Concrete pool up north

[Henry Porter]

Hi Duraleigh and thanks for your reply!

First, are there any pics in here on your pool? I don't think I have seen a privat pool that big, 170000 litres WOW. It most be awesome to swim in that amount of water.

I don't know if I misunderstod what you wrote but my pan is designed to heat water. In the radiators that are placed in our house circulate warm water that comes from our pans accumulation tank.
I don't think it's far from the truth that we will get approx 2-3 degree out of a full load(150litres) of wood in the pan.
I will remember that I have seen a person who heated his pool with wood with a similar pan and he run through around 10-15 cu m in a season.
I can understand that a heat pump is much more convenient than my choice. I haven't really considerd a heat pump beacuse it have been so naturally to connect a heat exchanger to my equipment that I already have. Maybe it's worth start looking at a heat pump aswell, as an option to the heat exchanger. Probably good to buy things like that while it's still winter and the poolstores have their discounts.
I think I could squeeze in one in our budget

 

[duraleigh]

Hi, Mats,

Converting the numbers to metric is cumbersome but I think I follow your math pretty well.

A full load of wood for you is about 5.4 cubic feet.....a full load in my stove is not too far from that........ about 7.7 cubic feet.

It is adequate (but not by much) to heat my house (about 4,000 sq feet of living space)

I will burn about 18-20 cubic meters of wood to heat the house for a winter.

Just guessing, I calculated I needed about 60 cubic meters of wood to keep my pool @ 84 degrees for a month before the swimming season and a month after the swimming season.

During those months, Our temperatures here will average around 74 F. for a daily high down to around 50 F. for a daily low.

I assume your climate is much colder but don't know that for sure.

Adding everything up, it was simply too much wood for me to burn to make it possible. Your equipment looks much more efficient than mine and you will be heating a smaller pool so you may have success. In my case, I simply underestimated the amount of energy it would take to get the results I wanted.

Seeing what you have built so far, I have a feeling you can make it work. Do you cut and split all your own wood? Do you have to pay for the wood or do you have a free source? Mine is about 80% free but I occaisionally have to buy some. I cut and split it myself (with family help)[attachment=0:3qagtdwg]temp054.JPG[/attachment:3qagtdwg]

 

[Henry Porter]

Thanks for the picture. I had to look twice to see how big the pool actually are. Not until I noticed your outdoor furniture in the back of the picture I realized it's size.
I would love to have that view that shows in the photo from my pool aswell. Unfortunately are we livin quite centrally so the view of the woods is impossible, but you can't get everything.

I brought up the subject to my wife yesterday, that we should look up a heat pump as an option to the heat exhchanger and she thought that's a good idea. Actually I think it's leaning over to a heat pump the more I think about it. Tempting to let the pump runs over night and come up to warm pool in the morning. Get rid of the hassle to load the pan and wait for it's effect in the water, even if it's not that big of a job. It's worth a real thinking and thanks for bringing it up

I cut and split myself. Last year was the first I used a mechanical splitter, I use to do it the old fashion way with an axe, takes a few days but I take it as an exercise. Actually splitting wood is like a therapy and I kind of enjoy it. A quick look at the piece, try figure out in which direction you should use the axe and all of a sudden you get pretty good at it and have to use a minimum of force to brake the log.

I have a connection so I buy wood in 3 meter pieces home delivered to a good price. His truck takes around 22 cubik and that is a little more than I use in a year. So every fourth year I don't have to buy any.

 

[duraleigh]

Well, I have hijacked this thread away from pools so I'll stop talking about wood burning......after this post :-D :-D .

I use a mechanical splitter and buy wood in 12' lengths as well. My furnace is best used out in the country because it occaisionaly puts out quite a bit of smoke that neighbors here in the US might find objectionable. my nearest neighbor is about 600 meters away.

YOur pool build remains fascinating to many of us. Your construction methods are much different than ours but the quality of your work shows in every picture. Please keep us posted.

I like the idea of a heat pump for that pool. I think that may work best. I'm going to look on the internet for your average temperatures. What town do you live in?

 

[Henry Porter]

Don't worry about hijacking anything. It just fun to get chance to discuss other things aswell. There will be plenty of time for pool talk
I'm glad that you give me your time and knowledge regarding all this. Its' highly treasured :-D

I came in from the pool just a minute ago. I have mounted distances on the rebars so the outer wall gets in right position in relative to the rebars. It's important to get atleast 40mm concrete cast over all reinforcements. So it stands against corrosion.
I try to get small thing done during weekdays so I can concentrate on the bigger tasks on the weekends.

I live in a town called Halmstad. It's located on the west coast 150km south of Gothenburg.

Have a nice day duraleigh!

 

[duraleigh]

Well, a visit to the Weather Data for Halmstad was very revealing......and quite surprising for someone who has never been to your country.

Most different from the US was the diurnal (daily high and daily low) averages. Each month, you average about 10 F change from night to day.

Here in the US we average about 20-25 degress difference on the East coast and frequently 40 degrees difference in the desert Southwest.

With those temps, I would think that climate to be ideal for a heat pump. I would believe you would use a huge amount of wood to get keep your pool warm enough to swim. I would also think you may have to increase your btu output by getting a bigger "pan" (we call them "furnace", usually) to have adequate capacity to heat both your house and pool.

Do you ever have any 90 F degree days? Does the ground ever freeze? I'm thinking you probably never or rarely have a thunderstorm....is that right?

 

[Henry Porter]

A handful of days each summer reach 90 F, with a humidity which is lower than you usually find in climates that reach those temperatures.
Frozen ground is also somethnig we have every winter even in the south of Sweden. We had previously two weeks of below zero both day and night and then the ground was frozen. But after that it have been milder again. The forecast is on the telly right now and they predict colder weather here again with start on sunday
Thunderstorms is also something we experience here. Not with the same strenght that I have seen that they have in Florida for example, but we have them year around, except for the mid winter.

I have to ask a question that probably is stupid!! Is impregnate planks something you use? Or are you use hackmatack( looked up that word in the dictionary :blah: ) Or are you painting outdoor wood so it stand against the course of time?

 

[Henry Porter]

Hi!
Here a set of pictures I took a few minutes ago. Problem is that is getting shady so soon nowadays, and I'm so deep focused to get as much done as possible while it's still light outside so I forget to take pictures.
Not much is done since the last pictures I've posted, some of you might think. I can assure you that this little progress have taken a considerable amount of time, remember that so far is this a one man job

What I have done since last time is that I have the outer wall on place but not fixed. Fix them to the inner wall is something I will do with 125 pieces of metal bars( with fixed lenghts) that goes through both walls. Those bars makes sure that I get the right space inbetween the walls and that they stick together while we pour and vibrate the concrete.

Next set of pictures will show a completely finished frame work.... Hopefully 8)
[attachment=2:1nrut6sr]Outside frameIMG_2955.gif[/attachment:1nrut6sr]
[attachment=1:1nrut6sr]Outside frameIMG_2956.gif[/attachment:1nrut6sr]
[attachment=0:1nrut6sr]Outside frameIMG_2959.gif[/attachment:1nrut6sr]

 

[duraleigh]

I'm puzzled why you chose to put your skimmers so close together. Normally, they would be spaced pretty far apart and on the downwind side to help with cleaning the pool surface.

 

[Henry Porter]

You're probably right with that remark Dave.
I can explain what the thinking behind their positions are.
Since I don't want any inflows on the side where the the steps will be I coulden't place the skimmers on the opposite(long) side. So I switched position between the inflows and the skimmers. Partly to avoid the outflows to get on the side where the steps will be but also to get both skimmers in the underground room, I see a lot of advantages with that. So if everything goes as I plan, one skimmer will take care of the area near the steps and the other take care of the rest. My bottom outflow is also placed near boths skimmers so I hope the water will move more natuarally to that position when all three outflows are placed near each other.
I'm prepeared to have some struggle to optimise the system by throttle the flow on the skimmers so they work good together.
but I hope it will work somehow good the way I had it planned in the end.

I appreciate more inputs on this. Am I totally wrong in my thinking???
[attachment=0:wn8z0fw4]ny belysning.jpg[/attachment:wn8z0fw4]

 

[Henry Porter]

I have given the positioning of my skimmers a lot of thoughts and have decided to let them be where they are. I think that this will work pretty good. It may not be the most optimize position but it will work and as I mentioned in my last post I see advantages about having them both placed in the underground technician room.

Dave my friend
I have since I spoke to you about heat pumps, more and more lend over to skip heating the pool with my wood pan and actually buy a heat pump. And that's what I have done today. From the research I have done over the last week and a half this pump is the best that the swedish resellers has to offer. Swedish made and with an effect of 13,8kw. i'm glad that I decided to go with a heat pump and don't have to connect my pool to my house warming system. The reason for me to buy this so quick is that I got a good winter price on the product.

Have a nice weekend poolfriends :-D[attachment=0:27g6yokd]Heat pump 13,8 Kw13,8kw.gif[/attachment:27g6yokd]

 

[eggman]

Henry, I do look forward to your updates. Cannot wait to see the finished product.

 

[revstriker]

Henry, a very interesting build indeed. In your plan, I only see one spot for a main drain. Will this be an anti-vortex drain, or is that not a requirement?

 

[waste]

Henry, and all. I thought I was keeping current on this but just saw the posts from 12/07 re: the skimmers.

I think you've placed them well! If you can get the flow of the returns to push everything on the surface to that corner, they should be able to pick it up You had mentioned using the flaps that came with the skimmers to adjust the suction - forget that! run each on a separate line with a valve that can control the suction - believe me, you'll get much better results that way! Also have a valve on the bottom drain line, you can use either 2, 3 way valves or 3 good quality ball valves (the one for the bottom drain should be of the highest quality!). If you do as I suggest, controlling the flow performance will be easy as will vacuuming (assuming you'll use one of the skimmers to vacuum) and winterizing the pool (yeah, I know you don't even have it built yet, let alone swam in it, but preparing for future winters will save a lot of trouble when that time comes )

Thanks for the updates and well wishes for getting this pool finished in a timely manner! :-D

 

[Henry Porter]

Hi and merry christmas and happy new year to you all.
The darkest part of the year seems to have passed which gives me more time to finish this project in "timely manner" :-D . This is actually something you notice now that it's not that dark as early anylonger.
I happen to have 14 days off my work over christmas, so the plan is to get the frame ready for molding by the time I'm free.
The problem is that the wall blocks ar so heavy so I can't move them myself, and thats slow the process down quite a bit. Hopefully can I get some help tomorrow.
I know I said that I shoulden't post anymore pics until I have something new to show. But I haven't showed the syncoflex sealing in the bottom of where the wall will be placed. Probably the most important thing if you choose to build the way I do with separate casting between wall and floor. I have gone through all the joints in the syncoflex stripe and improved it with new stripes upon where the joints are placed. Everything to make sure that the construction to will be water tight.

Revstriker! I think I know what you mean about "one" maindrain. I Remember that I've read somewhere, that you are obligated to use two maindrains in the US. Incase someone get stucked with the hair in one of them. I think that what you meant. Here we don't have that restriction. I will tune the suction to that drain with a ball valve, so the risk for that will be at a minimum if you happen to get near the drain with your head.
When I planned for the pool features I was told not have any maindrains at all beacuse it isn't necessary if you don't have a deepend in your pool(they said). I mounted one beacuse I think it will help me to circulate the water and keep the pool clean. Time will tell if I was right or not. I can establish that bottom drains are unusual in pools that I've seen been built here.

Waste! Thanks for giving me your opinion on the skimmers. I have wondering back and forth regarding that. I have decided to keep them where they are. It's to late to change it anyway since that part of the frame is already done.
I will do the way that you suggest, to mount a separate valve on each pipe on the suction side to optimize the flow in the pool.
You said that I would be helped with winterizing the pool if I can controll the flow in the pool, can you explain that for me please?
To get this done in a "timely manner" have I planned for a early vacation this year. In an attempt to keep the time frame. I keep my fingers crossed. The project itself is still very inspiring. If I just can get through this part that are so darn heavy, I'll be fine.

Eggman! Thanks for your encouraring words appreciate it.

[attachment=0:1oje6pq7]SyncoflexIMG_3026.gif[/attachment:1oje6pq7]

 

[budster]

I am so impressed with your work!

One additional word on the heating; the heat loss from the surface will be your enemy in cold temps. While we all struggle with the BTU/water volume sizing formulas, many of the US manufacturers of heat pumps and heaters giver greater weight to the surface area of the pool in calculating product requirements (and, of course, desired heat gain per hour), because that is where the heat loss happens.

I am not a fan of solar blankets because of asthetics, but for practicality, you might consider same. :-D

 

[summersatthelake]

This is a very cool pool build to follow.
It appears that your wall forming material is some kind of plywood and I see that you have bracing but I don't see any wall ties.

 

[summersatthelake]

Hi!

What I have done since last time is that I have the outer wall on place but not fixed. Fix them to the inner wall is something I will do with 125 pieces of metal bars( with fixed lenghts) that goes through both walls. Those bars makes sure that I get the right space inbetween the walls and that they stick together while we pour and vibrate the concrete.

I think that I found the answer

 

[SPP]

Hello Henry,

I actually reply to your post a few days ago but I got bad internet connection and I lost all I typed....

I wanted to share with you all the trouble what my pool and my friend's pool got, both are concrete pool like yours.
My pool pump is above the pool. My friend's pool pump room ( a big one ) is below his pool deepest water line.

Here goes :

01. First take a look at this post, its about a leaking water inlet.
post82136.html#p82136

I don't understand pool construction or anything about concrete, except that concrete is porous and water will seep into it. unless special mix right ??

In my country, builder use a special paint to waterproof the concrete. The paint dried to become like waterproof membrane. So its not solid rubber membrane or the sort. Later the wall will be tiled.

If I am correct, whatever pipes they install on the concrete for water inlet or suction gets embedded inside the concrete when the concrete is poured in. What I don't understand is the waterproofing used between the pipe outer diameter to the concrete itself. I know when they install the fittings, the local builder uses those clear silicone like those on glass aquarium. So I think there is always a possibility of micro leak between the PVC pipe outer wall and the concrete that surrounds it, applying clear silicone will stop possible leakage but I don't know for how long.

I work on fiberglass boats. I install a few underwater fittings like engine cooling intake valves and fishfinder transducer. I use 3M polyurathane sealant for this job but I can apply it easily and properly both inside the hull and outside the hull. So the sealant really works well and there is always a fitting/washer that is bigger than the drilled holes covering both side of the hole, so the sealant can be spread out properly to create a proper water tight fitting that will last at least 10 years if not more. This fitting also get screwed in, so there is also added mechanical fastening.

You mentioned "syncoflex", I read the datasheet, it looks good.... I wish they sell those here.


02. Water heater. Have bypass valve and plumbinbg ready. When not in use don't pass thru chlorinated water there, its such a waste on the copper pipes. My friend pool has a gas type Pentair water heater and the water flow friction is high, so I asked the pool supply shop to install a bypass valve. The result is better water flow and those copper pipes should last longer. Check and make sure that your heater heater has a safety switch where when there is no water flow, it will not allow itself to be turned ON. I think such safety should be standard but beter check than sorry. No water flow and heater being on can damage the heater right ?

03. My friends pool has about 10-11 water inlets. His water inlets are positioned very deep, almost near the pool bottom. Mine is only 30-40 cm below pool surface. The builders said that since water heater is being used, if those water inlets are not placed very low, poor mixing will occur. Have you consider this possibilty ? If I read your post correctly, you will use only 3 water inlets. Are you sure those will provide fast hot water mixing ? I think some expert opinion is needed here.

04. I never use a skimmer and never seen one. Your photo shows a skimmer placement in what will become the pump room. Are the skimmers serviceable, I mean do you need to open up for cleaning ? Will your pump room ceiling be as high as the pool surface, if so, will there be enough headroom for you to service the skimmers ? Just a thought, it seems the skimmer is so high up and you may have a hard time servicing it if your ceiling is not higher than the pool top water surface.

05. Having an underground pump room or any pump room that is below pool waterline means there is a potential for flooding.
My friend's pump room has a submersible pump and a flood alarm. It also has 2 ventilation shaft made of 8" PVC pipe. 1 has a centrifugal blower to exhaust hot air and naturally fresh air get sucked in by the other air shaft. Its hot here in this country.
I bet your country regulation dictates that you must use GFI/ELCB or equivalent to guard against possible water spray or flooding causing electrical short circuit in the pump room. My friend's pump room use GFI/ELCB for each equipment ( located in pump room ) and a main GFI/ELCB in the house main panel high and dry. So in worst case flooding scenario, the 3 phase electrical supply will be shut down safely from the source. My friend has an unlucky crack on the sand filter neck, it nearly flooded the room if it weren't for the submersible pump. The pipe that sends out the water from the submersible pump when routed to the city drain, make sure it has a goose neck or 1 way valve ( check valve ) or whatever method you may use to prevent water from the drain to flood your pump room when there is a big rain or other possible scenario.

06. Having underground pump room is more difficult for maintenance and so on even though it looks "clean". Whatever benefit you get from less suction effort will be wasted in pushing the water up, depending how high is the water inlet in the pool will be located above the pump impeller. You will need more valves to isolate pumps and filters for servicing when they are all located below pool water level. Make a bigger pump room than estimated. The pipes run and bends will need more space than you usually imagine, unless you have done similiar piping before. Every" L" bends ( elbow ) on rigid pipe will take extra 6 to 8 cm of extra space for the fittings, I think that's the figure.

07. Try to have the water inlets, all of them on same depth. My friend's pool due to its unique 2 pool in one shape, has a few water inlets located shallower in the adjoining kids pool. The pressure loss is greater due to distance and those water inlets being much higher than the adult pool, makes waterflow so weak in the kids pool. The bad effect is that the kids pool water surface does not move fast enough to send the airborne dust on water surface to the overflow. This pool has no skimmer, it overflows out to the gutter on the side of the pool.

08. My pool also has a "leak" but its because the builder forgot to waterproof the side top surface of the concrete before they place the natural rock tiles. Since my pool overflows itself to a gutter surrounding the pool perimeter, 30cm of concrete that has no waterproofing caused me 400 liter a day of water. I don't know the long term effect it will cause to my concrete work surrounding the pool.... :| . You have a skimmer so it should be allright for you.

Good luck with the projecy Henry...
All the best. Hope my info is useful.

Cheers

 

[Henry Porter]

Cheers SPP and thanks alot for your inputs, they are most usefull for a first time builder like myself :-D
I've read over your thoughtful post twice and will try to answer the things that I have considerd previously or atleast thought that I have considerd :-D .

01. First take a look at this post, its about a leaking water inlet.
post82136.html#p82136

Very useful tips with the syrup, never heard of that before.

I don't understand pool construction or anything about concrete, except that concrete is porous and water will seep into it. unless special mix right ??

yes you are right about that there are many different way to mix concrete and in order to get the mix watertight itself is the relationship inbetween cement weight and the weight of the water important.

In my country, builder use a special paint to waterproof the concrete. The paint dried to become like waterproof membrane. So its not solid rubber membrane or the sort. Later the wall will be tiled.

In my case is it the construction itself that must be watertight and stable enough to prevent cracking of the surface due to movement in the construction hence the many rebars. I had a wish to tile both walls and bottom but it became to expensive, atleast for now, so the plan is to tile just the waterline and below either apply a epoxy coating or some sort of plaster. The last option is something I have considerd since I joined this site. In sweden you either paint with the epoxy or mount tile

If I am correct, whatever pipes they install on the concrete for water inlet or suction gets embedded inside the concrete when the concrete is poured in. What I don't understand is the waterproofing used between the pipe outer diameter to the concrete itself. I know when they install the fittings, the local builder uses those clear silicone like those on glass aquarium. So I think there is always a possibility of micro leak between the PVC pipe outer wall and the concrete that surrounds it, applying clear silicone will stop possible leakage but I don't know for how long.

The type of concrete I use doesen't get penetrate by water, no more than the top surface(2-3mm). So the problem is not the concrete itself, but just like you said the details embedded in the concrete. From my way of thinking will there be no problem if you are able to get the concrete to bond against the embedded details. So for that reason it's important not to remove the frame before the concrete inside it had time to settle properly. As you have seen from one of my pics, have I also applied syncoflex not only in the bottom but also on all details that are mounted in the concrete. Since the syncoflex bounds very good to the concrete, are the week link the bonding between syncofflex and the plastic. For that reason is it important that you use a primer before apply syncoflex to those materials.
On the metalbars that are mounted between the wall sides have everyone a "washer" made of rubber in the middle to prevent leaking. But again It's very important to let the frame sit still long enough so the concrete has enough time to settle.
To my understandings people how casting on a professional level are eager to remove the frames as early as possible beacuse it's get hard to remove them once the concrete has enough time to bond against it. Normally they remove the frames the day after the concrete is poured.
[attachment=0:2pv0lrni]formlåsIMG_3045.gif[/attachment:2pv0lrni]

02. Water heater. Have bypass valve and plumbinbg ready. When not in use don't pass thru chlorinated water there, its such a waste on the copper pipes. My friend pool has a gas type Pentair water heater and the water flow friction is high, so I asked the pool supply shop to install a bypass valve. The result is better water flow and those copper pipes should last longer. Check and make sure that your heater heater has a safety switch where when there is no water flow, it will not allow itself to be turned ON. I think such safety should be standard but beter check than sorry. No water flow and heater being on can damage the heater right ?

I have many different settings on the heater. I think i can control the pump from the heater, so the heater start the pump. That way there's no risk that the heater is on while the pump is off. I don't have a problem with that since I need as much heat to the pool as I can get(I think). The modell on my heater is upgrade one or two sizes compared to what a pool at my size requires. So for tha reason I think it can handle the amount of water that my pool pump brings, nevertheless I will mount a bypass valve so I can adjust the flow through the heater so the differens between incoming and outgooing water will be 2 degrees C.

03. My friends pool has about 10-11 water inlets. His water inlets are positioned very deep, almost near the pool bottom. Mine is only 30-40 cm below pool surface. The builders said that since water heater is being used, if those water inlets are not placed very low, poor mixing will occur. Have you consider this possibilty ? If I read your post correctly, you will use only 3 water inlets. Are you sure those will provide fast hot water mixing ? I think some expert opinion is needed here.

Actually have I only two inlets both are placed 400mm from the surface but with a possibility adjust the douche. Since my pool is only 1550mm deep I hope that won't be an issue.

04. I never use a skimmer and never seen one. Your photo shows a skimmer placement in what will become the pump room. Are the skimmers serviceable, I mean do you need to open up for cleaning ? Will your pump room ceiling be as high as the pool surface, if so, will there be enough headroom for you to service the skimmers ? Just a thought, it seems the skimmer is so high up and you may have a hard time servicing it if your ceiling is not higher than the pool top water surface.

both skimmers will be in the room but they will be reachable from the outside on the top, so the cleaning will be from there.
The good thing with having them built in, is that you can examine them for leaks very easy.

05. Having an underground pump room or any pump room that is below pool waterline means there is a potential for flooding.
My friend's pump room has a submersible pump and a flood alarm. It also has 2 ventilation shaft made of 8" PVC pipe. 1 has a centrifugal blower to exhaust hot air and naturally fresh air get sucked in by the other air shaft. Its hot here in this country.
I bet your country regulation dictates that you must use GFI/ELCB or equivalent to guard against possible water spray or flooding causing electrical short circuit in the pump room. My friend's pump room use GFI/ELCB for each equipment ( located in pump room ) and a main GFI/ELCB in the house main panel high and dry. So in worst case flooding scenario, the 3 phase electrical supply will be shut down safely from the source. My friend has an unlucky crack on the sand filter neck, it nearly flooded the room if it weren't for the submersible pump. The pipe that sends out the water from the submersible pump when routed to the city drain, make sure it has a goose neck or 1 way valve ( check valve ) or whatever method you may use to prevent water from the drain to flood your pump room when there is a big rain or other possible scenario.

This is something I have to look into.

06. Having underground pump room is more difficult for maintenance and so on even though it looks "clean". Whatever benefit you get from less suction effort will be wasted in pushing the water up, depending how high is the water inlet in the pool will be located above the pump impeller. You will need more valves to isolate pumps and filters for servicing when they are all located below pool water level. Make a bigger pump room than estimated. The pipes run and bends will need more space than you usually imagine, unless you have done similiar piping before. Every" L" bends ( elbow ) on rigid pipe will take extra 6 to 8 cm of extra space for the fittings, I think that's the figure.

Generally for a pump is that the pushing side is much stronger than the suction side. So short hoses on the suction side is something to strive for. Regarding the valves that you are suggesting is something I will follow.

I really appreciate all your advices they are all most useful to me.

A small update:
I'm most dissapointed on myself and what I achived over the christmas holiday. My plan was to get the frame ready very easy but I didn't. It's not much left and as soon as it's ready I will post a few pics.

Regards