Borates - new smell?

[PianoMan4:]

So after reading many of the pages here about borates, I went ahead and added them to my pool this week - over the course of a few days I added the 9 boxes of 20-mule borax plus 2 jugs of muriatic acid based on recommendations from pool math to reach 50ppm borates. The final levels appear correct based on the borate test strips I bought. My other pool readings are good - pH ended up slightly higher after the process (started around 7.2, ended around 7.7) and alkalinity is a touch higher (ended around 110). All seems well overall. However, shortly after doing this, my wife asked about a small she noticed after being in the pool - could this be from the borates?

Also, some sites mention that when borates are in the pool the FC levels can be reduced slightly - this isn't in TFP's charts - is this the case? Recommendations?

Overall, I haven't noticed much difference. I believe the pool appears sparklier than it was and the water is clear - but then again, it's pretty much always clear as long as I test regularly and use liquid chlorine rather than pucks.
Thanks!

 

[Newdude]

some sites mention that when borates are in the pool the FC levels can be reduced slightly - this isn't in TFP's charts

Well then there you go.

Our charts or poolmath require you to think. They do not know if it's July in Arizona, or October in Toronto. You need to keep free and clear away from minimum and can dose accordingly however it achieves that mission.



You need :

Minimum FC +
Recent daily loss +
1 or 2 ppm wiggle room
-------------------------------------------
= target dose.

If you find the daily loss a little less after adding borates, then that's just great and you can aim a bit lower. But make sure you are still staying free and clear from minimum until the next dose time.

 

[PianoMan4:]

Thanks for a snarky answer the "also" question while completely ignoring the reason for the post. Always appreciate an insulting response...

Of course I'm doing my best to think through this which is why I read about borates for weeks before taking the plunge. Any borate pool smell wasn't mentioned anywhere in my pre-reading and searching for it the last couple days has only resulted in one stray article with a similar complaint to my wife's. Since it's hard to get borates out of a pool if they are the culprit, I wanted to try to get to the bottom of it.

And in case you believe I haven't been thinking about FC - here's the full article that recommendeds 7.5% of CYA without borates or 5.0% of CYA with borates that led to my "also" question. I'm trying to not push the FC too high, as it has a negative effect on swimwear, so staying near the bottom of the recommended range through daily testing is my strategy. 2.0 to 4.0 Free Chlorine May Not Work • Pool Chemistry Training Institute

Interestingly, the article also talks about the effect of pH on chlorine effectiveness, which I found interesting and had not read before. More chlorine is needed at higher pH levels - so going forward, if my pH is at the high end of the pool range I'm going to aim for the high end of the target FC range as well. Learned something new. So yes, thinking is assumed, thank you very much.

 

[Newdude]

Of course I'm doing my best to think through this

Well you're new. Most new people we meet either haven't grasped it yet, or are thinking it through still holding on to whatever methods brought them here. I was only looking out for you.

Any borate pool smell wasn't mentioned anywhere i

Can you describe the smell ? Was it unpleasant or did it smell like fabric softener / soap ?

 

[AUSpool]

I run borates and have never noticed a smell. A smell is normally associated with something that is volatile or can easily change into the gaseous state. Borate / boric acid have a low volatility. From here boric acid and borates are not thought to degrade or transform through photolysis, oxidation, or hydrolysis in the atmosphere.

Can it be a coincidence and something else is causing a smell?

 

[Saturn94]

Thanks for a snarky answer the "also" question while completely ignoring the reason for the post. Always appreciate an insulting response...

Of course I'm doing my best to think through this which is why I read about borates for weeks before taking the plunge. Any borate pool smell wasn't mentioned anywhere in my pre-reading and searching for it the last couple days has only resulted in one stray article with a similar complaint to my wife's. Since it's hard to get borates out of a pool if they are the culprit, I wanted to try to get to the bottom of it.

And in case you believe I haven't been thinking about FC - here's the full article that recommendeds 7.5% of CYA without borates or 5.0% of CYA with borates that led to my "also" question. I'm trying to not push the FC too high, as it has a negative effect on swimwear, so staying near the bottom of the recommended range through daily testing is my strategy. 2.0 to 4.0 Free Chlorine May Not Work • Pool Chemistry Training Institute

Interestingly, the article also talks about the effect of pH on chlorine effectiveness, which I found interesting and had not read before. More chlorine is needed at higher pH levels - so going forward, if my pH is at the high end of the pool range I'm going to aim for the high end of the target FC range as well. Learned something new. So yes, thinking is assumed, thank you very much.

Personally, I’ve never noticed a change in smell from adding borates. This is the first time I’ve heard a report of this.

I’ve also not noticed any difference in FC demand from adding borates. TFP FC recommended levels do not change with the addition of borates. My guess is the idea that borates may allow lower FC levels comes from borates having some effect on preventing algae growth. However, at recommended borate levels (30-50), the effect is insignificant.

I keep FC at about 10% of CYA (btw, we use a SWCG for chlorine). We’ve never had issues with this being harsh at all on suits or skin. I’ve been wearing the same suit for years in our pool with no sign of fading or damage from chlorine. Buffered with CYA, chlorine just isn’t as harsh as many fear.

Be careful about trying to keep FC close to minimum. Over the years I’ve seen so many posts where people end up with issues because they tried to stick close to minimum FC. I always recommend treating TFP’s “Target” FC range as the minimum. This gives some leeway should something unexpected happens that drives up FC demand. If it were up to me, I would eliminate the Minimum column as it gets so many into trouble.

My understanding about pH affecting chlorine effectiveness is that it’s only significant in the absence of CYA. With CYA added, the difference in effectiveness at different pH levels is insignificant at TFP recommended pH levels.

I hope something here helps.

 

[SoCalTFP]

Never read anything about borates impacting smell. My wife always smells things after I add chemicals, if she saw me dump 9 boxes and 2 jugs she’s probably think she can smell it down the street.

Maybe fill two glasses with tap water, adding a little borates to one. Have her smell both without telling her the difference, and tell you if either smell off. That’s what I’d do to rule out the smell.

Borates should have an impact on PH, and probably by relation FC. That said I think th impact is pretty small, something you’d notice over a season not in days.

 

[kimkats]

I am interested in knowing how long after you added chlorine to the pool was she in it and noticed the smell? Since you have been trending to the lower level for FC when you add chlorine it is "fighting" off any badies making it smell a bit. That is just one thought. OHHH and was she really sweaty when she got in? I know after I get good and sweaty working in the yard then jump in the pool I do smell *different* as it is the chlorine reacting to my sweat and such.

I do my best to stay away from the minimum for FC. I don't want to take any chances in having an algae bloom. It cost more to clear are bloom than it does to keep it from happening.

 

[PianoMan4:]

Thanks all for the posts and suggestions. I do wonder if the unpleasant smell was not the borates something else. I haven't noticed anything different, but I'm not as sensitive to it. (I definitely caught a wiff of the muriatic acid when adding it and a slight breeze caught some of it - that's strong stuff) When I added the borates she mentioned it smelled like laundry (and I can confirm that it had a slight smell then, but not after dissolving). It was later that evening that she mentioned the "bad" smell and said it was in her hair - and hair stuff is normally a chlorine thing. Based on historically trying to stay above minimum and be near the low end of the TFP target FC range, it could be that the chlorine was working. The pool has been clear the whole time with no visible algae. I rarely have any CC in tests - very occasionally it will be the slightest tinge of pink that goes away with 1 drop meaning less than 0.5 - and that's generally only if I skip a day of checking the pool. My CYA is currently around 50 and I've been using just liquid chlorine recently. Before TFP I had cloudy water occasionally when using trichlor pucks, but nothing this year - clear all season. This weekend we had a few family gatherings at our house so I went to the top of the recommended range or slightly above before those since the pool was going to be busy. I pour from the 10L yellow chlorine jugs, so "measuring" is not an exact science. Based on the higher pH after borates, it would have meant that there was slighltly less active chlorine (HOCl) in the pool at 7.7-7.8 pH than there was before at 7.2 pH, so that means the available chlorine was slightly lower and working harder. I don't have any borax left to try the 2 water glasses test. Could be sweat - that's a possibility. I'll ask her if she's noticed the unpleasant small again recently or not.

Overall - I don't know if I can tell the difference with or without borates. This is my test season. If we like it, I'll top it up next year. If not, I'll let it drift down over time. Last year I followed TFP (on the low end of recommendations) and the pool stayed clear pretty much all season. I've never needed to shock except my first season when I hadn't spent time here yet and it went cloudy a few times and once or twice slightly green. I've seen a dark green pool at a friends house, but haven't experienced that thankfully. I find it surprising that everyone talks about shocking all the time, yet there really isn't a need to if regular FC is kept in the target range - goes against the "narrative".

Apology for getting defensive earlier - stressful times - not your fault Newdude. Thanks again all for the advice.

 

[duraleigh]

Thanks for a snarky answer the "also" question while completely ignoring the reason for the post. Always appreciate an insulting response..

Newdude is one of our most helpful and accurate posters. That you took his help to be "snarky" is not a good reflection on you. In the future, please show politeness to the responders on this forum. You asked for help and it was given freely. Use it wisely.

.

 

[PianoMan4:]

Duraleigh, I'm apologizing that I was defensive. That doesn't change the fact that the beginning of his response was snarky. I didn't "take it" that way. Your name calling implied in your response is hardly polite and not a good reflection on you. Politeness goes both ways.

 

[Newdude]

That doesn't change the fact that the beginning of his response was snarky.

It highlighted your statement that *other* websites say something we don't. Then I added a smiley face to be attitude free about it. But it's ok. We got off on the wrong foot and have since found our way.

*resets clock so we can all move forward*

Based on the higher pH after borates, it would have meant that there was slighltly less active chlorine (HOCl) in the pool at 7.7-7.8 pH than there was before at 7.2 pH, so that means the available chlorine was slightly lower and working harder.

As said above, the off forum information doesn't account for your CYA. The industry does not recognize any relationship of CYA and treats it as a completely independent value.

Poolcare is rife with half truths or things that are technically true but yet irrelevant in pools. Such as salt water being corrosive and/or needing an anode. Except. Nobody has an ocean. They all have pools.

I find it surprising that everyone talks about shocking all the time, yet there really isn't a need to if regular FC is kept in the target range - goes against the "narrative".

Exactly. We go against the grain that doesn't work. The other way is being inattentive all week, and overcorrecting with shock at the end of the week. There are no promises of anything being sanitary between A and B. If they put just a little effort into it, it would solve all their problems.

 

[AUSpool]

And in case you believe I haven't been thinking about FC - here's the full article that recommendeds 7.5% of CYA without borates or 5.0% of CYA with borates that led to my "also" question. I'm trying to not push the FC too high, as it has a negative effect on swimwear, so staying near the bottom of the recommended range through daily testing is my strategy. 2.0 to 4.0 Free Chlorine May Not Work • Pool Chemistry Training Institute

Interestingly, the article also talks about the effect of pH on chlorine effectiveness, which I found interesting and had not read before. More chlorine is needed at higher pH levels - so going forward, if my pH is at the high end of the pool range I'm going to aim for the high end of the target FC range as well. Learned something new. So yes, thinking is assumed, thank you very much.

The Lowey article could do with some editing and is completely un-referenced. I would be interested to know why they think you can run a lower FC with borates, that idea is totally unsubstantiated.

pH affects the concentrations of hypochlorous acid and the hypochlorous ion where the acid is the effective sanitiser. There is nothing new about this and this is where the industry standards come from. However when stabiliser (CyA) is added the concentration of hypochlorous acid is influenced by CyA more then pH.

Based on the higher pH after borates, it would have meant that there was slighltly less active chlorine (HOCl) in the pool at 7.7-7.8 pH than there was before at 7.2 pH, so that means the available chlorine was slightly lower and working harder.

Thats not how it works. Chlorine doesn’t work harder it just gets used. With CyA, as long as you maintain the minimum ratio or above you will always have a safe, sanitary pool. Trying to run on the low side will invite trouble, particularly if you manually dose. Through summer I run my FC at 7ppm with my CyA at 70ppm and you wouldn’t know I had chlorine in the pool.

The greatest and measurable effect of borates is the rate of increase in pH. You still need to adjust your pH but less often and with CyA you can happily run with a pH of 7.8. With borates you use more acid when adjusting pH but that greater dose lasts a longer time - use poolmath for the correct dose with your current borate level filled in where required.

Be careful with the term clear. Clear is not interchangeable with algae free or sanitary, trust your testing.

 

[Saturn94]

Be careful with the term clear. Clear is not interchangeable with algae free or sanitary, trust your testing.

THIS!