Borates, pH and TA

[Lesley L]

We are relatively new to this again, having fired our pool cleaner. I started off the summer 30 days ago with these numbers:

FC 0.5
CC 0.5
pH 7.4
TA 110
CH 500
CYA 60
BOR 30

Probably four years ago I had done the whole thing and added borates in my pool was beautiful for the season. Then I had a stroke and hired a pool guy. I’m able to do it again and so after draining 2/3 of the water and working on the chemicals, this is where we stand today:

FC 0.5
CC 0.0
pH 7.5
TA 50
CH 425
CYA 37

I’ve been working to get the pH down enough to adjust the TA so that I can add the borates, but we have had so much rain here in Houston that I just keep adding more and more acid. So here’s one of the strange things that I can’t figure out. My borates appear to be well over 100. That doesn’t make any sense because I haven’t done anything to the borates and my pH is way too volatile for the borates to be like that. I feel like my test strips are faulty somehow? I’m using the Taylor strips that I purchased with the recommended pool kit. The strips are white around the edges and very light in the middle after 30 seconds.

I’m not worried about the CYA right now so I just added pool tabs because they were empty. I’m also trying to get the pH down around 7.0-7.2 so I can then make sure the TA is in range and then get the borates. But what in the world is going on with the borates?

Thank you so much for your help!

 

[PoolStored]

I’ve been working to get the pH down enough to adjust the TA so that I can add the borates, but we have had so much rain here in Houston that I just keep adding more and more acid. So here’s one of the strange things that I can’t figure out. My borates appear to be well over 100. That doesn’t make any sense because I haven’t done anything to the borates and my pH is way too volatile for the borates to be like that. I feel like my test strips are faulty somehow? I’m using the Taylor strips that I purchased with the recommended pool kit. The strips are white around the edges and very light in the middle after 30 seconds.

You pH is volatile because your TA is low. What do you think you are trying to do to "adjust the TA so that I can add the borates?" Don't add more acid, you are likely on the edge of crashing your pH. Your TA (50) and pH (7.5) is fine.

Here is a better read:

Managing pH and Total Alkalinity - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Borates...likely the test strips. They are not really reliable. How old are they?

You can build your own drop test for borates. Really accurate with a speed stir:

New borate drop test at piscines-apollo vs. test strip

Thanks, SunnyBlues. You have been reading and learning a LONG time to remember all those experts. Thanks for your testimonial.

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[duraleigh]

Welcome to the forum (again)

CHLORINE! CHLORINE! CHLORINE!

Everything else can be solved later but you MUST get chlorine in that pool!

 

[Newdude]

 

[Lesley L]

Welcome to the forum (again)

CHLORINE! CHLORINE! CHLORINE!

Everything else can be solved later but you MUST get chlorine in that pool!

Ok thanks, done!!

 

[Newdude]

done!!

Repeat daily.

Add the expected daily loss everyday, plus a little extra for wiggle room, to ensure you are still free and clear above minimum at tomorrow's dose.


Or we will have to fix your swamp, and whatever else you had going on. Don't worry, we'll help. But we don't want to see you have to go through that. We're good friends like that.

 

[Lesley L]

You pH is volatile because your TA is low. What do you think you are trying to do to "adjust the TA so that I can add the borates?" Don't add more acid, you are likely on the edge of crashing your pH. Your TA (50) and pH (7.5) is fine.

Here is a better read:

Managing pH and Total Alkalinity - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Borates...likely the test strips. They are not really reliable. How old are they?

You can build your own drop test for borates. Really accurate with a speed stir:

New borate drop test at piscines-apollo vs. test strip

Thanks, SunnyBlues. You have been reading and learning a LONG time to remember all those experts. Thanks for your testimonial.

www.troublefreepool.com

Thanks for all the details! I was under the impression that I had to get my pH between 7.0 and 7.2 and then raise the TA by aerating before I could add the borates. Are you saying I can go ahead and add the borates now? That would be fantastic!

And yes, I am using the borates test strips. I purchased them last month when I purchased the TF–Pro, and from the same company. I thought that since I was purchasing from them, they would be reliable. Is this is not true? I will definitely look into making my own tests if there’s nothing accurate that is easier.

Thank you again for all the information.

 

[Lesley L]

Repeat daily.

Add the expected daily loss everyday, plus a little extra for wiggle room, to ensure you are still free and clear above minimum at tomorrow's dose.


Or we will have to fix your swamp, and whatever else you had going on. Don't worry, we'll help. But we don't want to see you have to go through that. We're good friends like that.

 

[mknauss]

I was under the impression that I had to get my pH between 7.0 and 7.2 and then raise the TA by aerating

You need to re-read Managing pH and Total Alkalinity - Further Reading

 

[Mdragger88]

You mentioned tabs…
Trichlor tabs are acidic & will really complicate things
They also add cya thus increasing your necessary fc requirement.
They also take time to dissolve.
Use liquid chlorine asap!
Do you know what the pool person has been adding to the pool? Perhaps it was some borate containing product? They’re generally very expensive & pool services love to sell them.
The borate strips have the same trouble as other strips aka hard to interpret. You can try using one on your tap water to see what the result is.

 

[IceShadow]

Thanks for all the details! I was under the impression that I had to get my pH between 7.0 and 7.2 and then raise the TA by aerating before I could add the borates. Are you saying I can go ahead and add the borates now? That would be fantastic!

Any pH in the 7s is fine, and TA 50 is great if you’re not chlorinating with tabs or dichlor / trichlor powder, both of which are acidic.

And yes, I am using the borates test strips. I purchased them last month when I purchased the TF–Pro, and from the same company. I thought that since I was purchasing from them, they would be reliable. Is this is not true? I will definitely look into making my own tests if there’s nothing accurate that is easier.

The strips were all we had for a while, and the only thing currently commercially available. As mentioned there’s a method to make your own titration system that’s more accurate than the strips. But borates are not a “needs to be in this range or you will get algae / get scale / destroy your pool equipment” sort of element to pool chemistry.

 

[midlifecrisis]

And yes, I am using the borates test strips. I purchased them last month when I purchased the TF–Pro, and from the same company. I thought that since I was purchasing from them, they would be reliable.

For what it’s worth…I ordered mine with my kit as well and they consistently gave me the same reading, which was off the color chart when I knew about where it should have been. I ordered more from Amazon and zero problems since (about where I figured, too!). I don’t think it’s TFTestkits fault and I never said anything other than mentioned it in a post on another poster issue.

I didnt feel the effort was there to spend the time returning them. I’m sure there are bad batches occasionally so I just moved on. point being that may be what is happening to you.

 

[Mdragger88]

If you recently got the strips from tftestkits & have confirmed they are bad by checking your tap water give them a call/email & they will make it right. If you confirmed you were at 30 before you drained 2/3 of the water then you’re at around 10 now if no other borate products have been added. You could add 30ppm worth & be in the recommended range of effectiveness. As mentioned, borates aren’t an absolute necessity so just leaving it alone is fine too.
Keeping fc above minimum for your cya at all times
FC/CYA Levels
& keeping ph in the 7’s is paramount.
With your ta of the ph rise should be slower anyway.
There’s nothing super magical about borates, they are simply a “helping hand” if you will, for buffering ph rise & some people like/notice that they change the feel of the water, they are truly the last thing to worry with & are completely optional.
Some years I add/replenish borates, some years I don’t. Just depends on if I can take the extra expense.
I’ve not really noticed much of a difference either way in my vinyl pool. Ymmv.

Borates in pool - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[DonQ]

If you recently got the strips from tftestkits & have confirmed they are bad by checking your tap water give them a call/email & they will make it right. If you confirmed you were at 30 before you drained 2/3 of the water then you’re at around 10 now if no other borate products have been added. You could add 30ppm worth & be in the recommended range of effectiveness. As mentioned, borates aren’t an absolute necessity so just leaving it alone is fine too.
Keeping fc above minimum for your cya at all times
FC/CYA Levels
& keeping ph in the 7’s is paramount.
With your ta of the ph rise should be slower anyway.
There’s nothing super magical about borates, they are simply a “helping hand” if you will, for buffering ph rise & some people like/notice that they change the feel of the water, they are truly the last thing to worry with & are completely optional.
Some years I add/replenish borates, some years I don’t. Just depends on if I can take the extra expense.
I’ve not really noticed much of a difference either way in my vinyl pool. Ymmv.

Borates in pool - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

I received bad taylor borate strips from tftestkits, but they declined to replace them.

 

[generessler]

Note that adding borates as boric acid rather than borax avoids the problem of getting pH low in advance. People here (not me; I'm still on the fence re borates) have said Duda Diesel's products are good.

 

[midlifecrisis]

Note that adding borates as boric acid rather than borax avoids the problem of getting pH low in advance. People here (not me; I'm still on the fence re borates) have said Duda Diesel's products are good.

Simple curiosity being nosey, what has you on the fence?

 

[duraleigh]

I received bad taylor borate strips from tftestkits, but they declined to replace them.

Very surprising. What were the circumstances?

 

[Sarah and Nate]

I received bad taylor borate strips from tftestkits, but they declined to replace them.

Don,
Your order was from March of 2022 and the defective lot I recently received from Taylor Technologies was purchased in February 2023. As you told me, you had already thrown the strips away and could not supply any pictures of your strips. Additionally, your purchase no longer qualified for our one-year warranty on all products and you even said you did not need replacement as seen below.

 

[Lesley L]

Note that adding borates as boric acid rather than borax avoids the problem of getting pH low in advance. People here (not me; I'm still on the fence re borates) have said Duda Diesel's products are good.

Thank you, I have boric acid from Duda Diesel and will be adding it today!

 

[generessler]

Simple curiosity being nosey, what has you on the fence?

Just general aversion to adding dissolved solids that aren't actually needed for my pool. Pretty much "if it ain't broke..."