you must swap water but
I also read the chem geek discussion on CYA Degradation by Oxidation from Chlorine accentuated by temperature

now my CYA measurements in the pool diary are rather skimpy prior since I thought "it never goes away, gotta swap water" which is unfortunate, and cannot really measure below 30 with K-2005 but

it seems this downward CYA thing started or at least materialized when I heated the pool to 85 (for toddlers, oh and geezers)

the water entering the heat exchanger is 160
as the pool water passes the boiler water in the exchanger surely some of the pool water feels the 160 degrees

is it possible that the CYA is / was destroyed within the exchanger?
is there a thread somewhere describing what a heat exchanger does to balance measurements?

I suppose I could take pool water, get the various values, heat to 160, remeasure
but that would be messy since in the exchanger the exposure to 160 is probably just nano seconds, not minutes

 

[jblizzle]

Re: confused about HASA web site info

I can not recall exactly, but I thought chem geek had reported about a 5ppm loss per month at hot tub temperatures ... curious to see his response.

 

[engrav]

Re: confused about HASA web site info

thank you
as a matter of fact, where did it go is messier

I perused the pool diary and find
Oct 2013 CYA 50
Feb 2014 CYA 45
Jun 2014 CYA 30
with no water swaps save occasional 2 or 3 minute bwash

one could conclude CYA dwindled away all winter (as indicated in some other threads)

and then
Jul 2014 after heating to 85 boom, CYA not measurable


now it is said that for a plane to crash (excluding pilot error) there is sufficient redundancy that more than one system must fail

one could say it dwindled away all winter then vanished when I turned on the exchanger
of course, maybe it just dwindled to 28 and is now not measurable and the heat exchanger did nothing

in Pool School it says
Weekly
Test the TA level and adjust if needed.
Test the CH level and adjust if needed.

In the spring, mid-summer, and any time there has been substantial water replacement
Test the CYA level and adjust if needed.

perhaps the latter comment should be modified for newbies

 

[jblizzle]

Re: confused about HASA web site info

Why modify it ... your results could be reasonable. A drop of 5ppm over 4 winter month and then another drop of 15ppm over the next 4 spring months ... keeping in mind the test accuracy is +/-15ppm.

Seems that in June (Spring) you should have added more CYA since it was low and then checked it again in August.

I personally check mine every month or so.

 

[engrav]

Re: confused about HASA web site info

thank you

Well
is true in retrospect I should have done something in June but PoolMath says 30 is the low goal so I passed
and
is true I have not been round long enough to see the forest as well as the trees
but

if you check yours every month or so, seems I should do likewise and the Pool School directions do not generate that level of attention to CYA in newbies (at least this newbie)

or maybe an asterisk saying "if your value = the low goal and the trend over time is down, you should adjust to the mid-range"; which may in fact be common knowledge to old-timers and/or too many words for PoolMath web page; although you have useful additions at the bottom.

 

[chem geek]

Re: confused about HASA web site info

one could say it dwindled away all winter then vanished when I turned on the exchanger
of course, maybe it just dwindled to 28 and is now not measurable and the heat exchanger did nothing

This seems the most logical. If you let a pool go (i.e. don't maintain the chlorine level) over the winter, then CYA can definitely get reduced a lot or go away completely from bacteria degrading it. The loss at other times is not that unusual factoring in water dilution (backwashing/cleaning filter, splash-out, rain overflow) and slow oxidation of CYA by chlorine (possibly accelerated some by the hot heat exchanger though I have my doubts given the short exposure time).

 

[engrav]

Re: confused about HASA web site info

This seems the most logical. If you let a pool go (i.e. don't maintain the chlorine level) over the winter, then CYA can definitely get reduced a lot or go away completely from bacteria degrading it. The loss at other times is not that unusual factoring in water dilution (backwashing/cleaning filter, splash-out, rain overflow) and slow oxidation of CYA by chlorine (possibly accelerated some by the hot heat exchanger though I have my doubts given the short exposure time).

thank you

diary shows that I did keep the chlorine above 3 all winter so CYA dwindled anyway

someday could let water cool down, measure CYA, heat it up, measure CYA

as for the current issue you advise
1) just let the Trichlor slowly add CYA or
2) buy a gallon of liquid CYA which would put 12ppm CYA in 30k fast or
3) either is fine

 

[JasonLion]

Re: confused about HASA web site info

I recommend adding a little (say 15 ppm) of granular CYA/stabilizer. That should be enough to get a reading on the CYA test, will stabilize your sunlight losses, and will still allow you to use trichlor tablets to get it to exactly where you want it. The liquid is way too expensive and has no advantages.

 

[engrav]

Re: confused about HASA web site info

I recommend adding a little (say 15 ppm) of granular CYA/stabilizer. That should be enough to get a reading on the CYA test, will stabilize your sunlight losses, and will still allow you to use trichlor tablets to get it to exactly where you want it. The liquid is way too expensive and has no advantages.

Ok thank you

will go get some

kinda messy tho as readers discuss
what type of sock to put it in
whether to put in skimmer or float round attached to a noodle
whether to squeeze the sock a few times per day
and have to wait a week to see it register on the test

if liquid out here is not all that much more $$ may should just bite bullet and do it

 

[engrav]

Re: confused about HASA web site info

140715 the never ending or maybe not yet ended multi-threaded thread

Greetings
am back on Whidbey so the multi-threaded thread continues

little threads in the big thread
1) pool is a bleach / acid black hole
2) where did the CYA go
3) how to get the CYA back
4) why is the pH color so intense
5) non-ergonomic spoon

this AM
FC 4.5
pH 7.4
CYA <20
pool is clear 85degrees, $25 of heating oil gone every day
FC remaining up with the Rainbow running, CYA has not budged; or maybe it has, maybe went from 5 to 7

1) in progress, now have 12.5% bleach and am running tabs in the rainbow; process rather stalled until CYA reads something
2) read 30 on 6/25 when I started heating; then black dot still visible with tube full on 7/5 after heating to 85; hard to believe heating did not do it will become clearer when I get it back up; checked today with TF100 and find CYA < 20, black dot visible with tube full
3) got the granular stuff as per JasonLion and the infamous sock is in the skimmer as of 7am; with about 30 ounces (about ½ of calculated) (hope I chose the right sock)
4) got new R0004 and test is fine on many tries; talked to man at PoolPro (who I like, no real retail, no testing, just builds services pools, says he has 500 to service) who smiled and said “reagents go bad, we never used big bottles and just toss the little ones when we get funky results”; I think will do same
5) and I heated and bent the spoon as per zea3, now IMO works better but is black from the match, also should note that the spoon goes from hard to melted in nanoseconds; turns out it is just a Taylor spoon so I emailed them asking why not a more ergonomic spoon; will they ever answer? doubt it
pics below
also why not change the title of this thread as current title is total incorrect
or not
or do I just change it

thank you again

 

[jblizzle]

Re: confused about HASA web site info

You can change the title yourself by editing the first post in the advanced editor.

 

[engrav]

Re: confused about HASA web site info

You can change the title yourself by editing the first post in the advanced editor.

done, thank you

 

[engrav]

am back

is 9am, two hours after sock into skimmer

went out and wiggled squeezed the sock

white clouds emerge, skimmer turns milky; wait a few seconds and skimmer is clear
I suppose CYA sucked into filter; one hopes filter then barfs it back

may stop after ½ the prescribed dose; would be super sad to overshoot after all this

 

[engrav]

Hi
10 hrs since sock went in (30oz)
6 hrs since sock was empty
CYA still <20

when should I put in another 30oz CYA?
thank you

 

[jblizzle]

The CYA may not show up on the test for a week after it dissolves. You can add more whenever you want as long as you are targeting a reasonable level.

 

[engrav]

thank you

Ok then

JasonLion said put in 15ppm and let the tabs do the rest
15ppm is 60oz; I put in 30oz
since I am not generating empty chlorine bottles with the Rainbow running (5tabs setting3) I think I will watch it for a time

will be fun to see what happens