Borax questions

[Steve456]

Your pool service may have been using copper to prevent algae. The tabs have probably increased your CYA way above recommended levels.

Normally I recommend that pool owners stay out of pool stores and test their water themselves. A properly maintained pool does not require phos-free. In your case you want to keep the copper in solution until you remove the copper by refilling or reverse osmosis.

As a preventive measure to prevent copper staining you could add the proper Jack's Magic solution. The pool store could tell you if you should use the “Pink Stuff” of “Blue Stuff”. Copper stains are very difficult to eliminate.

 

[anomale]

** UPDATE** I recieved the tkt-100 test kit today so I took a sample down to the pool store for a comparitive analysis. here are the pool store results

FAC 2.5
TAC 2.5
CH 460
CYA 100 ( i asked if this is actual or the limit of their tester he said it was actual)
TA 100
pH 7.5 (FINALLY)
COPPER .05
IRON .01
PHOSPHATES 300

I'm a bit puzzled by the chlorine numbers because i checked it about two hours before and it was at 5 then I added enough bleach according to the calculator to increase it to 8, could the 40 minute drive to the pool store have degraded the chlorine in the water?

I'll be posting the results from the test kit later it's still too hot here to go and try the kit for the first time

I'm also suprised that the copper level went from 5ppm to .05ppm and iron went from 3ppm to .01ppm after using two bottles of metal free liquid I bought another bottle to remove the remaining metals. kids will definately be happy now that they can swim again.

 

[linen]

Let us know when you get your test results. Now that you have the right tools, no need to rely on the pool store.

 

[anonapersona]

Too hot? Take the sample into the house. Test it there. Just count out loud so no one interrupts you. Pour it down the sink with lots of water after.

 

[anomale]

ok using the test kit here are the numbers

FC 4.5
pH 7.5
T/A 150 seems high too but i followed the instructions and thats what I got
CH 870 seems kinda high but it took 85 drops plus the two for the copper before it turned blue maybe i'm doing something wrong how long should I wait between each drop? i added and swirled then added again.
CYA there is no number on the tube but for reference it was half way up from the bottom to the 100 level I'll dilute with some distilled water hopefully tonight if I can get to a store

there was no instruction on how to test for CC, and TC so I dont know what it is. If you guys can explain how to test for that it would be appreciated.
and for the record it took 15 boxes of Borax to get the pH up to 7.5

 

[linen]

CYA there is no number on the tube but for reference it was half way up from the bottom to the 100 level I'll dilute with some distilled water hopefully tonight if I can get to a store

you can use tap water for the dilution for CYA. Tap water should have no CYA.

there was no instruction on how to test for CC, and TC

CC instructions are near the end of the FC instruction section. TC is just FC plus CC, so don't worry about it. The Basic kit (blue box) tests only TC, which is less useful than individually testing FC and CC when dealing with potential chlorine issues in a pool.

CH 870 seems kinda high but it took 85 drops plus the two for the copper before it turned blue maybe i'm doing something wrong how long should I wait between each drop? i added and swirled then added again.

You can use a 10ml sample instead to save reagents. See: http://www.troublefreepool.com/extended-test-kit-directions-t25081.html#p206396 Test your fill water for CH, it is probably high. Have you been using cal hypo to chlorinate?

T/A 150 seems high too but i followed the instructions and thats what I got

It is probably right, you can always test again to confirm. Check your fill water for TA. 150 is not incredibly high.

 

[anomale]

update: just performed the CYA test again using the tapwater method listed in the link from linen and the CYA leval is at 200 I entered that into the pool calculator and it says i need to replace 75% of the water to bring it down to 50. is there any other way to remove / lower the CYA?

From what I understand (please correct me or elaborate so I understand better) CYA stores the chlorine but does that mean that the pool water never utilizes the chlorine if its at a level of 5 for example? will I start to see algae if I keep the chlorine at a level of 5 with CYA of 200? currently the water is pristine and has been that way for a few weeks with the chlorine at 4-5 using bleach

I dont plan to refill until march - april of next year so during that time what should I be doing with the chlorine levels? would converting back to the trichlor tabs help any? also If I need to maintain a high chlorine level above 5 is there an easy way to test the levels? like using a kit similar to the blue k-1000 but with higher numbers.

thanks

 

[anomale]

ok so i searched around and found this chart regarding CYA and minimum chlorine levels http://www.troublefreepool.com/chlorine-cya-chart-t2346.html According to this i need to maintain a minimum FC level of 15 to be on the safe side and a target level of about 23. are there any side effects to having the FC level this high either to the pool or swimmers?

pool calculator says to use
228oz of 6% bleach or 16oz of trichlor tabs to go from a 4 to 15
or
394oz of 6% bleach or 28oz of trichlor to go from 4 to 23

I still have a half of a 5 gal bucket of tabs should I use them up first or not even bother. I also have about 4 192oz jugs of bleach but I can always use them for the laundry

 

[msgtdan]

Others can tell you better than I but I wouldn't use the Trichlor as it will raise your CYA and you need to lower it. I'd stick with bleach.

 

[chiefwej]

The tabs would raise tha CYA even higher, and you need to lower it. Yes, you are in danger of algae unless you maintain very high chlorine levels. You need to start draining and refilling. You don't need to do it all at once, but a series of partial drain and refill will bring down the CYA and copper levels and make the pool much more manageable. Otherwise you will be buying Chlorox by the truckload.

 

[linen]

update: just performed the CYA test again using the tapwater method listed in the link from linen and the CYA leval is at 200 I entered that into the pool calculator and it says i need to replace 75% of the water to bring it down to 50. is there any other way to remove / lower the CYA?

So you got 100 with 50 % dilution? Again, it may be much higher. Please do a 3 parts tapwater to 1 part pool water and see what you get.

From what I understand (please correct me or elaborate so I understand better) CYA stores the chlorine but does that mean that the pool water never utilizes the chlorine if its at a level of 5 for example? will I start to see algae if I keep the chlorine at a level of 5 with CYA of 200? currently the water is pristine and has been that way for a few weeks with the chlorine at 4-5 using bleach

At 200 or greater, at that level it is likely a "when" will you get algae and not "if".

I dont plan to refill until march - april of next year so during that time what should I be doing with the chlorine levels?

I would do it now, unless you are winterizing. Is there are reason why you can't?

would converting back to the trichlor tabs help any?

Do not bring trichlor tabs anywhere near that pool, it is too high in CYA already. That also go for the dichlor (often labeled as "shock").

also If I need to maintain a high chlorine level above 5 is there an easy way to test the levels? like using a kit similar to the blue k-1000 but with higher numbers.

What kit do you have, just the k-1000? You will need a kit that does FAS-DPD (see my sig).

 

[anomale]

Ok how do I do the two part tap water method? Is it the same as the 1 part but fill with tap water to the top again after emptying to the lower lever?

I wanted to do a full drain next year for two reasons one is that towards October the winds pick up here really bad and fill the pool with dirt and debris until December and the fiberglass liner has a couple cracks in in that I want to fix so that timeframe wil also allow me to save up for the repairs and also research how to do it myself if I can. I'm thinking worst case Scenario that I will have to respray the whole liner again

I do have the tf-100 test kit but was looking for a quicker and easier way where I can just add water put 5 drops and get a result

 

[linen]

Ok how do I do the two part tap water method? Is it the same as the 1 part but fill with tap water to the top again after emptying to the lower lever?

There are a couple ways:

One way (maybe this is what you did) done using just the cya test bottle is: for 50 % dilution, pool water up to bottom of label, then tap water to top of label, mix, then pour off until solution is at bottom of label, then add reagent to top of label, multiple results by 2. For 3:1, pool water to bottom of label, then tap water to top of label, mix, drain to bottom of label, then tap water to top of label, mix, then drain to bottom of label, then add reagent to top of label, results multipled by 4. This may have been what you were describing? I think this method would work fine.

Another way you can do it is outside of the bottle with more volume and potentially better accuracy. For a 50% dilution (or a 1:1 ratio of tapwater to pool water) in another container you mix 50% pool water to 50 % tapwater. This mixture you put in the bottle to the bottom of the label, then add the reagent to the top of the label. Once you get your reading in the graduated tube, you multiple it by two. Same approach for 3:1 method, but of course do 3 equal parts tap water and 1 part pool water, and use that to fill the bottle to the bottom of label.

I wanted to do a full drain next year for two reasons one is that towards October the winds pick up here really bad and fill the pool with dirt and debris until December and the fiberglass liner has a couple cracks in in that I want to fix so that timeframe wil also allow me to save up for the repairs and also research how to do it myself if I can. I'm thinking worst case Scenario that I will have to respray the whole liner again

I do have the tf-100 test kit but was looking for a quicker and easier way where I can just add water put 5 drops and get a result

They only way I know is to do a dilution and use a DPD (test FC up to 10 ppm) or OTO test (not real acurate, can only test up to~ 5 ppm TC depending on the operator). FAS-DPD is best.

 

[anomale]

ok thanks I'll try the three part method later today and what is the multiplier for that?

i guess i'll have to buy a bunch of DPD powder since I'll be taking the chlorine measurements daily :grrrr: they should create an icon that shows no more money in the wallet hahah

 

[linen]

Sorry, I just edited my response above to include the multiplier. 3:1 results are multiplied by 4.

 

[anomale]

Linen maybe my math is off but Im a bit confused. you say 3:1 but in the description its actually 2:1 or only adding two parts tap water and 1 part pool water is that correct or should i fill to bottom with pool water then top with tap water drain add tap water to top drain and add tap water again drain and add reagent.

Same approach for 3:1 method, but of course do 3 equal parts tap water and 1 part pool water, and use that to fill the bottle to the bottom of label.

 

[anomale]

ok i did the bigger sample size with one part pool water and three parts tap water result was roughly 128 using a multiplier of 4

i'll also did the fill to bottom add tap to top mix drain to bottom add reagent approach again and im getting a little over 200 with a multiplier of 2 (water level was just below 100 in the cylinder

 

[linen]

ok i did the bigger sample size with one part pool water and three parts tap water result was roughly 128 using a multiplier of 4

Just so I understand you measured 32 in the vial? If that is the case I would believe your ~128 ppm in the pool. Quite high.

Linen maybe my math is off but Im a bit confused. you say 3:1 but in the description its actually 2:1 or only adding two parts tap water and 1 part pool water is that correct or should i fill to bottom with pool water then top with tap water drain add tap water to top drain and add tap water again drain and add reagent.

Which version? Test bottle or external? I think they are both right?

 

[anomale]

yes i measured 32 in the vial i took about 300ml of pool water and 900ml of tap water and shook it then dumped into the bottle to the bottom filled with reagents and measured 32

the second test i filled pool water to the bottom of the vial then tap to the top mixed dumped down to the bottom and filled with reagent to the top and got 220ish

which test is more accurate? just for my understanding for future tests both are way too high

 

[frogabog]

The 2:1 mixture should be the more accurate of the two, theoretically.

What's your gut feeling on this though? Have any idea of how many pucks you've added? How many pounds of dichlor? Have you entered that total quantity into the pool calculator to see what the result could/should be?

Which result do YOU think is more accurate?