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Thread: Check out these pool store recommendations...

  1. Back To Top    #1

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    Check out these pool store recommendations...

    I'm visiting my wife's aunt in Massachusetts.

    They have an 11,500 gallon, vinyl liner AGP with a sand filter.

    They use trichor, and have been shocking with cal hypo. Their water is greenish and cloudy, but you can still see the bottom drain.


    These are the pool store test results:

    Saturation index: -2 (Ideal -.3 - +.3)

    TDS: 1400 (Ideal <2500)

    CYA: 80 (Ideal 30 - 200)

    Total Chlorine: 10 (Ideal 1 - 3)

    Free Chlorine: 10 (Ideal 1 - 3)

    pH: 6.4 (Ideal 7.4 - 7.6)

    Total Alkalinity: 33

    Adjusted Total Alkalinity: 9 (Ideal 125 - 150)

    Total Hardness: 334 (Ideal 175 - 225)

    Optimizer+: 47 (Ideal 30 - 35)











    EXCEEDS RECOMMENDED LEVEL
    Use Chem Out ( http://www.parpools.com/page/poolcare/B ... m-Out.html )

    Your chlorine residual is too high. Lab tests used to measure chlorine residuals are inaccurate above 5 ppm. Other test results, such as pH and total alkalinity may also be affected. Use Chem Out according to label instructions to lower the residual. Circulate 8 - 12 hours, then retest the sanitizer. Dilute the sample with distilled water if necessary to acquire a reading. If it is still above 8 ppm, reapply. Do not swim until the chlorine residual returns to 1 - 3 ppm. Proceed to the next step.


    Saturation Index
    Your Saturation index is low. This indicates that your total alkalinity, pH, and/or total hardness ared out of balance. Low Saturation index can cause corrosion of equipment, surface damage, and eye and skin irritation. To properly balance the water, follow the instructions below.

    Total Alkalinity
    Add 21.5 pounds of Balance Pak 100 ( http://www.bioguard.com/Our_Products/Ba ... %C2%AE_100 )

    Your total alkalinity is low. Low total alkalinity can cause equipment corrosion, surface damage and swimmer discomfort. Divide the Balance Pak 100 dosage into thirds, predissolve and apply each third 4 - 6 hours apart to prevent staining. Add directly to the pool with the pump running. Wait 2 hours after the final application, then proceed to the next step. Wait 15 - 30 minutes after applying to swim.

    pH
    Add 1.25 pounds of Balance Pak 200 ( http://www.bioguard.com/Our_Products/Ba ... %C2%AE_200 )

    Your pH is too low. Low pH can cause equipment corrosion, surface damage, and can irritate swimmer's eyes and skin. Add Balance Pak 200 directly to the pool with pump running. Brush up any undissolved product. Wait 15 minutes, then proceed to the next step. Do not swim for 15 - 30 minutes after applying.

    Total Hardness
    Add 1.25 quarts of Scale Inhibitor
    Your total hardness and/or saturation index are high. Add Scale Inhibitor directly to the pool with the pump running. When the total hardness and saturation index are too great, the water can cloud and scale may form. Follow the label instructions for the maintenance dosage. After adding scale inhibitor, wait 15 minutes, then proceed to the next step. Do not swim for 15 minutes.


    -------------------------------------------------------------


    So, they instructed them to add the chem out first, and then tonight add the alkalinity increaser.

    Then, in the morning, add the pH up.



    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    To clarify, I'm a BBB user, and have ordered a test kit as a gift for them. I'm here until thursday, so I'm hoping to be able to get them on the right track.


    So, even though the pool store says the pH is too low (which it more than likely is, since they've been using trichlor), they tell them to use the Chem Out (what the **** is this stuff anyway?), even though it says "Adjust pH to 7.5 -8.0 for best results.": http://www.parpools.com/page/poolcare/B ... m-Out.html


    Thoughts about using that much alkalinity increaser? Scale inhibitor?


    My wife's Aunt and uncle trust this pool store, so I'm treading lightly to try to educate them and not offend....but I'm also hoping to be able to solve this problem for them before I leave, and I'm scared that if he follow all these recommendations, it will be impossible for me to do so.
    8,000 gallon, in ground, fiberglass pool with a cartridge filter.

  2. Back To Top    #2
    Mod Squad woodyp's Avatar
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    Re: Check out these pool store recommendations...

    Good luck on your "conversion".
    16x32x52" Steel Cornelius Miramar AGP Vinyl liner 13,100 gal. Buried 2 ft.
    2 Speed Hayward Power-Flo Matrix 85 g.p.m. 22" 250lb. sand filter hard plumbed
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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Check out these pool store recommendations...

    Until you get them to realize the money they are wasting at the trusted pool store, you will not likely get far.

    Especially when our advice is:
    -Raise the pH into the 7s
    -Replace 50% of the water (assuming the CYA is accurate)
    -SLAM the pool

    Hopefully you can take all the Biogard stuff back and save your money buying baking soda and borax.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
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  4. Back To Top    #4

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    Re: Check out these pool store recommendations...

    Just found out another hurdle exists.....the pool store owner is a long time friend of the pool owner ( my wife's uncle).
    8,000 gallon, in ground, fiberglass pool with a cartridge filter.

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    Isaac-1's Avatar
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    Re: Check out these pool store recommendations...

    What they said

    Ike
    Indoor 20x40 35,000 gallon vinyl pool with 1.5 HP 2 speed Jandy FloPro pump, Hayward EC75 Perflex DE filter, 11 4x12 Techno-Solis solar panels w/ Aquasolar controller, Aquabot Turbo T Robot Cleaner. Also LMI metering chlorine dispenser pump and HotSpring Jetsetter
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  6. Back To Top    #6

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    Re: Check out these pool store recommendations...

    Hmmm, 20 bucks worth of borax and baking soda would have it fixed in half an hour. Maybe 30 bucks worth of bleach to slam depending on if you need to drain or not based on CYA.

    If they go the pool store route it's likely the TA and pH will be fixed. The TA increaser is likely baking soda anyway. Those products do the exact same thing that backing soda and borax would do but for insane costs. The chem out is to remove chlorine and absolutely not needed.

    You could approach them and say "gimme a shot and we can compare the proposed costs".

    ps - the low TA and pH are from use of trichlor pucks. If they are going to continue with the pucks they'll have to constantly add baking soda to maintain TA over 120 and test TA weekly. I use pucks, it can be done you just have to keep a close eye on CYA and TA. Also remember pool store testing it notoriously inaccurate so their CYA is likely much higher.
    18x36 inground vinyl lined, Hayward sand filter and tablet chrolinator, approx 18k gallon

  7. Back To Top    #7

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    Re: Check out these pool store recommendations...

    Yep.... The alkalinity increaser is sodium hydrogen carbonate. They are saying to add 21.5 pounds to an 11500 gallon pool....


    Way too much, right?
    8,000 gallon, in ground, fiberglass pool with a cartridge filter.

  8. Back To Top    #8

    Re: Check out these pool store recommendations...

    Yeah...they should add 10lbs of baking soda and call it a day.
    17,000 inground gunite pool finished June 2013. Pentair variable speed something or another. Polaris cleaner, inline rainbow chlorinator. Using trichlor until CYA reaches 50-60.

  9. Back To Top    #9

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    Re: Check out these pool store recommendations...

    BioGuard® Chem Out® is mostly sodium sulfite which is a chlorine neutralizer (an alternative to sodium thiosulfate, though hydrogen peroxide would work just as well without any side effects). Apparently they think the 10 ppm FC is way too high and want them to lower it. They clearly do not understand the chlorine/CYA relationship.

    Good luck...
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
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  10. Back To Top    #10

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    Re: Check out these pool store recommendations...

    Quote Originally Posted by chem geek
    BioGuard® Chem Out® is mostly sodium sulfite which is a chlorine neutralizer (an alternative to sodium thiosulfate, though hydrogen peroxide would work just as well without any side effects). Apparently they think the 10 ppm FC is way too high and want them to lower it. They clearly do not understand the chlorine/CYA relationship.

    Good luck...
    I don't want to side track the OP and thanks for the chem understanding....

    But maybe OP can show this thread to the pool owners? I understand the familial relationship and the difficulty of overcoming that. But overall we are trying to help. I struggle sometimes when folks come over and see my pool and admire "WOW! You're water is so clear! You must "shock" it every week!"

    It's a difficult line to walk to not tell them they are doing it all wrong. It's their pool, their baby, they spend countless hours taking care of it every week. "here's your test results, dump this in and come back next week". THAT'S where the "a pool is difficult to maintain and you'll spend countless hours on it every week" comes from.

    A troublefree pool is troublefree by following what we teach, overcoming pool store advice is difficult.

    OP - show this thread and convert them. They will thank you.
    18x36 inground vinyl lined, Hayward sand filter and tablet chrolinator, approx 18k gallon

  11. Back To Top    #11

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    Re: Check out these pool store recommendations...

    How did the water get like that? Was it by following the pool store advice? Did they let it go or did they just go too long without testing? Just the fact that the water is in the condition it is, and the amount of product and money needing to correct it should be a big selling point for you.


    Sounds like you need to get a conversation going trying to get them to mention how expensive or how much of a headache the pool is and then POUNCE They can still use the pool store to keep giving them business if they must, buying liquid chlorine.


    Could show them any number of threads with pictures...especially pics from swamp to clear (if they doubt the effectiveness of TFP methods.) There are thousands? of people here that don't need to shock regularly, heck with our 24 round AGP with sand filter, I haven't had to shock or do anything except daily does of LQ since getting initial balance done.
    12500 gallons, 24 foot round above ground
    Hayward Sand filter, Pentair OptiFlo 1HP 2-Speed pump

  12. Back To Top    #12

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    Re: Check out these pool store recommendations...

    If your able to get them interested...here is a great topic I just read. VERY similar circumstances and its an awesome topic with lots of pictures and readings.

    Started with swamp green then got to cloudy light, green and couldn't get any better.
    tried maintaining normal levels with pool store testing and stalled with no progress.
    He came to TFP to get a clear pool and as he put it "stop hemorrhaging money at the pool store"

    He has a great before and after pic...and if that sparkly water doesn't interest them, or they doubt your recommendations I dunno what to tell you.
    http://<br /> <a href="http://www.tr...12-20.html</a>
    12500 gallons, 24 foot round above ground
    Hayward Sand filter, Pentair OptiFlo 1HP 2-Speed pump

  13. Back To Top    #13

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    Re: Check out these pool store recommendations...

    Hopefully, the tf 100 will be here monday and I'll be able to get the real cya level. Howver, i have a feeling that even if the cya is 200, I'll have a hard time convincing them to partially drain and refill.
    8,000 gallon, in ground, fiberglass pool with a cartridge filter.

  14. Back To Top    #14

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    Re: Check out these pool store recommendations...

    Question:

    Cal hypo also adds cya, correct?
    8,000 gallon, in ground, fiberglass pool with a cartridge filter.

  15. Back To Top    #15

    Re: Check out these pool store recommendations...

    Nope, Cal hypo adds chlorine and calcium, but no CYA
    23,000 IG Plaster pool w/ spa, Pentair FNS Plus 48 DE Filter, Hayward RS1000 Main pump, Polaris booster pump, CPSC48 SWG, Legend pool sweep. Dallas, Texas, Full sun, Taylor K-2006

  16. Back To Top    #16

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    Re: Check out these pool store recommendations...

    Ok, so maybe their cya actually could be 80....but that would still require at least a 50% water replacement......and with only 4 weeks left in their new england pool season....
    8,000 gallon, in ground, fiberglass pool with a cartridge filter.

  17. Back To Top    #17

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    Re: Check out these pool store recommendations...

    Quote Originally Posted by GuinnessPhish
    Ok, so maybe their cya actually could be 80....but that would still require at least a 50% water replacement......and with only 4 weeks left in their new england pool season....
    There is always spring for the water replacement. You might be more successful with a little education now to plant a seed. You don't have much time to demonstrate that your approach is better than what they have always done. If you don't have time to finish what you start it's going to look like your method doesn't work.

    My $.02 and it's worth what you paid for it.
    16,500 gallon, 18" x 38" Grecian; IG Vinyl, Hayward DE

  18. Back To Top    #18
    Patrick_B's Avatar
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    Re: Check out these pool store recommendations...

    Quote Originally Posted by GuinnessPhish
    Just found out another hurdle exists.....the pool store owner is a long time friend of the pool owner ( my wife's uncle).
    You will learn that under the best conditions people that have had pools for very long are extremely difficult to "convert". If there is anything I have learned it is this. So far, the only ones I've had success with are newbs and the desperate.

    With the situation you mention above, I wish you all the luck in the world because you are going to need every ounce of it.

    Please promise you will update this thread whatever happens. I truly hope you will prove me wrong, and I am sorry to overload your thread with my cynicism. GOOD LUCK and I mean it.
    TFP Moderator
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  19. Back To Top    #19

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    Re: Check out these pool store recommendations...

    Test kit will hopefully be here tomorrow. Their pool did clear up a bit, but is still cloudy and a bit greenish, but by no means a swamp.
    8,000 gallon, in ground, fiberglass pool with a cartridge filter.

  20. Back To Top    #20

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    Re: Check out these pool store recommendations...

    Take a picture of your water and kindly say that is how it is supposed to look.
    18x36 inground vinyl lined, Hayward sand filter and tablet chrolinator, approx 18k gallon

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