Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed?

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Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

Carlscan26:

"Try rotating the return valve to spa only as I suggested" Which valve are you referring to? The two actuator controlled valves rotate together if
done with the electric controller. I can manually rotate either one individually. As mentioned, the valve "under the towel", rotated alone manually,
emptied the spa. I can rotate the other spa valve ..the "spurting" valve, alone or with the "under the towel" valve.

THANK YOU!
 
Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

Lets back up a bit and explain some of the plumbing so we are on the same page.

Based on your pictures, you are currently in Pool Mode ((EDIT ... I see that your 5th pic "under_towel.jpg" has different valve positions than the rest ... Ignore that picture)). If you "hit the button" both actuators would turn 180 degrees and you would be in Spa Mode.

The valve/actuator by the pump is called the Suction plumbing (water comes from the pool/spa to the pump).
Water then goes through the filter and heater to the next valve actuator.
The valve/actuator between the filter/heater is the Return plumbing (water goes back to the pool/spa).

When you turned the valve by the pump, you started sucking from the spa and returning to the pool (labeled as "Cleaner") ... thus the spa emptied.

We suspect that your "clog" is on the return side (pressure side of the pump).

Leave your suction valve alone (pulling from the pool "Floor" and "Skimmer") and turn the return valve from "Cleaner" to "Spa Return". So you will start overflowing your spa ... hopefully back into the pool (this is sometimes called Spillover Mode). If your filter pressure drops a good bit, then we have confirmed that something must be wrong in the cleaner return and that your filter/heater/etc seem to be ok.

At this point we are not addressing the spurting that I believe is coming out of the Suction actuator right? Sounds like you have to replace the seals and the surging may go away if we get off the Cleaner return plumbing.

Sorry if you already knew some of this ... just want to be clear with terminology so we know you are trying what we suggest.
 
Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

lweljwel said:
Carlscan26:

"Try rotating the return valve to spa only as I suggested" Which valve are you referring to? The two actuator controlled valves rotate together if
done with the electric controller. I can manually rotate either one individually. As mentioned, the valve "under the towel", rotated alone manually,
emptied the spa. I can rotate the other spa valve ..the "spurting" valve, alone or with the "under the towel" valve.

THANK YOU!
Click to expand...

Your spa should not have emptied unless you had also changed the spurting valve from the position shown in all your pictures (EXCEPT #5 "under_towel.jpg" ... IGNORE the valve positions in that picture and consider the rest the "baseline" POOL mode)

1. Put the spurting valve with the HANDLE pointing to the floor/skimmer side ... this closes (as is written on the handle) the spa suction side.

2. Put the towel valve with the HANDLE pointing to the Spa Return ... this closes the cleaner side and your spa should really start to spill over.

NOTE (unrelated to problems): The white plumbing with the white valve looks to also be a spill over. So even if you are returning to the pool cleaner, the spa will be getting a little water (since the ball Grey handle ball valve is slightly opened). So I imagine in Pool Mode you always have a little water spilling from the spa to the pool. If you were to close that valve, the spill over will stop.
 
Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

Thank you! That helps me understand the "flow". I may have confused you in my description of the
valve that emptied the spa (started to empty the spa)...

It was the valve "under the towel", on the top left looking at the equipment and wall of the house.
The "higher" of the two "spa" valves.

That is not the "spurting" valve, which you have accurately described and I believe is, yes, a new
and unrelated problem.

NOW I will go back to your last post [can't see it while answering]...and see which valve we are talking about
to "overspill" the spa. OK, after returning to you reply: The valve by the pump is NOT the valve that
emptied the spa, it was the other, higher valve on the left. Rotated by itself, not in unison with the other one.

I do have one very unfortunate "new" issue. I am stopping and thinking about right now.
The pump will not prime. There is very little spray from the relief valve on the filter.

I am hoping this is something silly I have just overlooked. I will pour some water in the pump basket before
I try again...and think a little bit more. The pump sounds fine, but...Yes, I am thinking for a minute.
 
Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

Something is not right with all of this.

I have read and re read the posts. I agree with what you are saying. But it is not responding as it should.

Generally, could a "clog" in the system result in the malfunctioning? IE: The upper left spa valve
emptied the spa; while the lower right spa valve was "closed'. And yes, the knob on the white
pipe is the overspill control. It requires crazy-accurate adjustment for perfectly timed pop-up
operation.

I may need to sit back and think. Smething is really haywire.

I think I should open the filter and check for a "stoppage" or restriction in side the filter (the cartridges are
still outside of the filter). The "no prime" is worrisome. But, I will rethink and carefully check each thing.

:|
 
Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

Sorry if I confused you with my suggestion. What I meant was to put your system in spa mode and see what the pressure is.

The valve in front of the pump is the suction valve. The one on the left is the return valve. To put it in spa mode you want it sucking from the spa and returning to the spa. Please let us know what the pressure is when it is in spa mode.

Which of the two valves is the leaking one?
 
Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

Good morning [I thought about crawling back under the covers]...
The "spurting' valve is the suction valve. The return [towel] valve is the one that emptied the spa. As I recall, only the return valve was rotated
when the spa started to empty..and it hasn't refilled completely. I had rotated the return valve manually so the "suction-spurting" valve hadn't been
moved. That's what doesn't seem to make sense based on what you are saying. I have NO idea why the system won't prime. That was out of the blue.

Unless the "spurting' valve is leaking more than I am aware of? Could that keep the system from priming? I can run and buy a few o rings if that's a possibility.

????
 
Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

Since the "spurting" valve is on the suction it could certainly cause the pump not to prime. If it'll leak water out it'll leak air in and air is a lot eaiser to move than water so it only takes a small water leak to leak a lot of air.
 
Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

There is some confusion about the valves and actuators. Realize that the "electronic control" items are valves too, just that their operation can be controlled automatically. They can also be set by hand.

Also, I can't see all of the piping between the filter and heater, so I am not certain what all is there, but let's ignore that for the moment. Let's look at the suction and return separately.

Suction side:
This is the source of water TO the pump, FROM the pool/spa.
In front of the pump there are three pipes coming out of the ground, which appear to be labeled FLOOR, SKIMMER, and SPA SUCTION [if I am reading/guessing the labels correctly]. This setup has three valves: one automatic valve on top which selects the between the spa suction, and the floor/skimmer suction lines. There are two manual valves which are used to adjust/balance the flow between floor and skimmer when this side is selected by the automatic valve.

Return side:
This is the piping that flows out of the top of the pump, to the filter, heater, and back to the pool/spa.
Ignoring the filter/heater/etc. for the moment, there are two return lines which go into the ground back to the pool, labelled CLEANER and SPA RETURN [again, if I read the labels correctly]. Atop this is an automatic valve which allows the selection between the two.

The net of all this is that the water can be taken FROM pretty much any combination of the spa, pool skimmer, or pool floor, and returned TO some combination of spa and pool cleaner system. This is pretty simplified, and ignores some things like the Jandy after the filter inlet and the spa return bypass valve, but it is a good model for troubleshooting.

I'll take a break here and let this jell a bit, then we'll talk about some basic troubleshooting steps.
 
Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

OK: This morning....

First...system primed. It took a while and I had "poured" buckets of water into the pump [cartridges are still outside of the filter].

Second: VERY odd to me. Could the "spurting" spa suction valve be the wrong valve? By that I mean: It only rotates
90 degrees???. If I switch to spa mode. the Spa Return rotates 180, but the spa suction rotates only 90, leaving the pump
sucking from the "floor", the "skimmer" AND the "spa". Obviously, I don't know the correct answer, but should the valve rotate
180 and "close" the suction lines from the "floor" and "skimmer" and leave only the "spa" sunction open? Or, with the Spa Mode,
is in correct to have all three "open". Because the Spa suction valve would not close the skimmer and floor, I manually closed
those two valves and the pressure remained at 32 PSI with no pulsating noise or PSI.

The pop-up mains raise, but there seems to be no pop-up action.

In pool mode, the pressure is primarily 32 psi, but the "pulsating" pressure, which occurs for no apparent reason for alternating
periods that seem less than a minute.

I don't think the "spurting' spa sunction valve is any part of this primary issue--well--other than it may be the wrong valve.

I am baffled by the "pulsating" pressure. What could cause the "pulsating" pressure?

Also, the non-working pop-ups (at times).

The system did "suck up" a golf ball once???? Fortunately I heard the motor. I have no idea how the golf ball made it through
the plumbing, it seemed to large to get through [to me]. That was several months ago, likely last summer.

So, I guess at this point, the very high "pulsating" pressure is the primary "issue".

THANK YOU!


Oh! I may have a response so If this is untimely I apologize!!!
 

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Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

Ohm boy! Good Morning, and Thank you. You have answered one of my questions already. It seems the valve at the Spa Suction point is the wrong valve,
although I can close the floor and skimmer with "their" valves, the spa-suction [spurting] valve will not rotate completely to close the skimmer-floor suction.

Second, to confirm, the cleaner-spa plumbing....does that come FROM the spa and cleaner, or go TO the spa and cleaner?
 
Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

Ohm_boy....PLEASE disregard my question about the direction of the cleaner-spa plumbing. You were very clear...I didn't pay close enough attention.

Thank you!!!!

I understand what you have said. I can take a picture or tell you about the plumbing that exists between the filter and heater if you are interested.

[Did I say thank you!!!]
 
Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

I want one of the real pool guys to chime in on the valve rotation, but if I understand the valve controllers, they will rotate 180* by default, and there are "stops" that can be set to limit how far it actually moves when less than 180* is desired.
The Jandy valves themselves are variable; when the handle is halfway, or 90*, the flow is split evenly between the two pipes. When at 45*, flow will be 25% on one side, 75% on the other.

*Degrees. I'm too lazy to find a real degree symbol in the unicode character set.
 
Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

Also, I have tightened the valve handle and reset the "spurting" valve so it's leaking is not visible. I will admit [just because...] when I originally
reassembled the "spurting valve", I had inserted the lid "backwards". The "inlet" was open to the floor and skimmer, and the "off" was the direction of the
"spa". It is tighter as corrected. Again, it seems to me that it should rotate 180-degrees, but it does not. I dn't understand how it could work rotating only
90 degrees. It seems it would cause a problem with the actuator, also. I had the "too long" pipe and the valve on that pipe "replaced", along with the front of the
pump-pipe and the "spurting" valve a year-ago December. I am disappointed.
worked on a little over a year ago. I am disappointed.
 
Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

Repeating an earlier statement, if the pressure is high, there is something restricting the outut of the pump. In order, that would be filter, heater, RETURN valve and piping. The first check would be to note the difference between with the RETURN valve set to spa vs cleaner.
 
Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

LOL! I can't find a degree symbol either! The spurting-valve. Yes, there are "stops" on the lid. As it currently exists, the choices are:

1) Spa suction closed, or, "nothing' closed...ie "everything open"

The valve is at a three way intersection consisting of a) floor & skimmer b) spa c) "to" pump....[a T-intersection with the T being the "to pump".

When it was "reversed" (just saying)... the options were a) spa closed, or, "to pump" closed [I knew that wasn't a good choice]

So, perhaps its the valve "lid" that is incorrect. I believe the direction of the installation of the "handle" is limited to only one choice and is not optional.
 
Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

IN order of the listed trouble shooting:

Pressure in pool mode: 32 psi with alternating stable 32 psi and then "pulsating" 20 - 32 psi??

Pressure in spa mode [requiring manual bipass of floor and skimmer]: 32 psi stable
 
Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

Ohm_boy: Just to confirm. When you say Spa return...that includes "spa return" AND "spa suction" selected?

Selecting ONLY spa return empties the spa.
 
Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

Ohm_boy: Just to confirm. When you say Spa return...that includes "spa return" AND "spa suction" selected?

Selecting ONLY spa return empties the spa.
Click to expand...
Well, that seems to me to be the opposite of what I meant. With "return" meaning "FROM the pump TO the pool" and "suction" meaning "FROM the pool TO the pump", then selecting POOL SUCTION and SPA RETURN should overflow the spa, not empty it.

It occurs that now may be a good time to review the Jandy 3-way valve operation though... the handle points to the open flow. The flag opposite the handle points to the closed or "off" side.
On a two-way valve, the handle aligned with the pipe is open, 90º [Thanks, BR] is OFF.
 

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