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Thread: Helping a friend: This should be a good one

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    Mr Bruce's Avatar
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    Helping a friend: This should be a good one

    I am helping a friend with a neglected pool. This is to document the process and I am asking for others to "check behind me" since there are a few things that are different from my pool (which I have under control and have for over a year thank you TFP) such as this is vinyl, smaller, and pH is low which would be a gift to me.

    This pool is a mess. There are frogs and baby frogs and it's pretty bad. I and the roommate scooped for about 3 hours. We started getting very little in scooping so I turned the pump to recirculate after "deep cleaning" the filter even though it didn't need it. Friend thought the sand might need attention but it was pretty clean. Put the filter back together and ran the pump on recirculate for 30ish minutes. Tested a sample and here's what we got. (This is on memory)

    FC 0
    CC 0
    pH <6.8
    TA 40
    CH 25-50
    CYA 0 CYA is probable. The water is so murky that I am sure it is not an accurate test right now. We tried to filter it through a coffee filter but it didn't really work.

    I was hoping to start the SLAM tonight but after a late visit to a local KMart they didn't have CYA and they didn't have Washing Soda and I didn't check for Borax. It was late and we were tired so I decided to cut off the pump for the evening and tackle pH in the morning and hopefully start slamming mid morning.

    I am very tired so I am going to stop typing now. I will be back after it in the morning. First goal get pH into low 7s. PoolMath says 3.5ish gallons of 8.25 for 12FC (KMart has 10% for $5 which doesn't sound like a good deal to me) for target CYA 30 which I will get dissolving in a sock tomorrow morning. I will retest and adjust every hour. Friend will take over lunch-ish and I may come back Sunday later to evaluate. We have tons of bleach to start.

    Thanks guys for any checks behind me and here are some pics. We will be crystal clear in days.





    ps I thought of a question. Her sand filter is slightly different than mine. There a hole in the very top that is threaded and she says that when she backwashed briefly to test the new pump would allow a small bit of water out. I'm not sure if this should be plugged or is some sort of hydrostatic value should go there instead. Advice appreciated.

    edit: I just read some Pool School. I will hit the local grocery stores for Borax to increase pH. I think PoolCalc had a smaller volume for washing soda which I why I was so fixated on it. Scooping for 3 hours in the summer sun does not make for right thinking and raising pH is foreign to me.
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    Re: Helping a friend: This should be a good one

    Sounds like you've got it under control!

    My only thoughts:

    If you're not sure whether there is CYA in the pool yet, I would only add enough to go from 0 to 20ppm. That way, if there is already 10-15ppm, you won't overshoot. And 20ppm will give you plenty of protection from the sun. And the cloudy water will give plenty of protection from the sun. Of course, you'll be backwashing a lot, which will lead to water replacement, which will reduce CYA, so overshooting a bit isn't an issue. OK, forget I even mentioned it......

    That's a surprisingly low CH reading. Not too important in a vinyl pool, but raising that a bit might help reducing foaming of the water. Loooow priority.

    Keep the pictures coming!
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    Mod Squad woodyp's Avatar
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    Re: Helping a friend: This should be a good one

    It's already June. It's already hot. If that pool has a bottom drain and water is cheap in your area, I'd certainly consider doing at least a 50% drain if not 2 separate 1/3 drains and get that "pond" down to where I could SLAM it a lot more easily and faster with less frustration. It's summer!.. Get it swim ready! Good luck!
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    Richard320's Avatar
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    Re: Helping a friend: This should be a good one

    This ought to be interesting.

    The threaded hole on top of the filter is probably where an air bleed or gauge should go. On recirculate, it'll just be a hole. On filter, it'll be a geyser.

    That lovely shade of green and zero CYA could well mean the CYA has broken down into Ammonia. In which case, replacing the water might be cheaper than eliminating it with bleach. Try the simple test before you start adding CYA. Raise FC to somewhere between 5 and 10 and get it mixed well by pump and brushing. Take FC & CC readings after 30 minutes. If the CC is tremendously higher than the FC, it's probably Ammonia.
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    Re: Helping a friend: This should be a good one

    This one is going to be fun to watch. Take lots of pictures. I really don't see crystal clear in a few days but it could be really close. With zero CYA and the color you might have bigger problems like what was said. I would try what Richard said first. If you think it's ammonia, you can pickup a test kit at the pet store. Then you make a choice of a partial drain or a LOT of bleach. If it's not ammonia your sand filter is what's going to hold you back. Just that nature of the type of filter. You can help it along by starting in recirculation. Once the algae starts to turn white and sink, vac to waste and get the bulk out of the pool. Vac very slowly to not disperse it. Once that's done, let the filter take over. Good luck and keep posting pics.
    17500 gallon Doughboy AGP, Hayward DE filter, waiting for the 1.5hp DB pump to go out.
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    Mod Squad kimkats's Avatar
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    Re: Helping a friend: This should be a good one

    Watching this one!!!!!!!!

    So sweet of you to help her out!

    Kim
    TFP Moderator 33x52 round AG 25,600 gals Sand Filter 1.5hp Pump - 2 Speed, SLAM, Pool School, Recommended Levels, Recommended Chemicals, Pool Math, Chlorine/CYA Chart, TF-100 Test Kit

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    Re: Helping a friend: This should be a good one

    I am 90% sure there is no bottom drain.

    I also had the same thought Richard. Here's how it's going, got the pH to 7.2 very early. Add enough clorine to 12 ppm and testing after 45-60 minutes results in a 3-5 ppm FC loss. Immediate raise back up to 12. So:

    FC 12 -> 9
    CC 3

    1 hr

    FC 12 -> 10
    CC 3.5

    etc. Consistently.

    Scooping is near useless so decided to switch to filter mode. Pressure would go up pretty quick, 25% in 10-15 minutes. Told to either alternate between recirc and filter or to just recirc for now. She just texted that pressure is holding steadier on filter. Told her it was her call based on whether she can watch the gauge, but to def. run recirc overnight.

    Very tired so I'm probably forgetting something. Will post later if I think of it. Concerns for now.

    1. Ammonia. Already been addressed. I thought about picking up a test from a pet store, but decided not to. Here the cons to draining.

    a) Pool would drain into neighbors yard.
    b) I'm not super concerned with water table but never know.
    c) There is very very likely no bottom drain. I have a few reasons to believe this.
    d) The hose pressure is pitiful. On refilling after several backwashes the water was too low to handle the pump suction (very strong through skimmer [see c]) and air would enter the system. On recirc the refill was so slow I was convinced there was a leak on the pump. Set up a bucket test before I left. Just got a report level was good and bucket had evaporated some. I realize we could maybe get water from a fire station or service maybe.

    2. In the beginning the return flow was quite impressive. Now it appears one is weaker than the other, not sure. Thoughts appreciated.

    During the week we will be able to test and add morning, lunch, 5ish and just before bed. She has caught on quite quickly as she is very sharp and observant. Finished my sentences when explaining OCLT e.g.

    Here is a picture from around lunch.

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    Re: Helping a friend: This should be a good one

    Good news?! In the last hour the FC dropped < 1 The CC is holding steady at 5. I am becoming less convinced of NH3
    32K gallon Plaster - 1hp Hayward 2 speed Super Pump - Hayward S200 Sand Filter - TF100XL
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    Mod Squad kimkats's Avatar
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    Re: Helping a friend: This should be a good one

    You have already made some good progress! Next thing you know it you will start seeing some blue.

    Kim
    TFP Moderator 33x52 round AG 25,600 gals Sand Filter 1.5hp Pump - 2 Speed, SLAM, Pool School, Recommended Levels, Recommended Chemicals, Pool Math, Chlorine/CYA Chart, TF-100 Test Kit

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    Re: Helping a friend: This should be a good one

    Looking like progress. Just let her know, it's like building a house. When the framers are done it looks like a house but it's not done yet. Keep an eye on the filter and yes run it on recirculation at night. Might be time to run another CYA test. If it still comes back 0 then it will be time to add some with a target of 30.
    17500 gallon Doughboy AGP, Hayward DE filter, waiting for the 1.5hp DB pump to go out.
    Learn to take the advice here and be trouble free or use the pool store's advice. "You can't do both and get very far"

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    Re: Helping a friend: This should be a good one

    I had a thought. There is what appears to be an overflow ... port in the skimmer? Anybody have one of those? I did a GIS and couldn't find anything similar.

    Anyway, what if we just ran the hose to the bottom of the pool and left it running continuously during the day and watched the pool to see if it ever rose above 3/4 way up the skimmer to do a half hearted refill?

    edit

    1hr later.

    FC 8.5 (loss of 3.5)
    CC 5

    edit:

    1hr later

    FC 11.5 (loss of 0.5)
    CC 5 (amazing)
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    Re: Helping a friend: This should be a good one

    "We" have relaxed our testing and switching to 90-120 minute intervals. Latest test:

    FC 7
    CC 4.5

    One more test and add prescribed after dark then aiming for a middle of the night test and add. Advised testing but 2am functionality is a lot to ask of anyone on a Saturday night so worst case I prescribed adding 2 gallons of 8.25 and getting rest. This chick is a warrior. I was done at 2pm. She is brushing and adding constantly. Latest pic



    I have convinced myself we do not have an NH3 problem.
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    Richard320's Avatar
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    Re: Helping a friend: This should be a good one

    I swear I see a shadow on the floor of the pool, not just a reflection on the surface.

    This thread with the continuous photo essay is probably going into my inspirational links thread.
    16K freeform gunite with spa; Pentair 4000 DE filter; Century Whisperflow 1 HP; Pentair Minimax heater.
    Troublefree does not mean Maintenancefree. It's like brushing your teeth: You can spend a couple minutes a day and pennies a week or go to the dentist once a year and spend several thousand dollars.
    A pool is like a pet - you have to feed it every day, even the days you don't want to play with it!

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    Mod Squad kimkats's Avatar
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    Re: Helping a friend: This should be a good one

    Now start taking the pics looking down at the stairs. That will help us see the color changing and getting lighter the best.

    I would have to draw the line at any testing after 9:00pm also!

    Kim
    TFP Moderator 33x52 round AG 25,600 gals Sand Filter 1.5hp Pump - 2 Speed, SLAM, Pool School, Recommended Levels, Recommended Chemicals, Pool Math, Chlorine/CYA Chart, TF-100 Test Kit

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    Re: Helping a friend: This should be a good one

    9p

    FC 10.5
    CC 5.0
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    Re: Helping a friend: This should be a good one

    Day 2 update

    1:15 am
    FC 10.5
    CC 6.0

    Notes: For the two overnight tests we are being rebels and aiming for +1-2 over SLAM level for a cushion.

    I am not surprised at CC rise due to lack of daylight. Sample is noticeably clearer. Pool surface has slight "sudsy" appearance, apparently a breakdown of something. Hopefully we have a lot of sun today. Have advised a pH test and adjust if TC < 10 first thing in morning. Otherwise have suggested filtering and backwashing when possible, testing and adjusting at 90-120 minute intervals and a couple of brushes at minimum.

    Out of pocket until 1pm or so. Hopefully we will have a picture by then. Until then here is my friend attacking the monster.



    e: hotlinking is bad, rehosted gif. Also we started slam yesterday morning so I am counting this as day 2 not three.
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    Re: Helping a friend: This should be a good one

    Not sure I followed the hose refill speed issue . If H2O per hr delivery is low try two hoses from separate house connections. looks like good progress.
    Gunite/plaster pool w/spa built 1983, 17,000 gal. (depth 3' x 6' x 3') (37' X 16' +spa, stairs & large in-pool bench seat). Arneson (now Hayward) pool vac (rebuilt 3 or 4 times over 30 years), 350k BTU (nat gas) XE heater (in need of a serious herbal cleansing lol), 2HP Marathon pump & filter basket, DE filter NSS-48, air pump for spa bubbles, one skimmer plus in-line filter Hayward CANISTER W560 to the pool vac. Re-plastered May 2013 reinforced quartz (Marbletite) Diamond Bright. Test kit: Taylor K-2006; Bleach

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    Re: Helping a friend: This should be a good one

    If it was me I would have dumped a lot of that water. That was just nasty.
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    Mod Squad kimkats's Avatar
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    Re: Helping a friend: This should be a good one

    LOL good one for the "fighting"

    Kim
    TFP Moderator 33x52 round AG 25,600 gals Sand Filter 1.5hp Pump - 2 Speed, SLAM, Pool School, Recommended Levels, Recommended Chemicals, Pool Math, Chlorine/CYA Chart, TF-100 Test Kit

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    Re: Helping a friend: This should be a good one

    If that were my pool I too would have drained and refilled but it's not my pool and we both agreed given the available info and situation it was not feasible. It is moot at this point to even bring it up.

    Updates Day 2

    FC 8 CC 7 first thing. We overshot so maybe lost 6
    930a FC 11 CC 5.5
    11a FC 11.5 CC 6.5

    She has brushed and removed a good bit more stuff that we missed. I have been advising to brush down and toward the deep end then scooping to remove. They got a good bit. Both baskets were full of terrible stuff after mid morning. She is feeling very good. I have advised to move to 2 hr between additions today, and tomorrow we will switch to 4 hrs which is fine IMO. I am going to also advise to add 1 lb CYA to a sock if the others are empty. I undershot by 30% initially and with the frequent backwashing we are lying to ourselves to assume 30 CYA. 1 lb still undershoots us a little.

    Picture time.



    I asked for one that showed color and clarity better



    I will visit myself at lunch tomorrow and report. e: spelling
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