- Jul 16, 2012
- 7,211
- Pool Size
- 27000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
Not really sure but I'm going to stick with yes. Sort of a semi-educated half guess. Maybe ChemGeek is also a physicist.
In Pre-Design/Concept Phase
- Thread starter platipus
- Start date
Not really sure but I'm going to stick with yes. Sort of a semi-educated half guess. Maybe ChemGeek is also a physicist.
- Jun 12, 2011
- 3,765
- Pool Size
- 19500
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pureline Crystal Pure 60,000
Just to clarify, the 18 inches is actually from the deck surface to the bottom of the sun shelf. The actual water depth is 15 inches. A normal step is 9 inches, so my sun shelf is the second step down from the deck.
Re. Flagstone feeling hotter than concrete. I think it may be because flagstone is so porous. When I step on flagstone with wet feet, it seems to soak up the water that would help it feel cooler. My deck isn't porous so, the water helps cool just a bit.
Re. Flagstone feeling hotter than concrete. I think it may be because flagstone is so porous. When I step on flagstone with wet feet, it seems to soak up the water that would help it feel cooler. My deck isn't porous so, the water helps cool just a bit.
That's exactly what I was thinking. Our spa was accidentally built about 6"'s deeper in the center than we expected. Turned out to be a great mistake as we have enjoyed swimming in the spa all winter. If we sit upright, no problem, but if we kind of stretch out in the spa, we notice that you float around a bit with all the air and water flow. If you go after this idea, I'd suggest you consider foot rests to hold your position.
Noise for the spa is equipment related for the most part. We intentionally put equipment 90' from spa and around the corner of house and love it. So quiet and relaxing. The only other consideration for noise is amount of air blown into jets. We have a single powerful blower motor. When it's on, the bubbles are downright noisy (12 jet spa). We will sometimes turn the blower off after it has run for a minute or two. the jets still function as a venturi and push a lesser amount of bubbles. Not as theraputic, but nearly silent.
We love our sunshelf. Recommend some type of lighting on top of it so your whole pool lights up.
Looks like you have a gap between spa spillover and right wall of pool. Might turn out to be a difficult spot for maintenance.
Two LED's in the main pool might be sufficient ... but clearly you have a substantial pool budget. Why hold back
You will need some major horsepower to run all that. " What is the limitation with built-in spas and jets?" No limit, but you need to have the right ratio of flow and air blowers per jet. Some jets are 10 GPM, some are 20-25 GPM. Only other consideration is that your spa plumbing guy will hate you ... and will charge you or your PB accordingly.
"From what I've read, this can be helped by over-sized (or maybe right-sized) plumbing lines." I think this is usually an issue when you are concerned about making sure you have sufficient flow to jets. Bigger pipe = less resistance = more flow. Don't see how this could be related to noise ... maybe someone else can chime in.
BTW, I think that's an incredible design/patio and hope you start tomorrow so we can see it take shape.
Best of Luck
Scot
@Scott
Thanks. I really appreciate the responses.
When you say lighting on top of the sunshelf, do you mean just another underwater light, or something else?
As far as a "substantial budget" (I get a knot in my stomach just saying that), this design is a start-with-everything deal and then I will trim down from there. I almost have no idea what to expect other than I know it will be well more than $50k (well within budget) and (hopefully) below $125k (well outside of budget). Keep in mind, the patio is 100% done. That is pure pool budget I am talking about and does not include landscaping which is also separate. In my head this is pretty much just a standard 12' x 30' pool & spa with the following splurges:
#1 - Separate but connected swim spa (this is the big one)
#2 - Glass tile three side perimeter overflow on the spa
#3 - Three floating steps in the sunshelf
#4 - Rock waterfall/feature into and out of swim spa (nothing too major)
#5 - Pebble surface of some kind
#6 - Automation
#7 - LED lighting
I understand what you are saying on the gap/channel on the one side of the spa. I've seen this done in many pictures of perimeter overflow spas so I did not consider it to be an issue. I'd like to be able to do that so we can enjoy the water overflow from the patio seating area more. If it turns out to be a problem when we talk to a builder, it could be scrapped.
I am curious because you are not the only one who has expressed concerns about floating with reclined seating. How does this work in most standard pre-built hot tubs? That is ultimately what I was hoping to recreate to some degree in this. The comfort and fit of a pre-built, while keeping aesthetics of a built-in.
Thanks!
plat.
Thanks. I really appreciate the responses.
When you say lighting on top of the sunshelf, do you mean just another underwater light, or something else?
As far as a "substantial budget" (I get a knot in my stomach just saying that), this design is a start-with-everything deal and then I will trim down from there. I almost have no idea what to expect other than I know it will be well more than $50k (well within budget) and (hopefully) below $125k (well outside of budget). Keep in mind, the patio is 100% done. That is pure pool budget I am talking about and does not include landscaping which is also separate. In my head this is pretty much just a standard 12' x 30' pool & spa with the following splurges:
#1 - Separate but connected swim spa (this is the big one)
#2 - Glass tile three side perimeter overflow on the spa
#3 - Three floating steps in the sunshelf
#4 - Rock waterfall/feature into and out of swim spa (nothing too major)
#5 - Pebble surface of some kind
#6 - Automation
#7 - LED lighting
I understand what you are saying on the gap/channel on the one side of the spa. I've seen this done in many pictures of perimeter overflow spas so I did not consider it to be an issue. I'd like to be able to do that so we can enjoy the water overflow from the patio seating area more. If it turns out to be a problem when we talk to a builder, it could be scrapped.
I am curious because you are not the only one who has expressed concerns about floating with reclined seating. How does this work in most standard pre-built hot tubs? That is ultimately what I was hoping to recreate to some degree in this. The comfort and fit of a pre-built, while keeping aesthetics of a built-in.
Thanks!
plat.
Just wanted to add, I have started a build thread for our patio in the Kitchen Forum. It will take a couple days, but I'll post the whole thing with lots and lots of pictures.
http://www.troublefreepool.com/threads/88734-Patio-Koi-Pond-amp-Outdoor-Kitchen-Build-in-Houston
Thanks
plat.
http://www.troublefreepool.com/threads/88734-Patio-Koi-Pond-amp-Outdoor-Kitchen-Build-in-Houston
Thanks
plat.
Floating is an issue in all hot tubs. It can be managed by lowering the water level or, as someone suggested, having a foot rest. In a stand alone tub you can just push your feet against the opposite seating surface. Or just float a little, it isn't all bad unless you float too much. I even float up and down when I breathe. It isn't like you have to hold on or anything, just put a hand or foot somewhere to stop the drift. Or have the water low enough so you stay sat down.
And, of course, the more people in the tub the worse it gets.
And, of course, the more people in the tub the worse it gets.
I think there are a few different options but I'm not familiar with all of them. LED bubblers is one. Fiber optic may be another.
I would think you could build an incredible pool within that range in the Houston area.
Anything can be built and it sounds like a great idea!
I have right now on the current design 3 LED bubblers on the sunshelf. I do wonder if it wouldn't be nice to have an LED fixture there as well so I could leave them off if I wanted and then still have that portion lit up nicely.
Thanks
plat.
Thanks
plat.
Plat,
Can I come live on your patio? Freaking awesome design!
You asked elsewhere about swim jets. Yes I have them. 3 total. They are not part of a "package" like endless pools or other suppliers. Ours are 4" nozzles each piped to a Single speed Pentair 2.5 HP WhisperFlo pump. Each pump has independent controls, so I can have any combination of 1, 2, or 3 pumps/nozzles on. Swimming against 7.5 HP is a blast...and tiring. Each of our outside nozzles are canted slightly in towards the center to make more of a consistent single jet stream.
Each pump is powered by 2 intakes around the pool, so lots of piping for that setup, but really fun. I like to do laps. Hard to do in a pool that is 34' long with the kick-outs. Some nights I do 100 of those laps, other nights I just swim against the jets.
The jets are also hooked to an air intake pump, so when they go on, it goes on. Really froths the water. Swimming freestyle against that can be challenging up close. Of course you have the same issue in the ocean. Swimming breaststroke is easier to maintain over longer times and easier to breathe. I can do a breaststroke and get all the way up to the pumps and stay there a few inches away, but it takes EFFORT and is not maintainable for long. At least not at the age of 50. Maybe a 20 year old could <G>.
This was a $4K option on my pool. Have never regretted it for a second.
Feel free to ask any questions if you have them. Sorry for the delay in answering. Haven't been on the forums for a bit.
Can I come live on your patio? Freaking awesome design!
You asked elsewhere about swim jets. Yes I have them. 3 total. They are not part of a "package" like endless pools or other suppliers. Ours are 4" nozzles each piped to a Single speed Pentair 2.5 HP WhisperFlo pump. Each pump has independent controls, so I can have any combination of 1, 2, or 3 pumps/nozzles on. Swimming against 7.5 HP is a blast...and tiring. Each of our outside nozzles are canted slightly in towards the center to make more of a consistent single jet stream.
Each pump is powered by 2 intakes around the pool, so lots of piping for that setup, but really fun. I like to do laps. Hard to do in a pool that is 34' long with the kick-outs. Some nights I do 100 of those laps, other nights I just swim against the jets.
The jets are also hooked to an air intake pump, so when they go on, it goes on. Really froths the water. Swimming freestyle against that can be challenging up close. Of course you have the same issue in the ocean. Swimming breaststroke is easier to maintain over longer times and easier to breathe. I can do a breaststroke and get all the way up to the pumps and stay there a few inches away, but it takes EFFORT and is not maintainable for long. At least not at the age of 50. Maybe a 20 year old could <G>.
This was a $4K option on my pool. Have never regretted it for a second.
Feel free to ask any questions if you have them. Sorry for the delay in answering. Haven't been on the forums for a bit.
@eqbob,
Thanks for the info on your setup!!!
With the jets, are you able to have current flow without the air? What does the the air intake pump do exactly? I've looked at some videos of Badu Jets, and this seems to be how they function (air injected to water flow). Does it (the air bubble flow) cause any issues staying oriented and on center?
Thanks!!
plat.
Thanks for the info on your setup!!!
With the jets, are you able to have current flow without the air? What does the the air intake pump do exactly? I've looked at some videos of Badu Jets, and this seems to be how they function (air injected to water flow). Does it (the air bubble flow) cause any issues staying oriented and on center?
Thanks!!
plat.
I'm going to change my answer a bit. I just went and tested to make sure I was telling you correctly. The jets are hooked up to an air suction, not an air blower. I apologize for the mistake in my previous post. The air blower is for the spa jets. As soon as I turn on any of the swim jet pumps, the system starts sucking air through that suction pipe as well, which is a vertical pipe, about 4' tall, next to the pad with the intake facing the house. So the injected air is not powered by a separate process. I'm actually not sure where in the system the air intake meets the water.
My nozzles are set into the gunnite, so no issues staying oriented and on center. They are relatively near the surface. I can measure how far if you want.
When I had to drain some pool water because I was stupidly believing my salt cell in cold water and oversalted the water, I turned the jets on during the refill. Those puppies easily shot water 3/4 the length of the pool.
Some additional thoughts.
3.5 is not too shallow if that's what you want. My ends are 3.5 and I have no issue with them. My middle is 5.5 and again, no issue. If family members ar all below 5 foot, consider something different perhaps in depth, but it is a swimming pool, not a walking around pool. That's MY perspective and certainly not representative of everyone's opinion. I built my pool to swim. Had I the space to go deeper on one end, I would have.
There's a lot of teeth gnashing that goes on about salt cells and flagstone and everyone has different experiences. Mine has been absolutely fine as have a number of people on this forum. We have flagstone, a salt cell, and no issues. I will reseal it this year. I've had a few small pieces (a layer) chip off but that has all been from weight walking around on top of it. Biggest piece has been about 2 square inches. It isn't pitted, isn't falling apart, etc. I also used huge pieces of the same flagstone as stepping stones to the pool, because we built our pool with no decking around it. Landscape yes, decking no. Wants a natural fit into the landscape look. Decking doesn't do that, for ME, plus it take yard any from the dogs.
I like your idea of a separate swim jet area. The jets are powerful enough to affect the water flow in the entir pool, so when I swim against the jets, my wife is usually out of the pool. I grew up swimming from an early age, she entered the water at about the age of 25 and never really learned how to swim and doesn't rally enjoy th jets that much. I can use the jets and swim and she can use it as a walking around pool and not worry about being in deep water.
My shelf bench (directly opposite the stairs) has 6 spa jets built into it and this where the air blower comes in. I can turn on spa jets or spa jets plus air blower. It's a way of doing a whirlpool approach without worrying about heating the water. Neither my wife nor I wanted anything to do with a ht tub pls the heating costs would be killer. Gas enters the house on the opposite side from the pad so just running a new line would have ben about 3K more. I have a nasty habit of passing out in hot tubs, so no need for one here. Lol.
I might have missed in in the previous posts, but what's your guess on the overall gallons in your design? Looks awesome!
3.5 is not too shallow if that's what you want. My ends are 3.5 and I have no issue with them. My middle is 5.5 and again, no issue. If family members ar all below 5 foot, consider something different perhaps in depth, but it is a swimming pool, not a walking around pool. That's MY perspective and certainly not representative of everyone's opinion. I built my pool to swim. Had I the space to go deeper on one end, I would have.
There's a lot of teeth gnashing that goes on about salt cells and flagstone and everyone has different experiences. Mine has been absolutely fine as have a number of people on this forum. We have flagstone, a salt cell, and no issues. I will reseal it this year. I've had a few small pieces (a layer) chip off but that has all been from weight walking around on top of it. Biggest piece has been about 2 square inches. It isn't pitted, isn't falling apart, etc. I also used huge pieces of the same flagstone as stepping stones to the pool, because we built our pool with no decking around it. Landscape yes, decking no. Wants a natural fit into the landscape look. Decking doesn't do that, for ME, plus it take yard any from the dogs.
I like your idea of a separate swim jet area. The jets are powerful enough to affect the water flow in the entir pool, so when I swim against the jets, my wife is usually out of the pool. I grew up swimming from an early age, she entered the water at about the age of 25 and never really learned how to swim and doesn't rally enjoy th jets that much. I can use the jets and swim and she can use it as a walking around pool and not worry about being in deep water.
My shelf bench (directly opposite the stairs) has 6 spa jets built into it and this where the air blower comes in. I can turn on spa jets or spa jets plus air blower. It's a way of doing a whirlpool approach without worrying about heating the water. Neither my wife nor I wanted anything to do with a ht tub pls the heating costs would be killer. Gas enters the house on the opposite side from the pad so just running a new line would have ben about 3K more. I have a nasty habit of passing out in hot tubs, so no need for one here. Lol.
I might have missed in in the previous posts, but what's your guess on the overall gallons in your design? Looks awesome!
@eqbob
Thanks for that added info!! I REALLY like that idea of a whirlpool deal on the shelf. Adding that to my list to consider!
Running my measurements through a pool volume calculator. I come up with:
Main pool (including sun shelf) ~ 10,500 gal
Swim Spa section 3600
Hot Tub, I am not sure. Whatever an average 8' x 7' tub would use.
Here is a Photobucket link to a newer and much better resolution image of the design:
http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah193/platipus7/Pool/Full%20Patio%20-%20Layout%201%20CROP%20V6_zps7ly2hv2w.jpg~original
Bub = Bubbler
Small circles with U = Umbrella sleeves
Small circles with V = Volleyball sleeves
Small circles with D = Deck Hook (to attach a line to hold onto in the swim spa)
The Light Gray border is coping at water level
The Dark Gray border is raised beam
The Teal border is perimeter overflow area
The Hot Tub/Spa is raised anywhere from 6" to 24" (not sure yet)
The Swim Spa is raised 24" - 36" with a 5' to 6' back wall. The little embedded rocks in the front and back walls are waterfalls. So a ~3' backwall waterfall into the swim spa and then another 2' - 3' water fall into the main pool. My goal is that when viewed from the patio, it blends and appears to be one unified waterfall water feature.
Thanks!
plat.
Thanks for that added info!! I REALLY like that idea of a whirlpool deal on the shelf. Adding that to my list to consider!
Running my measurements through a pool volume calculator. I come up with:
Main pool (including sun shelf) ~ 10,500 gal
Swim Spa section 3600
Hot Tub, I am not sure. Whatever an average 8' x 7' tub would use.
Here is a Photobucket link to a newer and much better resolution image of the design:
http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah193/platipus7/Pool/Full%20Patio%20-%20Layout%201%20CROP%20V6_zps7ly2hv2w.jpg~original
Bub = Bubbler
Small circles with U = Umbrella sleeves
Small circles with V = Volleyball sleeves
Small circles with D = Deck Hook (to attach a line to hold onto in the swim spa)
The Light Gray border is coping at water level
The Dark Gray border is raised beam
The Teal border is perimeter overflow area
The Hot Tub/Spa is raised anywhere from 6" to 24" (not sure yet)
The Swim Spa is raised 24" - 36" with a 5' to 6' back wall. The little embedded rocks in the front and back walls are waterfalls. So a ~3' backwall waterfall into the swim spa and then another 2' - 3' water fall into the main pool. My goal is that when viewed from the patio, it blends and appears to be one unified waterfall water feature.
Thanks!
plat.
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I've got nothing to add or change. I think you nailed it! I like the 12" tanning ledge. Ours is 6ish and 12 will be better. Make sure it is 12" water depth and not 12" to coping. I think it's time to start digging!
My only comment is you've got a boatload of LED lights. I'm presuming those are underwater, Pentair intellibrite or something equivalent. IF so, you wouldn't need all of those. For example, in my pool, which is 34' long, the LED is at one end and the swim jets at the other. I can see perfectly fine with that puppy on 30' away and underwater, on virtually any color setting (and I'm halfway blind anyhow). Looks like your plan shows one to the left of the swim jets. You'll blind your eyes trying to swim with that on in your vision.
Same comment on main pool. looks like you've got 3 and doubtful you'd need that many. I like the concept of the 2 on the insets on the house side. To me, the one on the right side is overkill.
But...if you've got them all independently controllable, you'd obviously be able to create just about any custom look you want.
We have our light programmed to go on from 9-11 on Friday and Saturday nights and do whatever theme it is set to at the time. It's comforting to look out and see soft lighting changing...even in the dead of winter <G>.
How many swim jets are you planning to use?
Just my thoughts and worth as much as you paid for them.
Same comment on main pool. looks like you've got 3 and doubtful you'd need that many. I like the concept of the 2 on the insets on the house side. To me, the one on the right side is overkill.
But...if you've got them all independently controllable, you'd obviously be able to create just about any custom look you want.
We have our light programmed to go on from 9-11 on Friday and Saturday nights and do whatever theme it is set to at the time. It's comforting to look out and see soft lighting changing...even in the dead of winter <G>.
How many swim jets are you planning to use?
Just my thoughts and worth as much as you paid for them.