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Thread: Adding Spa and already confused!!!

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    Adding Spa and already confused!!!

    Hello there,

    A week ago I knew nothign about inground spa's except using it here and there. I have read a lot in a week and being a detail oriented guy it is getting difficult to make a decicion. Here what I have and what I want to do.

    I have an existing pool and adding a kidney shape spa raised 18" above ground, which PB promis to get me 5' x 7' clear water at the bottom with 17" bench. Originaly I wanted 6-7 jets per his discretion but reading a lot I decided to get Waterway Poly Storm Thread-in Gunite Jets ( I"m hoping this is a good choice?). I have 1.5 HP motor and DE filter and PB says it is enough but I dont think so and he is open to add another motor for the SPA. He is going to put 1.5 horse power air blower. He uses 2" pipe run from equipent to the SPA (50').

    Now I want to add 7" Standard Seat Gunite 3-Jet Main fold to the so to tal would be 9 jets. I also considering to add two at-least 50 GPM foot jets in the bottom of SPA and according to the guy who posted this recomenddation in some forum back in 2005 and cant be contacted now for advice.... it has to run straight from the back of the spa to the jets and on a seprate high -flow watefall pump ( not high head). His quote " it is indescribable what it's like laying in your spa and being effortlessly supported by twojets that are massaging your back while you just float there supported by the jets". I guess now I confused everone ha>?

    My Questions

    1. What size motor should I add for the jets only to not regret later.? or should I add at all.
    2. Any advice on high flow waterfall pump? HP? and plumbing.
    3. Is two foot jet option a good idea or not.

    I really appreciate your input on this as escavtion and some rebar and plumbing is done already. Thank you in advacne really !
    15K Kidney shape plaster gunite pool, 1.5HP Pentair Whisperflo WFE-6, DE 4820 filter, Hayward 400K BTU NG heater, 9 x 7.5 Raised Spa, 7 Waterway Jets _ One 3 main fold jet by Waterway Plastics (total 9 jets), Spa-Pentair 2HP Whisperflo WFE-8 jet pump, 12 V Hayward Universal Core Logic Pool Light for Spa, Intermatic Sub Panel.

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: Adding Spa and already confused!!!

    A single 2" pipe is probably not going to be sufficient no matter what pump you put on the jets. A proper spa design is critical to having strong jets. Here are the steps in designing a spa.

    1) Determine the number of jets you would like to have for the spa.

    2) Determine the flow rate requirement of each jet type (they can be different).

    3) Design the spa plumbing and pipe size so the water velocity within each pipe does not exceed 6 ft/sec.

    4) Determine the pump size required to deliver the flow rate required by the jets.

    I have a few more details on to design a spa in the hydraulics 101 sticky below.

    WARNING. Most PBs have no clue how to design a spa so don't rely on their advice.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Adding Spa and already confused!!!

    That single 2" pipe on the picture that runs acrooss the spa is my pool return which will be relocated. I have seen this PB work and kinda going with his designe. I see five 2" pipes right before the spa wall and PB told me he is going to put two suction and two returns one for jets one for spa. I will try to determine the steps from hydraulics 101. I dont know if I would have success. Thank you anyway
    15K Kidney shape plaster gunite pool, 1.5HP Pentair Whisperflo WFE-6, DE 4820 filter, Hayward 400K BTU NG heater, 9 x 7.5 Raised Spa, 7 Waterway Jets _ One 3 main fold jet by Waterway Plastics (total 9 jets), Spa-Pentair 2HP Whisperflo WFE-8 jet pump, 12 V Hayward Universal Core Logic Pool Light for Spa, Intermatic Sub Panel.

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: Adding Spa and already confused!!!

    If you can get the info for 1 and 2, I can help with the rest.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Adding Spa and already confused!!!

    I think I can do that.

    1. 7 Waterway thread in gunite jets from which 6 single and one 3-Jet Main fold (diagram below) . For some reason I consider this 3-Jet Main fold as one. If I'm wrong then it would be 9 jets
    2. Per Waterway web site these jets are designed for 10gpm
    3. Two Foot jets on the bottom. This is still optional because it was recommended to run on the separate waterfall pump with at least 50 gpm jets and I don't know what would be the cost of high flow waterfall pump.

    Hope this helps Thank you

    waterway_3_jet_manifold_7in_deep_seat_gunite_210_3420g.jpg
    15K Kidney shape plaster gunite pool, 1.5HP Pentair Whisperflo WFE-6, DE 4820 filter, Hayward 400K BTU NG heater, 9 x 7.5 Raised Spa, 7 Waterway Jets _ One 3 main fold jet by Waterway Plastics (total 9 jets), Spa-Pentair 2HP Whisperflo WFE-8 jet pump, 12 V Hayward Universal Core Logic Pool Light for Spa, Intermatic Sub Panel.

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    Re: Adding Spa and already confused!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by mas985 View Post
    If you can get the info for 1 and 2, I can help with the rest.
    I think I can do that.

    1. 7 Waterway thread in gunite jets from which 6 single and one 3-Jet Main fold (diagram below) . For some reason I consider this 3-Jet Main fold as one. If I'm wrong then it would be 9 jets
    2. Per Waterway web site these jets are designed for 10gpm
    3. Two Foot jets on the bottom. This is still optional because it was recommended to run on the separate waterfall pump with at least 50 gpm jets and I don't know what would be the cost of high flow waterfall pump.

    I did checked the Hydraulic 101 and came up with this:

    Jet Design: 9 x 3/8" Jets @ 10 GPM/Jet Waterway Poly Storm
    Total Flow Rate = 90 GPM
    Minimum Recommended Pipe Size = 2.5" ? What about 2 "

    If I use my exiting 1.5 HP pump for spa and get eco pump for the pool would that work better ?

    Thank you in advance
    15K Kidney shape plaster gunite pool, 1.5HP Pentair Whisperflo WFE-6, DE 4820 filter, Hayward 400K BTU NG heater, 9 x 7.5 Raised Spa, 7 Waterway Jets _ One 3 main fold jet by Waterway Plastics (total 9 jets), Spa-Pentair 2HP Whisperflo WFE-8 jet pump, 12 V Hayward Universal Core Logic Pool Light for Spa, Intermatic Sub Panel.

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: Adding Spa and already confused!!!

    I am not entirely sure how the PB is planning to plumb the spa but I would go with with at least 2.5" pipe even if he splits the spa jets.

    Is your pump the full rated (WFE-6) or up rated (WF-26) pump?

    Either way, the pump might be a little on the small side for 90 GPM with spa jets. Jets have quite a bit of head loss.

    Also, the fact that the PB is using a blower tells me he doesn't know how to design a spa. If designed properly, it shouldn't need a blower. The venturi air pipe should have a Hartford loop at the spa so the air pipe does not fill with water. Many PBs skip this step which is why they need a blower. Also, you want the air pipe to be at least 2.5" so there is little to no air friction.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Adding Spa and already confused!!!

    I going to insist on 2.5" pipes on return and suction. This morning he was saying ok only may be suction line 2.5". My pump is (WFE-6). I decided to install a 2nd pump not sure what type but at least I think 2HP would get me enough for 90 GPM jets. Is my choice good for going Waterways Poly storm jet.? He was originaly going to use tee body assembly for the jets and Waterway tee body is 2" water socet and 1,5" air Socket. Also i though air blower is substitue for venturi air because of air sucking noise.? I'm not sure here.
    15K Kidney shape plaster gunite pool, 1.5HP Pentair Whisperflo WFE-6, DE 4820 filter, Hayward 400K BTU NG heater, 9 x 7.5 Raised Spa, 7 Waterway Jets _ One 3 main fold jet by Waterway Plastics (total 9 jets), Spa-Pentair 2HP Whisperflo WFE-8 jet pump, 12 V Hayward Universal Core Logic Pool Light for Spa, Intermatic Sub Panel.

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    Re: Adding Spa and already confused!!!

    Also i though air blower is substitue for venturi air because of air sucking noise.? I'm not sure here.
    No. Spa jets always use a venturi tee that mixes air and water. The blower is just to clear the air line of water because of a poor design.

    You can see the tees used in this document: Poly Storm
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Adding Spa and already confused!!!

    Now I understand. I just found one of your old posts from other site that suggest no blower if you can put a air pipe within 15' of the spa. My equipment is 40' a way so I guess I would need a blower right.?
    "
    mas985All spas have venturi jets. That's what makes the bubbles.
    The reason you need a blower is because of the distance of the air pipe to the spa. If you put the air pipe within 15' of the spa, you shouldn't need a blower."
    15K Kidney shape plaster gunite pool, 1.5HP Pentair Whisperflo WFE-6, DE 4820 filter, Hayward 400K BTU NG heater, 9 x 7.5 Raised Spa, 7 Waterway Jets _ One 3 main fold jet by Waterway Plastics (total 9 jets), Spa-Pentair 2HP Whisperflo WFE-8 jet pump, 12 V Hayward Universal Core Logic Pool Light for Spa, Intermatic Sub Panel.

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: Adding Spa and already confused!!!

    You may not need a blower even at 40'. One PB I know had a spa 100' from the pump and it still worked without a blower. You just need to follow a few simple rules.

    Minimize number of bends in air pipe

    Maximize air pipe size (2.5" should be ok)

    Use a Hartford loop for the air pipe at the spa

    Follow these rules, and you may not need a blower.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Adding Spa and already confused!!!

    I found this on the internet. In this installation guide there is a blower so your suggestion would be this without a blower right.? I will talk to PB as well as will show this and see if he can figure this out


    2223_0001.pdf
    15K Kidney shape plaster gunite pool, 1.5HP Pentair Whisperflo WFE-6, DE 4820 filter, Hayward 400K BTU NG heater, 9 x 7.5 Raised Spa, 7 Waterway Jets _ One 3 main fold jet by Waterway Plastics (total 9 jets), Spa-Pentair 2HP Whisperflo WFE-8 jet pump, 12 V Hayward Universal Core Logic Pool Light for Spa, Intermatic Sub Panel.

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    Re: Adding Spa and already confused!!!

    Yes, it is possible to design a spa without a blower. However, you can always add one if needed.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Adding Spa and already confused!!!

    Thank you again! We have agreed on 2.5 both ways already. I will post some pictures as the constuction goes and may be more questions
    15K Kidney shape plaster gunite pool, 1.5HP Pentair Whisperflo WFE-6, DE 4820 filter, Hayward 400K BTU NG heater, 9 x 7.5 Raised Spa, 7 Waterway Jets _ One 3 main fold jet by Waterway Plastics (total 9 jets), Spa-Pentair 2HP Whisperflo WFE-8 jet pump, 12 V Hayward Universal Core Logic Pool Light for Spa, Intermatic Sub Panel.

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    Re: Adding Spa and already confused!!!

    I decided to install two foot jets at the bottom of the spa straight run from the spa back to the jets ( I really like this idea ). My PB put 1" pipe and told me 0.250 hp high flow waterfall pump would be enough for this option. I want these two jets run as fountain in the spa (see the picture below) with only couple of inches above the water line. Water line we agreed to be 36"-38". With this option Iím looking 3 pumps. (Looking to get 2hp for 6 jets split , existing 1.5 hP for circulation and 3-jet main fold from waterway. Please help me here to get the best combination that would work the best on this set up. I donít even mind getting one of those Intelliflo 8 speed pumps if necessary for the better outcome.

    Here is my set up: 6 single jets, one 3-jet manifold and 2 footjet / fountain like. I also noticed that PB only replaced one suciton 2" pipe with 2.5" and added 2.5" return for spa. I wll post pictures tomorrow as they are working on the jets plumbing setup. Thank you again for all your help. I really mean it. I know that I end up with a PB that hasn't excelled in spa plumbing design yet.


    1. Would 1Ē pipe and 0.250 HP high flow waterfall pump support my intention. ?
    15K Kidney shape plaster gunite pool, 1.5HP Pentair Whisperflo WFE-6, DE 4820 filter, Hayward 400K BTU NG heater, 9 x 7.5 Raised Spa, 7 Waterway Jets _ One 3 main fold jet by Waterway Plastics (total 9 jets), Spa-Pentair 2HP Whisperflo WFE-8 jet pump, 12 V Hayward Universal Core Logic Pool Light for Spa, Intermatic Sub Panel.

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: Adding Spa and already confused!!!

    You won't get a fountain look unless the pipe is near water level. At floor level, it would take a tremendous amount of pressure and flow rate to get that look. Especially since only 1" pipe is used. That will not allow much in flow rate from a waterfall pump. Waterfall pumps are very low head pumps and are meant to work with very large low head loss pipe.

    But specifying a pump by just HP is meaningless. I would need to know the actual make and model for each of the pumps.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Adding Spa and already confused!!!

    Hi Mark,

    I came accross after some researching to this pump which is highflow. Will this pump do the trick along with 2" pipe. Thank you

    Hayward TriStar Waterfall 75GPM.

    Attached Images Attached Images
    15K Kidney shape plaster gunite pool, 1.5HP Pentair Whisperflo WFE-6, DE 4820 filter, Hayward 400K BTU NG heater, 9 x 7.5 Raised Spa, 7 Waterway Jets _ One 3 main fold jet by Waterway Plastics (total 9 jets), Spa-Pentair 2HP Whisperflo WFE-8 jet pump, 12 V Hayward Universal Core Logic Pool Light for Spa, Intermatic Sub Panel.

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    Re: Adding Spa and already confused!!!

    It depends on the exact plumbing layout. You mentioned before you had 1" pipe. What are the lengths of pipes and size of pipes from the spa to the pump and back again?

    But again, you won't get a fountain. The configuration for a fountain is much different that a spa floor jet.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Adding Spa and already confused!!!

    I think now I understand. I’m really sorry about the confusion. The original idea that I got was not indicating fountain instead the quote was "one or two foot jets at least 50 GPM, straight run on a separate high flow waterfall pump. It is indescribable what it's like laying in your spa and being effortlessly supported by two jets that are massaging your back while you just float there supported by the jets". It was my imagination that these two jets could go out of the water level a bit and look like a fountain ( previous picture I attached). Now that you said configuration is different then I guess I would consider foot jet idea only. My PB suggest to run one direct flow (no jets) 1" pipe for the fountain idea and he insist it will go over the water level a bit with 1/2 HP pump. For foot jets he put (not covered yet) 1 " pipes.

    Here is the update. Now I have two suction lines each split on two on the floor. One Suction is 2.5" pipe , 2nd one 2" . One return 2.5 " and 2nd return 2". All pipes are approx. at 35 feet from the spa to the pumps. Spa will have circulation with spill over the pool and separate circulation only for the spa with no spill over. 6 single jets will run on a separate 2hp pump, 3 jet main fold will run with existing 1.5 HP circulation pump with valve control and still don’t know about the foot jets pump. Any suggestions to have 2 pumps instead of 3 ?.

    Thank you
    15K Kidney shape plaster gunite pool, 1.5HP Pentair Whisperflo WFE-6, DE 4820 filter, Hayward 400K BTU NG heater, 9 x 7.5 Raised Spa, 7 Waterway Jets _ One 3 main fold jet by Waterway Plastics (total 9 jets), Spa-Pentair 2HP Whisperflo WFE-8 jet pump, 12 V Hayward Universal Core Logic Pool Light for Spa, Intermatic Sub Panel.

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    Re: Adding Spa and already confused!!!

    I think now I understand. Iím really sorry about the confusion. The original idea that I got was not indicating fountain instead the quote was "one or two foot jets at least 50 GPM, straight run on a separate high flow waterfall pump. It is indescribable what it's like laying in your spa and being effortlessly supported by two jets that are massaging your back while you just float there supported by the jets". It was my imagination that these two jets could go out of the water level a bit and look like a fountain ( previous picture I attached). Now that you said configuration is different then I guess I would consider foot jet idea only. My PB suggest to run one direct flow (no jets) 1" pipe for the fountain idea and he insist it will go over the water level a bit with 1/2 HP pump. For foot jets he put (not covered yet) 1 " pipes.

    Here is the update. Now I have two suction lines each split on two on the floor. One Suction is 2.5" pipe , 2nd one 2" . One return 2.5 " and 2nd return 2". All pipes are approx. at 35 feet from the spa to the pumps. Spa will have circulation with spill over the pool and separate circulation only for the spa with no spill over. 6 single jets will run on a separate 2hp pump, 3 jet main fold will run with existing 1.5 HP circulation pump with valve control and still donít know about the foot jets pump. Any suggestions to have 2 pumps instead of 3 ?.

    Thank you
    15K Kidney shape plaster gunite pool, 1.5HP Pentair Whisperflo WFE-6, DE 4820 filter, Hayward 400K BTU NG heater, 9 x 7.5 Raised Spa, 7 Waterway Jets _ One 3 main fold jet by Waterway Plastics (total 9 jets), Spa-Pentair 2HP Whisperflo WFE-8 jet pump, 12 V Hayward Universal Core Logic Pool Light for Spa, Intermatic Sub Panel.

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