Auto Cover costs-need advice on possible price gouging

[Suburbanjuls]

Hi all,
Well we were supposed to dig this week but now the entire project is on hold. This is our second pool but first after finding TFP. We had an auto cover on our first pool and for this build we wanted to get an auto cover on the raised spa as well. Pool builder would not break down the numbers but told us the price was about $39k for each(PB work plus auto covers). I had questioned several times that they would be the same price but they insisted the work was basically the same, so we decided to eliminate the spa cover. Once we were getting to the stage of selecting colors for the auto cover I noticed the cover company had two types of material on their website so I called to get more info and samples as PB has taken months to get other samples. Much to my surprise, they asked if they could provide me with a quote. I had no idea that I would be able to see pricing, as I thought they sold only to the trade. However, they do sell to individuals, and I was shocked when they sent me a quote for $18.5k for the pool cover and $10.5k for the spa cover. With the work the PB has to do, their quote of $39.5k seems outlandish and borderline criminal. I don't see how the portion of work that the PB has to do could possibly cost $21k for them to form the track for the cover, build the vault, plumbing, and supply electrical. PB will not break anything down for us as they say they operate on a bid base rather than cost plus.

When I brought this up to the PB two days ago, they were very surprised that I had found out what the covers cost from the manufacturer. They backtracked and stated that when they said(multiple times) that the spa and pool cover price was the same it was just an estimate and they were wrong to assume it was the same. We believe they are lying due to the many times we questioned them about this in order to keep their inflated markup. Also, they have done spa covers, as they showed us pics in their portfolio so they would have known the true cost of the spa cover was substantially different from the pool covers. Just a couple hours after I raised this issue, they gave us a price of $19.5k to do the spa cover, but are holding firm to the $39.5k for the pool cover. Now that I know the cost of the covers themselves, I cannot believe how the PB portion of the work is almost $9k for the spa and $21k for the pool.

Obviously, we can't directly compare former prices of even a few years ago to today's prices. Lots has changed, but when considering that we had our last pool built in 2016 in an area with the highest minimum wages in the US, I think we could possibly extrapolate the portion of pool company costs relative to auto cover cost. I have to find my old numbers to be exact, but the pool companies portion was only about 20% of the cost of the auto cover. The material for the cover was by far the most expensive part of the project. So I don't see how it is possible that the PB portion of the work could be anywhere close to the same, much less more than the cost of the auto cover itself. Or perhaps, we are massively out of touch with costs these days. I will say, we are building in a mountainous, expensive area. However, we have a flat area for the pool and there are no geographical obstacles that factor into the pool build. Our lot is easily accessible, and the plumbing, gas, and electrical supply is ideally positioned for the pool since we planned for that in our home build.

This whole situation seems fishy, and now we are very nervous because this PB is basically the only game in town with any kind of decent reputation for quality of build. We have already signed a contract with them, and do not feel like they are taking our concerns about their pricing and integrity seriously. We knew they were the most expensive builder, but had thought it was worth it due to them supposedly being the best. Now that we feel we have been lied to and misled, we are finding it very hard to justify their high prices. Our home is under construction as well, and we have asked our GC to put some pressure on them to provide us with fair pricing. PB is acting as a sub to GC, but don't know if our GC can pressure a sub to show them their costs on a bid type project. I also don't know what else they can do if they suspect a sub of price gouging their customer. We really wanted to get this pool done by the time the house is done so we can be done with a multi year giant stress ball and finally get on with our lives. I cannot emphasize how much of a mental and emotional toll this project has been and how much relief we felt when we thought we could get the pool done at the same time as the house. Even if we were able to get out of this contract and found another PB that we were comfortable with, we are close enough to our house being complete, that we wouldn't be able to start with another PB until after our house is done. We can't get a CO for the house with an incomplete pool. Starting a pool after we move in would also mean all of our hosting and visits and family milestones and events would be put on hold or eliminated due to being under construction still.

I would love it if anyone can share what prices they have paid or seen recently. I know sizes and locations vary, but really would like to see about the proportion of PB work relative to the price of the cover(plus motor, cables). It would help us see if we are well and truly being taken to the cleaners, or if perhaps this is in fact, like the PB insists, simply what it takes to do an auto cover these days.

Many thanks,
Juls

 

[Rocket J Squirrel]

Have you considered building your spa level with the pool? Mine is, so one auto-cover covers them both.

 

[Suburbanjuls]

Yes, we did consider this, but wanted the sheer descent water feature that is in the raised spa wall as well as the visual focal point of the raised spa. We also want the raised spa as a fun step off point into the pool for smaller kids. Now that we are on a hiatus, we may possibly look at re-design. However, we would also need to re-visit our landscape plan as that would make the pool longer in order to incorporate the spa. It isn't as simple as one may think and it would be a compromise for us in losing those aspects.

I appreciate the design suggestions, but we are really looking for feedback on the current pricing we are being told from the PB.

Thanks!

 

[ajw22]

You gave the answer in - this PB is basically the only game in town with any kind of decent reputation for quality of build.

It does not matter what a builder may be willing to do something for if they don't go to your location. All that matters is what builders who are willing to do your work quote you. Or you figure out how to DIY an Owner Build (OB) and do your own subcontracting as some folks here have done.

The pool builder understands the situation you are in as do you.

 

[JamesW]

I don't see how the portion of work that the PB has to do could possibly cost $21k for them to form the track for the cover, build the vault, plumbing, and supply electrical.

I suspect that you get paid fairly well; can you justify why you are worth what you get paid?

You can question the value of the work any professional like a doctor, lawyer, dentist etc.

Professionals can quote whatever they like and the customer can accept, decline or negotiate.

Can you explain why the work is not worth what they are asking?

What price do you think is a fair price?

 

[Bperry]

Yes, we did consider this, but wanted the sheer descent water feature that is in the raised spa wall as well as the visual focal point of the raised spa. We also want the raised spa as a fun step off point into the pool for smaller kids. Now that we are on a hiatus, we may possibly look at re-design. However, we would also need to re-visit our landscape plan as that would make the pool longer in order to incorporate the spa. It isn't as simple as one may think and it would be a compromise for us in losing those aspects.

I appreciate the design suggestions, but we are really looking for feedback on the current pricing we are being told from the PB.

Thanks!

Prices from other areas wouldn’t do you much good. I got prices that varied wildly (like $10k and $60k) for some pool work and it just depends on the company, how busy they are, etc. Some only do jobs above a certain amount, some have other reasons. The plaster guys I hired seemed to charge an outrageous amount for tiling but they did a good job.

Not trying to be obnoxious, but there’s really no such thing as price gouging on a pool, or at least illegal gouging. Maybe if this was toilet paper a couple years ago it’d be more understandable… Nothing you can do except cancel the auto cover and install one at a later date or just pay what they say they are charging.

I could buy a lot of manual bubble wraps covers for $39k.

 

[Suburbanjuls]

Nothing you can do except cancel the auto cover and install one at a later date

I didn't think auto covers could be installed later if you want the track to go under the coping. We're not interested in deck mounted tracks. We aren't allowed to do bubble wraps in our neighborhood(don't get me started about HOA's please) I wouldn't do them anyway as they are such a hassle to lift in and out and break down very quickly. They also do not provide safety for children, seniors, and dogs which will be regular fixtures at our home.

The high price is one issue, the other is that they were lying to us on multiple occasions about the price of the spa cover. Only when presented with my knowledge that the auto cover cost for pool and spa was drastically different and therefore the total price couldn't possibly be the same, did they back track and give the lower price for the spa cover. This has really made us question what else they are fudging. This, perhaps most of all is the biggest issue for us. We want to be able to trust someone that we are handing over boatloads of cash to. The PB did not reply to our concerns of trust and this will be a point we press when we speak again.

Unfortunately due to the holiday weekend, any further discussions with PB are put on hold until Tuesday next week. So I thought perhaps I could post the issue here and get feedback. So far, redesign to save money or pay up seems to be the general response. Perhaps that is a bit snarky of me to say, I'm just feeling quite jaded at this point. I guess I was hoping for feedback on the pricing issue as well as the trust issue.

 

[Bperry]

I didn't think auto covers could be installed later if you want the track to go under the coping. We're not interested in deck mounted tracks. We aren't allowed to do bubble wraps in our neighborhood(don't get me started about HOA's please) I wouldn't do them anyway as they are such a hassle to lift in and out and break down very quickly. They also do not provide safety for children, seniors, and dogs which will be regular fixtures at our home.

The high price is one issue, the other is that they were lying to us on multiple occasions about the price of the spa cover. Only when presented with my knowledge that the auto cover cost for pool and spa was drastically different and therefore the total price couldn't possibly be the same, did they back track and give the lower price for the spa cover. This has really made us question what else they are fudging. This, perhaps most of all is the biggest issue for us. We want to be able to trust someone that we are handing over boatloads of cash to. The PB did not reply to our concerns of trust and this will be a point we press when we speak again.

Unfortunately due to the holiday weekend, any further discussions with PB are put on hold until Tuesday next week. So I thought perhaps I could post the issue here and get feedback. So far, redesign to save money or pay up seems to be the general response. Perhaps that is a bit snarky of me to say, I'm just feeling quite jaded at this point. I guess I was hoping for feedback on the pricing issue as well as the trust issue.

Did they give you a written quote for the spa cover being the same as the pool? Are they changing the costs after a contract was signed?

 

[JamesW]

I don't see how the portion of work that the PB has to do could possibly cost $21k for them to form the track for the cover, build the vault, plumbing, and supply electrical.

There is a whole lot more to it than just what you see at your property.

They have a lot of expenses that they have to cover to operate including Design, Engineering, Architecture, Ordering parts, figuring out logistics, training employees to do the installation, figuring out the exact work process, parts, tools, supplies, equipment, materials etc.

And then they have to travel to your location and do the work.

In my opinion, you are vastly underestimating their costs and the value they provide assuming they do quality work.

It is a lot of hard work and it takes professional expertise.

If it was so simple, you could get anyone to do it.

At the end of the day, they need to decide what it is worth for them to do the work and you can accept, decline or negotiate.

You can counteroffer a number you feel is more acceptable to you and they can accept, decline or counteroffer.

Either you can meet at a mutually acceptable number or you can’t.

 

[JamesW]

Maybe I want this wedding band and I think that the price is too high; can I get angry with Tiffany’s about the price?

I don’t think that it is worth almost $21,000.00.

I think that the price is ridiculous, but I don’t have to buy it.

Can they justify the price?

Probably not, nor do they have to.

They can ask $1,000,000.00 or whatever; it’s a free market.

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If you sell a house, the selling agent and buying agent both get about 3%.

If the house is $1,000,000.00, they each get about $30,000.00.

Is that fair?

 

[Suburbanjuls]

Did they give you a written quote for the spa cover being the same as the pool? Are they changing the costs after a contract was signed?

When I first engaged with the PB, we paid $2500 for a design and quote. I received the line drawing design(no 3D), and the day it was given to me in my home the PB told me that the numbers weren't back yet, and they would give them to me as soon as they had them. A week or two later I got a phone call and was told that they were calling me to give the numbers to me as soon as they had them. It was then that I was told the entire project cost as well as the spa and pool covers were both $39k each. I was quite shocked and had many questions at the time regarding how that could actually be true. We had recently moved to NC, and we were in post lockdown panic pricing and supply issues so we put the project on hold as we hadn't even broken ground for the house at that time.

In the fall of 2023, we picked the project back up and again. I asked again about the auto covers to check if their pricing had changed since we last had spoken. I was told the auto covers were still $39k each. So we told them we would not do the auto cover on the spa. We got a written quote this time well before we got a pool drawing which in hindsight seems strange. We had a size(18x36) and shallow(4') and deep(7') end water depths specified in the contract, but no drawing associated. I only got the drawing of the pool two weeks ago and made another post about how to divvy up the deep and shallow parts of the pool.

Considering that we paid money for a design and quote, I do think it is very fishy that the PB is now claiming that they had only told me a ballpark estimate based on an assumption. This week when I presented PB with actual cover costs, their eyes bugged out and they stammered and said that they always just assumed spa covers were the same as pool covers bc that's what they had always heard. This is the same person who presents the "actual" numbers to each and every customer, so there's no way they operate only on heresay and rumor. They are the ones calling the vendors and giving clients the numbers. I know this person is in contact with the vendors, because the email I got 2 hrs after I had this convo referenced the date that I had called the auto cover vendor and gotten a quote from them. I had not told PB the date that I had called, so the only way they would have known is if they called the vendor to check up on what I had said.

Nevermind the fact that after I pushed on multiple occasions over 1.5 years of communication that they always repeated the same thing as fact. If it was just an assumption on their part, they never said so to me. If it was just an assumption on their part, why did they not check after being questioned so many times by myself about it? Why did it take so long to get to me if it was just an estimate and not a quote? All these questions and more are still unanswered.

I would love to have all this be kosher and to believe that the PB is honest. But the more I look into this issue the more squirrely it looks. I would love to go back in time and un-know what the auto covers cost. But I can't do that and the more I think about this the more problems I see. I am truly trying to reconcile in my mind how we can get a good quality build out of the PB that has raised so many questions and operated in this manner. Certainly some people are happy with their pools, but perhaps most people are happy to look away and hand out wads of cash without ever looking under the proverbial hood and questioning what they are getting for the price they are paying.

 

[Suburbanjuls]

Maybe I want this wedding band and I think that the price is too high; can I get angry with Tiffany’s about the price?

I don’t think that it is worth almost $21,000.00.

I think that the price is ridiculous, but I don’t have to buy it.

Can they justify the price?

Probably not, nor do they have to.

They can ask $1,000,000.00 or whatever; it’s a free market.
View attachment 561489

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If you sell a house, the selling agent and buying agent both get about 3%.

If the house is $1,000,000.00, they each get about $30,000.00.

Is that fair?

You've made your point about free market pricing. The issue is not simply that I am angry at the price the PB is charging. The issue of them outright lying to me and passing it off as a simple mistake is not one I take lightly. While I am fortunate to be in a position to afford a luxury item such as a pool, I do want to spend my dollars wisely. Handing over large amounts of money to someone who I feel is untrustworthy and I doubt their word is troubling and worth trying to ascertain if there is any basis in reality for what I am being told.

 

[ajw22]

Handing over large amounts of money to someone who I feel is untrustworthy and I doubt their word is troubling and worth trying to ascertain if there is any basis in reality for what I am being told.

Then find someone else who you would rather hand your money to.

We cannot help you that the pool builder did not deal with you the way you expected.

We can advise you to consider alternatives if you don't want to proceed with the builder.

Yes, it may be more trouble and that is the price for paying your money to someone you feel better about.

What are your priorities?

• Money?
• Getting your pool this season?
• Your feelings about the builder?

 

[JamesW]

The issues between you and the contractor are far too complicated to expect us to be much help.

If you don’t trust them, you can fire them and find a new company that you do trust.

Maybe set up an appointment with the owner to discuss how you feel and see if you can get the relationship back on track.

If the relationship is irreparable, then maybe you have to fire them and move on.

If you want them to continue, then you need to negotiate an agreement that has as much detail as possible so that there are no more misunderstandings.

As I see it, your choices are:

1) Pay what they are asking.

2) Fire them and move on.

3) Try to negotiate a deal that you can live with.

 

[JamesW]

Also, we are only getting your side of the story.

Maybe the builder has a completely different perception of what is happening and who is at fault for the relationship going bad.