Who here are the water hydraulics experts?
- Thread starter Sabot
- Start date
I stand corrected, no I have not done that. My PVC is looking like cheese with all the holes in it now. 
I am getting a pressure regulator tomorrow from eBay which I am going to test out. If it fails then I might be open in cutting another hole in my PVC.
I am getting a pressure regulator tomorrow from eBay which I am going to test out. If it fails then I might be open in cutting another hole in my PVC.
Just for clarification purposes:
On my Liquidator, between 3 to about 3.5 on the flow indicator is the working area for me. In this range I can minimize the loss of FC. I do not attempt to maintain an exact number. When I need to raise the FC in small amounts, I adjust my Liquidator in the 3.5 to just under 4 on the flow indicator range. 4 and above is wide open and will spike the FC above 10ppm in 10 hours of pump on time.
It just occurred to me, I think I just thought of what is the root cause of the spike of FC in the pool when the solar is on. During my testing, I have noticed an initial spike on the flow indicator close to 4 flow indicator after the solar comes fully online. I don’t recall how long it takes for the spike to level off. From memory, it seems that the spike last for more then a minute but less then an hour. (I know not clear enough!) I will do some more testing and observations, posting my results.
On my Liquidator, between 3 to about 3.5 on the flow indicator is the working area for me. In this range I can minimize the loss of FC. I do not attempt to maintain an exact number. When I need to raise the FC in small amounts, I adjust my Liquidator in the 3.5 to just under 4 on the flow indicator range. 4 and above is wide open and will spike the FC above 10ppm in 10 hours of pump on time.
It just occurred to me, I think I just thought of what is the root cause of the spike of FC in the pool when the solar is on. During my testing, I have noticed an initial spike on the flow indicator close to 4 flow indicator after the solar comes fully online. I don’t recall how long it takes for the spike to level off. From memory, it seems that the spike last for more then a minute but less then an hour. (I know not clear enough!) I will do some more testing and observations, posting my results.
JasonLion said:
Look at the second drawing. The first one I figure you could try without having to plug a hole. I think I drew it like you said in the second one. I can't do much here since photo sharing sites are blocked and I don't have any drawing software.
Yes, the second picture is exactly what I was imagining. That approach really ought to work because both modes can be adjusted as needed.
- May 3, 2007
- 16,964
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
Sabot said:
Do you know if the readings on the flow indicator are proportional to flow? Is a level of 2, half the flow of level 4? From what you are describing, it may not be. What are the FC residuals with solar off for a few days and with solar on for a few days. It takes chlorine a day or so to stabilize and a new residual.
- May 3, 2007
- 16,964
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
Thanks gents for dialog today on the matter! I will report soon if the pressure regulator works at all. If not, it will go into the pile of stuff that I am collecting.
I hope most folks don't see my tweaks as a problem with the setup. It's just someone (me) trying to justify to their wives reasons to play with pool toys!
I hope most folks don't see my tweaks as a problem with the setup. It's just someone (me) trying to justify to their wives reasons to play with pool toys!
Just for clarification on John’s concept:
Solar side
Meter valve is closed to a value which will reduce the flow to the tank. Check on non-solar side prevents water from entering the non-solar PVC plumbing.
Non-Solar
Meter valve is fully open to allow maximum flow to the tank. Check on solar side prevents water from entering the solar PVC plumbing.
Wow… If that works, that is simple and cost effective! Hasa needs to put that into a revised addition of the pH Adjuster manual.
If my pressure valve test fails, then I will need to buy some caps for the holes and drill some new ones as shown.
Mark,
I noticed when I was re-reading your posts that you asked what pressure valve I was using. I put that on there but it’s not installed yet. I am getting the valve in today and I will install it over the weekend. The valve is a George Fischer V82 valve. (Here is the link: http://www.us.piping.georgefischer.com/ ... 99A2CDD8FA
Just to make sure I fully understand your question " is the flow indicator are proportional to flow" could you clearify what you mean for a newbie? I think I understand but...
Solar side
Meter valve is closed to a value which will reduce the flow to the tank. Check on non-solar side prevents water from entering the non-solar PVC plumbing.
Non-Solar
Meter valve is fully open to allow maximum flow to the tank. Check on solar side prevents water from entering the solar PVC plumbing.
Wow… If that works, that is simple and cost effective! Hasa needs to put that into a revised addition of the pH Adjuster manual.
If my pressure valve test fails, then I will need to buy some caps for the holes and drill some new ones as shown.
Mark,
I noticed when I was re-reading your posts that you asked what pressure valve I was using. I put that on there but it’s not installed yet. I am getting the valve in today and I will install it over the weekend. The valve is a George Fischer V82 valve. (Here is the link: http://www.us.piping.georgefischer.com/ ... 99A2CDD8FA
Just to make sure I fully understand your question " is the flow indicator are proportional to flow" could you clearify what you mean for a newbie? I think I understand but...
Some flow indicators have a calibrated linear scale. That means two on the scale is twice as much flow as one on the scale, three is three times as much, etc. Other flow indicators are non-linear, the increase from one scale position to the next might be very different at different parts of the scale. For example 1,2,3,4 might correspond to flow rates of 10,11,13,18, or some other not particularly obvious sequence.
I asked this a few weeks ago when I was talking with David Booker. He stated the markings on the flow indicator did not have any meanings. This started me to think of purchasing a calibrated flow meter (which are costly) After weeks of searching, I came across Dwyer Instruments. After talking to their tech support, I decided to try out the MMA-30. I had to special order the viton o-ring which put it into a 2 week lead time. I should be getting it real soon. I can configure it to have the meter valve built in or not. One issue that I have with the MMA-30, the Dwyer tech told me that in order for the flow meter to give an accurate reading I need to use the SS float due flow rate. I am going to have them send me some additonal float material so I can test them as well.
- May 3, 2007
- 16,964
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
Sabot said:
Sorry, I missed the previous link to the valve. According to the spec sheet the minimum pressure differential for this valve is 14 PSI. This means that your filter pressure must be well above that for the valve to operate. In additon, the outlet pressure is not adjustable below 7 PSI. so with solar off is your PSI 21 or above? If not, this valve may not work.
As for the flow indicator, it doesn't sound like the markings are calibrated in any way. I went back and looked at the flow measurements that you took at the various levels and I am a bit confused:
The time data is different between solar on and off while the GPM is the same. Were the fill levels different for solar on vs off? I would have expected the GPM levels to be the inverse of the time if a 1 gallon jug was used.
Also, what is the filter PSI with solar on and off?
Yep, I took a gamble on the valve. It's real hard to find any valves what works in the range needed.
I just estimated the GPM, they are not accurate. Being that I am not that great with math, I was hoping someone could get the exact GPM. I used a stop watch to time how long it took to fill a 1 gallon jug on each setting that is listed.
I just estimated the GPM, they are not accurate. Being that I am not that great with math, I was hoping someone could get the exact GPM. I used a stop watch to time how long it took to fill a 1 gallon jug on each setting that is listed.
- May 3, 2007
- 16,964
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
Sorry,
There is no noticable differance in the filter pressure. Which is holds around 9psi.
There is no noticable differance in the filter pressure. Which is holds around 9psi.
- May 3, 2007
- 16,964
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
Solar on:
5 - 1.7 oz/sec
4 - 1.3 oz/sec
3 - 0.9 oz/sec
2 - 0.5 oz/sec
1 - 0.3 oz/sec
Solar off:
5 - 1.2 oz/sec
4 - 1.0 oz/sec
3 - 0.7 oz/sec
2 - 0.5 oz/sec
1 - 0.3 oz/sec
If the flow meter were working properly, it should actually have the same flow reading for the same oz/sec solar on or off. The input pressure of the flow meter should not influence it's reading much so I suspect that there may be some inaccuracy in the readings due to placement of the meter. Note that the readings get closer for markings 1-3. This could also be that the test was longer and thus a bit more accurate. If I average both sets of numbers to improve accuracy:
5 - 1.4 oz/sec
4 - 1.1 oz/sec
3 - 0.8 oz/sec
2 - 0.5 oz/sec
1 - 0.3 oz/sec
So if the marker goes from 3 to 4 with solar on, then the flow rate increases by 1.4 which means your filter pressure should go up by 80%.
This doesn't sound right. Something else must be going on. I still maintain that the LQ flow rate should not change that much with solar on or off. Especially if there is no change in filter pressure with solar on or off. If there is no change in the filter PSI, there should be no PSI change at the input to the LQ. Therefore, no change in flow rate either.
Before modifying your plumbing I would double check all of your measurements and measure actual chlorine levels. You may be relying on erroneous readings from the flow meter.
5 - 1.7 oz/sec
4 - 1.3 oz/sec
3 - 0.9 oz/sec
2 - 0.5 oz/sec
1 - 0.3 oz/sec
Solar off:
5 - 1.2 oz/sec
4 - 1.0 oz/sec
3 - 0.7 oz/sec
2 - 0.5 oz/sec
1 - 0.3 oz/sec
If the flow meter were working properly, it should actually have the same flow reading for the same oz/sec solar on or off. The input pressure of the flow meter should not influence it's reading much so I suspect that there may be some inaccuracy in the readings due to placement of the meter. Note that the readings get closer for markings 1-3. This could also be that the test was longer and thus a bit more accurate. If I average both sets of numbers to improve accuracy:
5 - 1.4 oz/sec
4 - 1.1 oz/sec
3 - 0.8 oz/sec
2 - 0.5 oz/sec
1 - 0.3 oz/sec
So if the marker goes from 3 to 4 with solar on, then the flow rate increases by 1.4 which means your filter pressure should go up by 80%.
This doesn't sound right. Something else must be going on. I still maintain that the LQ flow rate should not change that much with solar on or off. Especially if there is no change in filter pressure with solar on or off. If there is no change in the filter PSI, there should be no PSI change at the input to the LQ. Therefore, no change in flow rate either.
Before modifying your plumbing I would double check all of your measurements and measure actual chlorine levels. You may be relying on erroneous readings from the flow meter.
When I recorded the flow rate, I tested each setting 3 times and average the 3 reading into what I reported. When it's not too hot outside, I will repeat. The higher rates where much more accurate for it didn't take long to fill that jug compaired to the 1-2 settings. Man that took forever!
Do you want me to post my FC & Flow Indicator Number? I test daily, so I have plenty of historic data.
To have an accurate flow meter, do I need to convert your readings to what ever flow meter unit of measure (Dwyer's use GPH for example)? Would I need a meter that reads from 0 - 50 GPH to ensure I am recording accurate flow rate readings?
Solar on:
<Setting>-<oz>= GPH
5-1.7=47.8125 gallon/hour [US]
4-1.3=36.5625 gallon/hour [US]
3-0.9=25.3125 gallon/hour [US]
2-0.5=14.0625 gallon/hour [US]
1-0.3=8.4375 gallon/hour [US]
Man, this stuff makes my mind foggy! Thanks for your support!!
Do you want me to post my FC & Flow Indicator Number? I test daily, so I have plenty of historic data.
To have an accurate flow meter, do I need to convert your readings to what ever flow meter unit of measure (Dwyer's use GPH for example)? Would I need a meter that reads from 0 - 50 GPH to ensure I am recording accurate flow rate readings?
Solar on:
<Setting>-<oz>= GPH
5-1.7=47.8125 gallon/hour [US]
4-1.3=36.5625 gallon/hour [US]
3-0.9=25.3125 gallon/hour [US]
2-0.5=14.0625 gallon/hour [US]
1-0.3=8.4375 gallon/hour [US]
Man, this stuff makes my mind foggy! Thanks for your support!!
- May 3, 2007
- 16,964
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
Sabot said:When I recorded the flow rate, I tested each setting 3 times and average the 3 reading into what I reported. When it's not too hot outside, I will repeat. The higher rates where much more accurate for it didn't take long to fill that jug compaired to the 1-2 settings. Man that took forever!
Usually, the longer a test is, the more accurate it will be since time measurement accuracy increases with increasing time. For example, a test that takes 10 seconds with a measurement accuracy of 1 second will have close to 10% error while a test that takes 100 secs with 1 second accuracy will have only 1% error. So accuracy usually increases with longer time measurements. Also, slower rates allow to hit the 1 Gallon mark easier as well.
Anyway, I am not really questioning the flow meter measurements so much. What is really puzzling is that the filter pressure does not change when solar is engaged. This is very unusual. Most experience 3-4 PSI rise. Is the solar on the ground? Do you have very large pipes? Could your filter guage be bad? Tell me a little about your solar setup.
If the filter pressure is really the same with and without solar, then there should be no change at all with the LQ flow rates. So we really need to get a handle on the filter pressure before looking at anything else.
I was afraid you say that! I went ahead and placed a service call with the PB to come out and check. I will also test it when I get home and watch it. I can't recall I watched the PSI gauge on the filter while the solar kicks on. I do record the PSI as part of my daily testing and data collecting scheme. When the solar is on/off it's always been 9psi. It does get water in the gauge gaurd, don't know if that would freeze it or not. I just thought the PSI gauge never moved since I have a very large filter. I have been toying with buying a Blue-White to put on the solar side. I am having a Blue-White put on the non-solar side in a week or so. (I have to do some PVC work which my solar guy will do for me.)
I have 2" Schedule 40 PVC.
The solar collectors are on two differant roofs (1'st story and 2'nd story) right above the equipment pad. I do remember the solarman (his trade name) put a ball valve up on the 1'st story. He talked about balancing the flow between the two roofs. When he talks "shop", my mind becomes foggy back when he did the install. Now that I have been exploring this, I am getting a better grip on terms and meanings. When he comes over to install my gauge, I can pick his brains a bit more. He and others always tell me that normally people don't dive into this stuff as much as I have been. I am weird that way I guess...
Wide view of my pad with the pipes going straight up to the solar:
This shows you the collectors:
This shows my shelf which I have the control meter and flow indicator on.
I have 2" Schedule 40 PVC.
The solar collectors are on two differant roofs (1'st story and 2'nd story) right above the equipment pad. I do remember the solarman (his trade name) put a ball valve up on the 1'st story. He talked about balancing the flow between the two roofs. When he talks "shop", my mind becomes foggy back when he did the install. Now that I have been exploring this, I am getting a better grip on terms and meanings. When he comes over to install my gauge, I can pick his brains a bit more. He and others always tell me that normally people don't dive into this stuff as much as I have been. I am weird that way I guess...
Wide view of my pad with the pipes going straight up to the solar:
This shows you the collectors:
This shows my shelf which I have the control meter and flow indicator on.
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