Recommended levels

[JasonLion]

Formatting like this is possible:

[tr:1x2wd3f9][td:1x2wd3f9] Vinyl [/td:1x2wd3f9][td:1x2wd3f9] with Bleach

• 
  FC 3-7
  pH 7.2-7.8
  TA 70-90
  CH 50-300
  CYA 30-50

[/td:1x2wd3f9][td:1x2wd3f9] with SWG

• 
  FC 3-5
  pH 7.5-7.8
  TA 60-80
  CH 50-300
  CYA 70-80

[/td:1x2wd3f9][td:1x2wd3f9] with Trichlor

• 
  FC 3-5
  pH 7.2-7.8
  TA 100-120
  CH 50-300
  CYA 30-50

[/td:1x2wd3f9][/tr:1x2wd3f9][tr:1x2wd3f9][td:1x2wd3f9] Plaster [/td:1x2wd3f9][td:1x2wd3f9] with Bleach

• 
  FC 3-7
  pH 7.2-7.8
  TA 70-90
  CH 250-350
  CYA 30-50

[/td:1x2wd3f9][td:1x2wd3f9] with SWG

• 
  FC 3-5
  pH 7.5-7.8
  TA 60-80
  CH 250-350
  CYA 70-80

[/td:1x2wd3f9][td:1x2wd3f9] with Trichlor

• 
  FC 3-5
  pH 7.2-7.8
  TA 100-120
  CH 250-350
  CYA 30-50

[/td:1x2wd3f9][/tr:1x2wd3f9][tr:1x2wd3f9][td:1x2wd3f9] Fiberglass [/td:1x2wd3f9][td:1x2wd3f9] with Bleach

• 
  FC 3-7
  pH 7.2-7.8
  TA 70-90
  CH 200-300
  CYA 30-50

[/td:1x2wd3f9][td:1x2wd3f9] with SWG

• 
  FC 3-5
  pH 7.5-7.8
  TA 60-80
  CH 200-300
  CYA 70-80

[/td:1x2wd3f9][td:1x2wd3f9] with Trichlor

• 
  FC 3-5
  pH 7.2-7.8
  TA 100-120
  CH 200-300
  CYA 30-50

[/td:1x2wd3f9][/tr:1x2wd3f9][/table:1x2wd3f9]
With some effort that could probably be improved a bit, though BBCode is a bit limiting.
Edited several times to play with various options.

 

[duraleigh]

Perhaps it's because we have been discussing it but that's absolutely recognizable and quick to perceive.

Nice work, Jason.

If we get a couple more folks to chime in (Richard and TMQ and Seanb) I could deal with that as a standard I could refer to.

I only say "deal with that" to reemphasize my first choice would be one catch-all set of numbers like PF had (and worked with) for years. That said, I understand the desire to be somewhat more technical and, since it appears we're headed that route, that table is a very, very nice compromise.

 

[Butterfly]

Very nice formatting, Jason.

I like it.

 

[duraleigh]

Perhaps a 4th column on the left (narrower) that listed the pool surface so it wouldn't have to be repeated three times accross.

On another note, Almost all the SWG Man.'s say 60-80ppm and I am reluctant to advise anything other than that.

30-60ppm for bleach pools with be more in line for me. I personally am aware of a few in the 70's+ but 30-60 seems very acceptable. (although, you old PF folks will remember 20-30 being "ideal" only a few years ago)

 

[JasonLion]

I added row and column headings to the existing table so you can get a sense of what it might look like. At the moment I don't like them, but I could go either way. If I remove the headings in each box the table will get smaller and it will be easier to "get lost" in the sea of numbers.

 

[Guest]

I think it is simplier that way, you find the right section, and read the numbers.

I can see how that simplifies things. The question is how much of that do we do and is it still simpler by the time we are done.

Pool surface and chlorine source both change the numbers for large numbers of people. Do we split out chlorine source into three categories: dichlor/trichlor, SWG, and bleach/cal-hypo/lithium-hypo, making a total of nine tables (three pool surfaces with each of three chlorine sources)?
No, you are complicating it again! The ONLY difference would be where to put the TA for stabilized vs unstabilized and SWGs. I would not even get into high vs low aeration but treat that as special case.
I suppose that having nine tables isn't the end of the world but it does start to strain the simplicity. I hesitate to break things out by pool surface and not by chlorine source.
Like I said the only real difference is where you are putting the TA
Amount of aeration, amount of sunlight, CH/TA level of fill water, and indoor/outdoor affect the numbers for lower numbers of people. I have no problem leaving these factors out of the table. Presumably they would be mentioned below the table with either brief commentary or links to more information.

 

[Guest]

Formatting like this is possible:

[tr:3o2muamq][td:3o2muamq][/td:3o2muamq][td:3o2muamq] Bleach [/td:3o2muamq][td:3o2muamq] SWG [/td:3o2muamq][td:3o2muamq] Trichlor [/td:3o2muamq][/tr:3o2muamq][tr:3o2muamq][td:3o2muamq] Vinyl [/td:3o2muamq][td:3o2muamq] Vinyl with Bleach

• 
  FC 3-6
  pH 7.2-7.8
  TA 70-90
  CH 50-300
  CYA 30-50

[/td:3o2muamq][td:3o2muamq] Vinyl with SWG

• 
  FC 3-6
  pH 7.2-7.8
  TA 60-80
  CH 50-300
  CYA 70-80

[/td:3o2muamq][td:3o2muamq] Vinyl with Trichlor

• 
  FC 3-6
  pH 7.2-7.8
  TA 100-120
  CH 50-300
  CYA 30-50

[/td:3o2muamq][/tr:3o2muamq][tr:3o2muamq][td:3o2muamq] Plaster [/td:3o2muamq][td:3o2muamq] Plaster with Bleach

• 
  FC 3-6
  pH 7.2-7.8
  TA 70-90
  CH 250-350
  CYA 30-50

[/td:3o2muamq][td:3o2muamq] Plaster with SWG

• 
  FC 3-6
  pH 7.2-7.8
  TA 60-80
  CH 250-350
  CYA 70-80

[/td:3o2muamq][td:3o2muamq] Plaster with Trichlor

• 
  FC 3-6
  pH 7.2-7.8
  TA 100-120
  CH 250-350
  CYA 30-50

[/td:3o2muamq][/tr:3o2muamq][tr:3o2muamq][td:3o2muamq] Fiberglass [/td:3o2muamq][td:3o2muamq] Fiberglass with Bleach

• 
  FC 3-6
  pH 7.2-7.8
  TA 70-90
  CH 200-300
  CYA 30-50

[/td:3o2muamq][td:3o2muamq] Fiberglass with SWG

• 
  FC 3-6
  pH 7.2-7.8
  TA 60-80
  CH 200-300
  CYA 70-80

[/td:3o2muamq][td:3o2muamq] Fiberglass with Trichlor

• 
  FC 3-6
  pH 7.2-7.8
  TA 100-120
  CH 200-300
  CYA 30-50

[/td:3o2muamq][/tr:3o2muamq][/table:3o2muamq]
With some effort that could probably be improved a bit, though BBCode is a bit limiting.
Edited several times to play with various options.

Don't need all that.....just three headings for each pool type and under the levels put the options that apply, for example under CYA put 30-50 ppm , with SWG 70-80 ppm. I would not even complicate it by putting different TA for SWG and unstabilized chlorine 70-90 uncorrected is a fine starting place. If you give too much info you will only confuse people. just put a note that every pool is different and some allowances might need to be made for special circumstances.

 

[Guest]

On another note, Almost all the SWG Man.'s say 60-80ppm and I am reluctant to advise anything other than that.

Not true, the recommend a range that goes as low as 30 ppm to 100 ppm, depending on the brand. 70-80 ppm seems to give optimal results and Zodiac, who recommends a wild range of 50-100 ppm says that if the pool gets a lot of sun or the temperature is high says that 70 or above is better.
Only a handful (goldline, autopilot, resiliance) recommend 60-80. Poolx recommends 80-100 so this is hard to generalize but 70-80 definately falls in the correct range for every SWG I have seen except the Intex (30-50 for that one).

 

[SeanB]

Looks nice. I'm happy to let you all standardize but here's my.02. I'd lose the trichlor column and maybe limit it to a foot note that TA will be 20 ppm higher than with bleach. Otherwise, it's great.

Nice job Jason!

 

[Guest]

You really don't need separate columns for SWGs either. The only difference REALLY is the CYA level and that can be handled by a footnote also.

 

[The Mermaid Queen]

Ok, I looked at the tables like I was a noob, and did not read all the text.

Along those lines, I think the table/chart is too confusing for the typical noob that has no clue about their pool. There a lot of numbers on there, and many of them are the same. They need something REALLY basic. As close to one size fits all (osfa) as you can get, with a couple footnotes for CYA with SWG and CH for plaster and FG.

BUT, I also see how the more advanced pool owner/chemist would like more info, and more specific numbers, so perhaps a simple osfa chart with a couple footnotes in the 'beginner' or basics area, and then the 4x4 table in the Deep End.............


Ok, now I will go back and read all the posts.....

 

[Guest]

Ok, I looked at the tables like I was a noob, and did not read all the text.

Along those lines, I think the table/chart is too confusing for the typical noob that has no clue about their pool. There a lot of numbers on there, and many of them are the same. They need something REALLY basic. As close to one size fits all (osfa) as you can get, with a couple footnotes for CYA with SWG and CH for plaster and FG.

THIS is what I've been saying!

I STILL propose something like this:
Plaster pool
FC 3-5
pH 7.5-7.8
TA 70-90 unstabilized CL and SWG. 100-120 stabilized CL
CH 250-350
CYA 30-50 (70-80 for SWG)

Fiberglass
FC 3-5
pH 7.5-7.8
TA 70-90 unstabilized CL and SWG, 100-120 stabilized CL
CH 220-320
CYA 30-50 (70-80 for SWG)

Vinyl
FC 3-5
pH 7.5-7.8
TA 70-90 unstabilized CL and SWG, 100-120 stabilized CL
CH 120-350
CYA 30-50 (70-80 for SWG)

It covers just about all the basics that are normally encountered and it's not overwhelming. The advantage to keeping the CYA at 30-50 is that the FC will be 3-5 for either a manally chlorinated pool or a SWG so there is one less 'exception' for a newbie to worry about.

 

[SeanB]

No need to SHOUT! We can read.

 

[SeanB]

Evan, sorry, but I actually find that more confusing, adding in the unstablized vs stabilized Cl.

I think the consensus favors that chart and that's what we are going for here - A set of numbers that we can all use. There will have to be some compromise involved.

 

[The Mermaid Queen]

Ok, I looked at the tables like I was a noob, and did not read all the text.

Along those lines, I think the table/chart is too confusing for the typical noob that has no clue about their pool. There a lot of numbers on there, and many of them are the same. They need something REALLY basic. As close to one size fits all (osfa) as you can get, with a couple footnotes for CYA with SWG and CH for plaster and FG.

THIS is what I've been saying!

I STILL propose something like this:
Plaster pool
FC 3-5
pH 7.5-7.8
TA 70-90 unstabilized CL and SWG. 100-120 stabilized CL
CH 250-350
CYA 30-50 (70-80 for SWG)

Fiberglass
FC 3-5
pH 7.5-7.8
TA 70-90 unstabilized CL and SWG, 100-120 stabilized CL
CH 220-320
CYA 30-50 (70-80 for SWG)

Vinyl
FC 3-5
pH 7.5-7.8
TA 70-90 unstabilized CL and SWG, 100-120 stabilized CL
CH 120-350
CYA 30-50 (70-80 for SWG)

It covers just about all the basics that are normally encountered and it's not overwhelming. The advantage to keeping the CYA at 30-50 is that the FC will be 3-5 for either a manally chlorinated pool or a SWG so there is one less 'exception' for a newbie to worry about.

I personally think this is much easier for the noob to read than the 4x4 table... pick your pool surface.
But could we get even simpler??

FC 3-5
pH 7.5-7.8
TA 70-90 unstabilized CL and SWG. 100-120 stabilized CL
CH varies (250-350 plaster) (220-320 fiberglass) (120-350 vinyl)
CYA 30-50 (70-80 for SWG)

And put in a caveat that #'s in these ranges will work for MOST pools, and if you have problems, you need to adjust accordingly, or ask questions, or something to that effect.

Keep in mind I am not arguing the actual values you all have proposed, though I agree we all need to be on the same page. Is .3 too small a pH range for the average noob to keep? I don't know. Is a suggested FC range of 3-5 better than 3-6? I don't know. I will follow the values you all set. Most of the advice I give is based on what I did wrong with my intex pools, and the understanding I have gleaned from folks here and at PF. I understand most all of the basic, and even some of the more complex chemistry, ((I now even understand why I always fight rising pH in fish tanks!)) though I tend to stay away from the Deep End because I glaze over if there are too many equations....

I do not dislike Jason's 4x4 table, but just think it is too much info for the average noob who has a green pool and cannot figure out why. All of this stuff is so overwhelming at first, and I guess I feel there are probably more folks that would benefit from a very basic table than a more detailed one, but I think once most people get a grasp on the basics (non-green water) they want to balance the rest of their values too!

 

[SeanB]

As usual, I think we've gotten off track here. Wasn't the idea to agree on a set of values to use when dispensing advice?

I don't think the presentation format is nearly as important as using a common set of numbers.

 

[The Mermaid Queen]

As usual, I think we've gotten off track here. Wasn't the idea to agree on a set of values to use when dispensing advice?

I don't think the presentation format is nearly as important as using a common set of numbers.

sorry, didn't mean to get this off track!

 

[SeanB]

Didn't mean you Carol - just in general - forest for the trees sort of thing we seem to do.

 

[JasonLion]

Summing up the discussion so far:

There are three possible presentations: one table, three tables by pool surface, nine tables by both pool surface and source of chlorine.

FC: 3-5 or 3-6 or 3-7 and perhaps add "and never below 3".
PH: 7.2-7.8 or 7.5-7.8
TA: I believe there is agreement on this one. 70-90 unstabilized CL and SWG. 100-120 stabilized CL, unless there are nine tables and then SWG becomes 60-80 (but perhaps this last is not agreed).
CH vinyl: 50-300 or 120-350
CH plaster: agreed on 250-350
CH fiberglass: 220-320 or something a little wider
CYA regular: 30-50 or 30-60
CYA SWG: 60-80 or 70-80
Salt: if you have a SWG look up manufacturers recommendations (should we have a list by manufacturer somewhere at the site?)

There will also be several footnotes, wording not clear:
This is just a starting point, Ask for advice on the forum
High aeration
Lots of sunlight
High CH fill water

Of all that, I think there are really only three substantive points to be discussed:
1, 3, or 9 tables
PH: 7.2-7.8 or 7.5-7.8
CH vinyl: 50-300 or 120-350

 

[randytsuch]

A couple more cents, and a question.

Should the ph be the same for all surfaces?
I don't know, but I thought it might be different for fiberglass vs plaster.

Would it make sense to have a "basic" version, with 3 tables, and an advanced version, with 9 or 12 tables, and some notes.
You guys could put your collective wisdom in the advanced version, for reference, but I would think the basic version would handle most questions.

Randy