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Thread: New liner / total water refill

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    astronaut888's Avatar
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    New liner / total water refill

    Been all over the site for the past couple of days
    Just replaced liner in my 20k pool as well as sand filter and pump

    Previously used stingy sticks etc for the past 10 years
    CYA levels were so off the charts that I couldn't properly ever get my chemistry correct

    Excited to get started with taking care of the water properly using the methods detailed on this site

    Have plenty of bleach, borax, baking soda , muriatic acid, cyuranic acid ( to get proper initial levels )

    Problem is - I can't find ANYWHERE on the site that details how to go about an INITIAL water balancing
    I see the post regarding starting up a new plaster pool and a temporary seasonal pool
    But don't see anything with regards to initial setup for vinyl pool

    Curious about what order to start balancing

    Initial TA is 20
    pH is around 7.3
    Chlorine reading 0
    CYA level is understandably zero

    Pool guy suggested getting TA right initially and I have started doing so using pool calculator for 20k

    Can anyone help guide me in finding where on the site to start?
    Was planning on getting TA right
    Then making sure pH was right and then moving on to FC
    Is this an ok way to approach ?

    Also - was planning on adjusting pH w muriatic acid / borax accordingly
    Is this alright?

    Really wanna do things right to start with and keep up with the pool daily as best as I can this summer

    Thanks all!
    20K gal, IG vinyl, 1 1/2 HP Hayward Super Pump , 100lb sand, installed 2000 - new liner/filter/pump March 2014
    TF-100 test kit

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    Richard320's Avatar
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    Re: New liner / total water refill

    Get some bleach in there right away. While that's mixing, mess around with the CYA granules and get them in a sock suspended in front of the return or dangling off a floating toy. If you scroll waaaay down on http://www.troublefreepool.com/calc.html to where it says Effects of Adding Chemicals, you'll see that the Baking Soda you need will have very little effect on pH. By the time you're done fussing with the CYa, the bleach should be mixed enough to add the Baking Soda.

    Underestimate what you need; if anything comes up short, it's easy enough to add more later. Most pools aren't as big as manufacturers claim they are. Calculate volume using water depth, not sidewall height.

    Since you're starting with fresh water, you have some breathing room; no algae to deal with right off the bat. Relax. It'll all be balanced long before the water's warm enough to get in.
    16K freeform gunite with spa; Pentair 4000 DE filter; Century Whisperflow 1 HP; Pentair Minimax heater.
    Troublefree does not mean Maintenancefree. It's like brushing your teeth: You can spend a couple minutes a day and pennies a week or go to the dentist once a year and spend several thousand dollars.
    A pool is like a pet - you have to feed it every day, even the days you don't want to play with it!

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    Administrator Leebo's Avatar
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    Re: New liner / total water refill

    Welcome to the site!

    For starters, what test kit did you use when testing? The reading of 20 for the TA is a bit questionable. I'd hesitate suggesting making any major changes until we know your numbers can be accurately tested.

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    astronaut888's Avatar
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    Re: New liner / total water refill

    Quote Originally Posted by Leebo View Post
    Welcome to the site!

    For starters, what test kit did you use when testing? The reading of 20 for the TA is a bit questionable. I'd hesitate suggesting making any major changes until we know your numbers can be accurately tested.
    Used the tf -100 from TFTestkits
    Did it several times w same results
    Would you anticipate municipal H2O alkalinity to be much higher?
    20K gal, IG vinyl, 1 1/2 HP Hayward Super Pump , 100lb sand, installed 2000 - new liner/filter/pump March 2014
    TF-100 test kit

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    Administrator Leebo's Avatar
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    Re: New liner / total water refill

    I'd hold off on worrying a ton about bleach and CYA for a few seconds and bump the TA up some in this case. A TA level of 20 can allow for the pH to swing wildly all over the place. If the pH drops very low (say 6.5) then damage to the liner or metals in the equipment can occur rather quickly. Start off by bumping up the TA level some in steps. Aim for around a 70ppm starting point, but don't just rush right into it. Start off by adding enough baking soda using PoolMath to hit a 50ppm mark. Then retest the TA and add more baking soda to hit the 60ppm mark. Do this rather than a large "jump" in raising your TA mark. If you add a large amount at once you run the risk of dumping in to much and ending up with a TA reading that is to high. Just add the baking soda to the water and allow the pump to run for around 30minutes between tests. Once you're levels are around 60-70ish you'll be OK to add your CYA and chlorine.

    A location will also help us out a bit in determining a good set of levels for your pool, as what's good in the southwest doesn't always work the best on the east coast.

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    Re: New liner / total water refill

    Columbia South Carolina
    20K gal, IG vinyl, 1 1/2 HP Hayward Super Pump , 100lb sand, installed 2000 - new liner/filter/pump March 2014
    TF-100 test kit

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    Re: New liner / total water refill

    Added about 18lbs of baking soda today at about noon - prior to posting(!)
    Presently reading at 70 - maybe 80 depending on how red I'm looking for the solution to change to

    Hopefully I haven't goofed and raised too high and starting off with a bad start !!
    20K gal, IG vinyl, 1 1/2 HP Hayward Super Pump , 100lb sand, installed 2000 - new liner/filter/pump March 2014
    TF-100 test kit

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    Re: New liner / total water refill

    If your confident it's in the 70-80 range you'll be fine there.
    Jeff
    24'x54" AG Morada RTR (by wilbar) 13'500 gal. Hayward Powerflo Matrix 1hp 2 speed. Hayward Perflex EC65 DE filter.

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    Re: New liner / total water refill

    That's certainly the reading presently - just concerned that I overdid it all at once
    Will feel better if still reading there tomorrow
    Only about 8 hrs passed after adding baking soda until the second reading
    Shoulda gone slower (!)
    20K gal, IG vinyl, 1 1/2 HP Hayward Super Pump , 100lb sand, installed 2000 - new liner/filter/pump March 2014
    TF-100 test kit

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    Re: New liner / total water refill

    I believe you'll be fine. 😎
    Jeff
    24'x54" AG Morada RTR (by wilbar) 13'500 gal. Hayward Powerflo Matrix 1hp 2 speed. Hayward Perflex EC65 DE filter.

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    Administrator Leebo's Avatar
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    Re: New liner / total water refill

    You'll be just fine. The baking soda mixes up rather quickly with the pump running, and shows up on the tests quickly as well. Tests such as CYA you really wanna crawl, as it may not show up on the test for a week. If you're showing 70-80 now, your results are correct. Even if you went higher, it would just mean your pH will have the tendency to raise quicker than if your TA was lower, and take a touch more acid to lower. Don't worry about this anymore, you're a-ok!

    Next get some cya and chlorine in the pool. I dump the cya into a sock, then toss the sock into the skimmer basket, keeping the pump running. Allow it to dissolve slowly. Start off by aiming for a 40ppm mark. Then start daily testing your water keeping your FC around 6ppm and your pH between 7.2/7.8.

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    Re: New liner / total water refill

    How much would go into sock based upon what pool calculator says to add?
    Do most folks add a certain fraction of what is called for on the calculator as to not get too much CYA in the mix?
    I certainly (!) don't want high CYA level EVER again ! And am happy to go slow
    Once CYA is fully dissolved - how long before I can trust my reading before determining if I need more ?
    20K gal, IG vinyl, 1 1/2 HP Hayward Super Pump , 100lb sand, installed 2000 - new liner/filter/pump March 2014
    TF-100 test kit

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    Re: New liner / total water refill

    So
    Can I begin to add CYA and get the CYA level up without addressing chlorine at the same time?
    Meaning - can I simply add CYA after getting alkalinity where I want it and THEN begin to add bleach to get chlorine correct?
    20K gal, IG vinyl, 1 1/2 HP Hayward Super Pump , 100lb sand, installed 2000 - new liner/filter/pump March 2014
    TF-100 test kit

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    Re: New liner / total water refill

    Your water needs chlorine to prevent algae. What I would do is get enough chlorine (bleach) to get you to 2-3ppm FC while your CYA is dissolving. When the CYA is all dissolved adjust your FC level for the CYA level you aimed for. Just assume the CYA level you aimed for is there. It won't fully register on a test for close to a week. 😎
    Jeff
    24'x54" AG Morada RTR (by wilbar) 13'500 gal. Hayward Powerflo Matrix 1hp 2 speed. Hayward Perflex EC65 DE filter.

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    Administrator Leebo's Avatar
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    Re: New liner / total water refill

    Use PoolMath to start by aiming by a 40ppm CYA mark. Then see what your FC drop is per day. If you're adding more than 2ish ppm of chlorine per day then bump your cya up to 50. Just depends on your pool. Keep in mind PoolMath isn't telling you what to put into your pool to make it stay clear. It's just telling you what you need to do to meet the "goals" YOU set.

    You can add the chlorine and the CYA at the same time. I wouldn't wait until you get your TA where you want it....go ahead and start now. All the baking soda is mixed up, so there's no chance of any chemical reaction.

    Steps I'd suggest tonight.......
    1. Add 40PPM CYA (use PoolMath to figure out how much you need to add)
    2. Add 3PPM Chlorine
    3. Do a full set of tests (minus CYA) tomorrow and repost your results. We'll help you out more then.

    The CYA test can take up to a week before the results can be 100% trusted. After you add the CYA, wait a week before retesting. Assume however you have the 40PPM after all the CYA is dissolved, usually takes about 12 hours or so. Having any CYA in your water is better than zero CYA, so the sooner you can get the CYA and Chlorine in there the better.

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    Re: New liner / total water refill

    Thanks for the replies!!
    I am sooooo wary of getting my CYA too high bc of my past astronomical CYA levels after 10 years of stingy sticks etc
    I started w only a pound of CYA in my sock tonight as I have never added it in this fashion - or at all for that matter!
    I will add what pool calculator called for tomorrow ( can't remem right off the bat - from zero to 40 in 20k gallons fresh water )
    Once I dissolve the proper amount of CYA I will go ahead and add bleach
    Will add bleach along with next sock full of cya and test 24 hours later - hope this is ok

    Also - the initial raising of the TA seemed to perhaps kick the pH up slightly - is this possible?
    20K gal, IG vinyl, 1 1/2 HP Hayward Super Pump , 100lb sand, installed 2000 - new liner/filter/pump March 2014
    TF-100 test kit

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    Administrator Leebo's Avatar
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    Re: New liner / total water refill

    As long as you know what you're adding to your pool, your cya levels won't get too high. Now that you've got the tools to test/track increases of levels you'll start to learn your water and what is needed. Don't get bogged down with worry, it's only water.

    I would toss in a bit of chlorine tonight however (say 4cups of 8% bleach) to fight off anything that may try to grow.

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    Re: New liner / total water refill

    It's calling for right around 6lbs
    That sound about right for a 30k pool that started at zero CYA
    20K gal, IG vinyl, 1 1/2 HP Hayward Super Pump , 100lb sand, installed 2000 - new liner/filter/pump March 2014
    TF-100 test kit

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    Administrator Leebo's Avatar
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    Re: New liner / total water refill

    Make sure you changed it to 20k gallons.....but about 6lbs is right.

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    astronaut888's Avatar
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    Re: New liner / total water refill

    Quote Originally Posted by Leebo View Post
    As long as you know what you're adding to your pool, your cya levels won't get too high. Now that you've got the tools to test/track increases of levels you'll start to learn your water and what is needed. Don't get bogged down with worry, it's only water.

    I would toss in a bit of chlorine tonight however (say 4cups of 8% bleach) to fight off anything that may try to grow.
    Thanks
    I added 4 cups just now with the first pound of CYA still dissolving

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Leebo View Post
    Make sure you changed it to 20k gallons.....but about 6lbs is right.
    I did change it
    And it came to about right at 6 lbs
    Crazy spooked to get it too high so will still likely undershoot at first
    20K gal, IG vinyl, 1 1/2 HP Hayward Super Pump , 100lb sand, installed 2000 - new liner/filter/pump March 2014
    TF-100 test kit

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