Should the check valve be before the pump (as in the picture) or after the pump before the filter?
Another DIY Build
- Thread starter allybuck64
- Start date
The guys that gave me that quote use sand portland mix for base. I have 60 bags of vermiculite already. Is sand or vermiculite a better base to mix with portland?
allybuck64 said:
It's more personal preference than one being "better" than the other. I prefer the vermiculite mix - it's softer on the liner and allows water to pass through it. There are pros and cons to both. (I think there's a thread here with them listed - I'll check after I finish this post).
The sand- portland is much easier to trowel! But I still don't like it
You shouldn't force your installer to use what he's not used to or comfortable with, you'll end up with a bad floor
Let me go see if I can find that post
[edit] here - it took me longer, because I forgot that I was the author
My crew that was going to do the base pushed me back 2 weeks so I have two trusty brothers and a friend going to help me this weekend with the bottom. So my question is what is the best ratio of vermiculite portland and water to start with. I have found 1 4 cuft. Vermiculite 1/2 bag 96 lb bag portland and 10 gallons of water. Mix water and portland good then add vermiculite and mix for 30-45 sec. Sound about right? All done with a Mortor mixer
When laying it out start with hopper walls then work the slope in 3 strips going from deepend to shollow end break. Then work my way out of the pool.
When laying it out start with hopper walls then work the slope in 3 strips going from deepend to shollow end break. Then work my way out of the pool.
I can't help with the mix but don't take that task lightly. Unless some of you have some experience, you may find that job pretty tough to deal with. It's one of the very few things I subbed out and was very glad I did.
That said, my only troweling experience is with thinset mortar and regular concrete.
That said, my only troweling experience is with thinset mortar and regular concrete.
I have heard how crucial it is to get correct and plan on taking our time. We all have lots of experience using a trowel but never in a pool.
Hi, 1 bag vermiculite (16 - 20 lbs) to 1/2 bag portland cement (~ 45 lbs) and ~ 12 gallons of water should give you a workable mix. What you want is to be able to take a handful of the mix and have the water dribble between your fingers when you squeeze it hard.
If you don't already know:
When troweling the verm., use a wood float to pack it down and get it ~ smooth. Then use a metal trowel to finish it. You DO NOT WANT to work up the 'cream' (like you do with concrete) The finish should more closely resemble a corkboard.
Unless any of your 'crew' is familiar with troweling vermiculite - I hope you'd contact me before you pour the floor! :-D
Also, we always did the shallow end, then the sidewalls and transition slope (side walls done before the adjoining area of slope) and left the bottom of the hopper for last. We used a ladder to get out of the pool and finished the last part of the hopper the next day (or used a 'foam board').
I really feel I should give you a full primer on preparing and troweling a vermiculite bottom (and I will, if you ask - I'll also copy it and make it installment #8 in my "DIY Liner Pool" series )
If you don't already know:
When troweling the verm., use a wood float to pack it down and get it ~ smooth. Then use a metal trowel to finish it. You DO NOT WANT to work up the 'cream' (like you do with concrete)
The finish should more closely resemble a corkboard.Unless any of your 'crew' is familiar with troweling vermiculite - I hope you'd contact me before you pour the floor! :-D
Also, we always did the shallow end, then the sidewalls and transition slope (side walls done before the adjoining area of slope) and left the bottom of the hopper for last. We used a ladder to get out of the pool and finished the last part of the hopper the next day (or used a 'foam board').
I really feel I should give you a full primer on preparing and troweling a vermiculite bottom (and I will, if you ask - I'll also copy it and make it installment #8 in my "DIY Liner Pool" series
)If you would the info you give is very helpful. I will need all the tricks of the trade you are willing to share.
Thanks ab64
Thanks ab64
waste said:Hi, 1 bag vermiculite (16 - 20 lbs) to 1/2 bag portland cement (~ 45 lbs) and ~ 12 gallons of water should give you a workable mix. What you want is to be able to take a handful of the mix and have the water dribble between your fingers when you squeeze it hard.
If you don't already know:
When troweling the verm., use a wood float to pack it down and get it ~ smooth. Then use a metal trowel to finish it. You DO NOT WANT to work up the 'cream' (like you do with concrete)
Unless any of your 'crew' is familiar with troweling vermiculite - I hope you'd contact me before you pour the floor! :-D
Also, we always did the shallow end, then the sidewalls and transition slope (side walls done before the adjoining area of slope) and left the bottom of the hopper for last. We used a ladder to get out of the pool and finished the last part of the hopper the next day (or used a 'foam board').
I really feel I should give you a full primer on preparing and troweling a vermiculite bottom (and I will, if you ask - I'll also copy it and make it installment #8 in my "DIY Liner Pool" series
A couple years later, I know y’all can’t wait for part 8 LOL
THIS IS IMPORTANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you already have the liner, you MUST!!!! Follow their floor layout, so the liner fits in correctly. If you are waiting to order the liner, be sure to be able to tell the manufacturer how you made the floor – so keep notes or make up a print of how you laid the floor!!!!!!!!!!!!!
For a vermiculite bottom, you want at least 2†of the verm mix throughout the bottom! To save $ on vermiculite and cement, the dirt floor should be shaped so that it’s 2†below the finished vermiculite grade. If you have voids, fill them in with gravel, if you have soft spots, scoop out the slop and fill them in and compact them! To assist in the shaping, put rebar pins at every transition point and, again, run strings. You can use the bottom of the panels to get your grades (just remember that the bottom of the panels are 2†below the finished vermiculite grade!) Use the walls to do your measuring – if you have a 14’ slope into a *’ deep hopper, measure 14’ along the panels and install a pin on each side. Then run a string between the 2 pins, tied at the bottom of the panels and measure out the 4’ from the wall and drop a plumb bob to install the first 2 pins that define your hopper. Use the panels to help define your transition points, then use strings to insure that the floor is ~ perfectly matched to the liner you’ll soon be installing.
Once all the floor pins are installed, tie a string to the pins at finished grade (use a tape measure off the wall strings to get the finished grade) – you’ll end up with a continuous string defining the slope/ sidewall transition and defining the hopper and wall corners, that is at finished grade (i.e. 2†above the dirt floor.) Mark the panels, with a magic marker, 2†up from the bottom all around the pool (this gives you a mark to trowel to) and then you can hold a new piece of string between any other strings or the mark on the wall to make sure your grade is good ïŠ
OK, now your floor is strung out and ready for you to apply the vermiculite.
MIXING VERMICULITE:
The recipe is 1 bag verm (16 – 20 lbs. / bag) with ½ bag (~42 lbs.) Portland cement (type I or II) and ~ 12 gallons water. The amount of water can vary depending on the weather (heat and humidity), how quickly you are able to lay down the mixes, whether the bags of verm are wet and if the floor, where you’re dumping the mix in the pool, is dry or wet.
Once the verm is mixed, you want to be able to take a handful of it and squeeze a little water out of it – you DO NOT want ‘oatmeal’.
If you’re using a mechanical mixer, add the water, then the ½ bag of cement. Then, as quickly as possible, add the bag of vermiculite. Once the vermiculite is in the mixer, turn the drum to ~ horizontal without it spilling out. Once the ingredients are mixed, dump the drum into a wheelbarrow and take it to the pool – if you leave the mix in the drum too long, you’ll end up with ‘cannonballs’ which are a PITA to try and trowel and will adversely effect the final finish!!!
TIP** if you have unfilled voids in the wall, shovel the first ‘trial mixes’ into them – once the person mixing gets the ratio of water correct, all they have to do is repeat it (50+ times) Using a large trash can to dip a 5 gal. bucket into is very efficient – the mixer dips the bucket in 2X and then ~ 1/3 – you can use a magic marker to make a line on the bucket for the 3rd dip, once you’ve got the mix down.
You need a couple preselected areas to dump the fruits of the mixer. If you haven’t already backfilled the pool, run a plank from the existing ground to the pool in those places (tip* shovel dirt at the end of the plank to make it easier to wheel onto) Keep in mind that you’ll eventually be finishing the floor there and plan appropriately. Also remember that you’ll be shoveling this stuff to where it’s gonna be put down, try not to ‘kill’ anyone with a huge haul from dump spot to finishing area BTW – it’s considered poor form to drop a wheelbarrow on the folks in the pool!
Coal shovels or big snowshovels are nice for moving a decent amount to the toweling area. I wish I could put in words the way to properly shovel for a finisher, but it’s something the troweler and the shoveler have to work out.
Keep rocks and dirt out of the finished product!!
(I might be willing to give some tips on troweling, but you gotta ask for that LOL)
We always worked our way from the shallow end to the deep. When doing the slopes and sidewalls, the sidewalls were done BEFORE the slope floor – whoever was doing the floor part matched up to the wall. This doesn’t mean that you have to have the sidewalls all completed before the slope was applied, just to do it in sections, with the wall part done first.
As this is your first time, it’s gonna take a LOT longer than the pros. Take it slow and steady! What we could do in a day might take you 2+ days, DON’T RUSH IT!!!!! This is your floor and you’ll have to live with it for years, so a day or a few hours extra now, making sure that it’s ~ perfect, are more than worth it!
Eventually, you’ll end up troweling yourself into a corner. Not a problem, do a day’s worth of bottom and then, if you’ve made it to the deep end bottom, use a ladder to get out. Tommorrow, you’ll be finishing up and you still have to pull the pins you ran the strings on and patch those holes. Not to mention, you have to sweep the floor at least 3X before you’re ready to drop the liner, after all the verm has set up. As you’re sweeping, you’ll see places that need a little touch-up.
This is about as complete as I can make it for now. I’m always looking for questions and feedback on this stuff!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is what I came up with this pm. I'll give you a call and talk about more specific things for your Mt. Lake floor/ pool.
THIS IS IMPORTANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you already have the liner, you MUST!!!! Follow their floor layout, so the liner fits in correctly. If you are waiting to order the liner, be sure to be able to tell the manufacturer how you made the floor – so keep notes or make up a print of how you laid the floor!!!!!!!!!!!!!
For a vermiculite bottom, you want at least 2†of the verm mix throughout the bottom! To save $ on vermiculite and cement, the dirt floor should be shaped so that it’s 2†below the finished vermiculite grade. If you have voids, fill them in with gravel, if you have soft spots, scoop out the slop and fill them in and compact them! To assist in the shaping, put rebar pins at every transition point and, again, run strings. You can use the bottom of the panels to get your grades (just remember that the bottom of the panels are 2†below the finished vermiculite grade!) Use the walls to do your measuring – if you have a 14’ slope into a *’ deep hopper, measure 14’ along the panels and install a pin on each side. Then run a string between the 2 pins, tied at the bottom of the panels and measure out the 4’ from the wall and drop a plumb bob to install the first 2 pins that define your hopper. Use the panels to help define your transition points, then use strings to insure that the floor is ~ perfectly matched to the liner you’ll soon be installing.
Once all the floor pins are installed, tie a string to the pins at finished grade (use a tape measure off the wall strings to get the finished grade) – you’ll end up with a continuous string defining the slope/ sidewall transition and defining the hopper and wall corners, that is at finished grade (i.e. 2†above the dirt floor.) Mark the panels, with a magic marker, 2†up from the bottom all around the pool (this gives you a mark to trowel to) and then you can hold a new piece of string between any other strings or the mark on the wall to make sure your grade is good ïŠ
OK, now your floor is strung out and ready for you to apply the vermiculite.
MIXING VERMICULITE:
The recipe is 1 bag verm (16 – 20 lbs. / bag) with ½ bag (~42 lbs.) Portland cement (type I or II) and ~ 12 gallons water. The amount of water can vary depending on the weather (heat and humidity), how quickly you are able to lay down the mixes, whether the bags of verm are wet and if the floor, where you’re dumping the mix in the pool, is dry or wet.
Once the verm is mixed, you want to be able to take a handful of it and squeeze a little water out of it – you DO NOT want ‘oatmeal’.
If you’re using a mechanical mixer, add the water, then the ½ bag of cement. Then, as quickly as possible, add the bag of vermiculite. Once the vermiculite is in the mixer, turn the drum to ~ horizontal without it spilling out. Once the ingredients are mixed, dump the drum into a wheelbarrow and take it to the pool – if you leave the mix in the drum too long, you’ll end up with ‘cannonballs’ which are a PITA to try and trowel and will adversely effect the final finish!!!
TIP** if you have unfilled voids in the wall, shovel the first ‘trial mixes’ into them – once the person mixing gets the ratio of water correct, all they have to do is repeat it (50+ times) Using a large trash can to dip a 5 gal. bucket into is very efficient – the mixer dips the bucket in 2X and then ~ 1/3 – you can use a magic marker to make a line on the bucket for the 3rd dip, once you’ve got the mix down.
You need a couple preselected areas to dump the fruits of the mixer. If you haven’t already backfilled the pool, run a plank from the existing ground to the pool in those places (tip* shovel dirt at the end of the plank to make it easier to wheel onto) Keep in mind that you’ll eventually be finishing the floor there and plan appropriately. Also remember that you’ll be shoveling this stuff to where it’s gonna be put down, try not to ‘kill’ anyone with a huge haul from dump spot to finishing area
BTW – it’s considered poor form to drop a wheelbarrow on the folks in the pool!Coal shovels or big snowshovels are nice for moving a decent amount to the toweling area. I wish I could put in words the way to properly shovel for a finisher, but it’s something the troweler and the shoveler have to work out.
Keep rocks and dirt out of the finished product!!
(I might be willing to give some tips on troweling, but you gotta ask for that LOL)
We always worked our way from the shallow end to the deep. When doing the slopes and sidewalls, the sidewalls were done BEFORE the slope floor – whoever was doing the floor part matched up to the wall. This doesn’t mean that you have to have the sidewalls all completed before the slope was applied, just to do it in sections, with the wall part done first.
As this is your first time, it’s gonna take a LOT longer than the pros. Take it slow and steady! What we could do in a day might take you 2+ days, DON’T RUSH IT!!!!! This is your floor and you’ll have to live with it for years, so a day or a few hours extra now, making sure that it’s ~ perfect, are more than worth it!
Eventually, you’ll end up troweling yourself into a corner. Not a problem, do a day’s worth of bottom and then, if you’ve made it to the deep end bottom, use a ladder to get out. Tommorrow, you’ll be finishing up and you still have to pull the pins you ran the strings on and patch those holes. Not to mention, you have to sweep the floor at least 3X before you’re ready to drop the liner, after all the verm has set up. As you’re sweeping, you’ll see places that need a little touch-up.
This is about as complete as I can make it for now. I’m always looking for questions and feedback on this stuff!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is what I came up with this pm. I'll give you a call and talk about more specific things for your Mt. Lake floor/ pool.
Awsome post thanks for the advice from you and others thus far. Its good to know there are still good people in this world that are willing to give of there time, to help out a stranger. Thank you all and I will post pictures of the spider web floor from all the strings I am running.
Buck
Buck
Nice post, Ted. I think it clearly conveys the complexity of this job. It also describes how experience is such a great helper. You simply don't know what the "right" mix feels like until you've troweled it in several times.
This gives people contemplating this job a good feel for what's involved and then they can decide if they are up to it. Very nice work! :-D
This gives people contemplating this job a good feel for what's involved and then they can decide if they are up to it. Very nice work! :-D
I spoke with Ted for a bit and received some wisdom on this phase. I will make sure that I follow up with my take. I would consider myself and the guys who will be helping me very experienced in home construction. But have never done or worked with this kind of project. My brother who will be on the mixer did work for a mason and mixed morter for him.
Update on progress. Wow putting the bottom in is alot of work. The mixer we rented had issue so we didn't get as much done as I hoped. I am now a one man show working under lights from 6 pm until 1 am. Progress is slow but chugging along. Has any one ever used gorilla pad or similar product under inground pool liner? Will it help hide minor imperfections? With 2 lights I know my kids will want them on alot and I don't want to cringe looking at the bottom. Can you install it on the deep end floor and slope or is only for shallow end? Will wall foam work as well on bottom taped up at weans
Glad it's progressing 
I never had success foaming the floor The trouble is securing it without wrinkles, and you will be walking down the slope to cut in the drains once there's ~ 6" of water in the pool. (I guess it's about time for me to do Part 9 "Dropping the Liner" - give me a day or 2 to work on it)
If you need any further help from me, just give a holler :-D
I never had success foaming the floor
The trouble is securing it without wrinkles, and you will be walking down the slope to cut in the drains once there's ~ 6" of water in the pool. (I guess it's about time for me to do Part 9 "Dropping the Liner" - give me a day or 2 to work on it)If you need any further help from me, just give a holler :-D
Waste are the wrinkles your refering to in the liner or the pad itself. I talked to the people at happy bottom and they said to put there blue spray adhesive on the under side of the pad to keep it from sliding around when moving the liner into place.
The foam tends to wrinkle which, in turn, makes the liner wrinkle.
I don't know anything about Happy Bottom, but wall foam doesn't stick to vermiculite very well, especially if your yard tends to flood the foam will float and crease
I don't know anything about Happy Bottom, but wall foam doesn't stick to vermiculite very well, especially if your yard tends to flood the foam will float and crease
I have been MIA sorry, busy busy busy putting in the bottom 5 gallon buckets at a time. I am putting in the liner this weekend and need a bit of input. The walls have a couple of low spots that I want to put more concrete on to make it smoother. Whats is the best way, I tried using a mix but when it float it out there are ridges along the edges. Is this just how it has to be or Is there a better way.
Also Waste did you do the write up about the liner install?
Also Waste did you do the write up about the liner install?
Buck, I'm working on the liner drop info (typical me, it's gonna be 2 parts - prep and then the drop )
For patching/ filling voids/ matching up to existing grade - mix the verm in a 5 gal bucket and go a little heavy with the cement and the water, this makes it easier to blend into the existing floor. (this will be covered in part 9) (busy week for me, there's a fair chance I won't finish the 2 articles before you're ready to drop your liner - you have my phone #, use it if you have questions :-D )
)For patching/ filling voids/ matching up to existing grade - mix the verm in a 5 gal bucket and go a little heavy with the cement and the water, this makes it easier to blend into the existing floor. (this will be covered in part 9) (busy week for me, there's a fair chance I won't finish the 2 articles before you're ready to drop your liner
- you have my phone #, use it if you have questions :-D )