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Thread: Filter aids during AA treatment

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    Filter aids during AA treatment

    Reading the labels of 2 Ascorbic acid treatments, both recommended adding a "Filter Aid" to the filter before treating.
    I have seen no mention of such in this thread. Surely someone read the directions on the bottle?

    I can only assume this is that missing piece to filter out the lifted stains.

    Directions from ascorbic treatment: ("Stain Free")

    Natural Chemistry Stain Free Extra Strength 1.75lbs - 07395

    Extra Strength Stainfree is an all natural stain remover that contains a blend of industrial strength ascorbic acid. It quickly removes metal staining without adding phosphates to your water.

    All natural stain eliminator
    Tough on old set-in stains
    Compatible with all sanitizing systems
    Phosphate free
    Dosage:
    1lb per 10,000 gallons (38,000L)

    How to Apply:
    1. Balance pool water
    2. Lower chlorine level to at least 1ppm
    3. Add 1lb of Extra Strength StainFree per 10,000 gallons around the perimeter of the pool with the pump running
    4. Brush pool thoroughly. After brushing, if stains are not completely removed add more StrainFree Extra Strength
    5. Add a pulp based filter aid to your cartridge or sand filter. If you have a DE filter, make sure it is properly charged
    6. Add METALfree at a rate of 33.9oz (1L) per 20,000 gallons (75,000L)
    7. Vacuum pool slowly and thoroughly
    8. After 24 hours clean filter

    - Sand filters: backwash for at least 3 minutes and then rinse for 2 minutes
    - Cartridge filters: clean filter and filter tank thoroughly
    - DE filters: backwash and recharge with DE

    9. Use METALfree as a weekly maintenance product to guarantee a stain free pool

    Tips:

    A non-polymer filter aid must be used in sand filters with this product
    Do not add any chlorine or shock treatment until the pool surface has been thoroughly vacuumed and filter cleaned
    DE and cartridge elements should be removed and cleaned, sand filters backwashed

    One such filter aid product I found:
    Fiber Clear: The Safe DE Alternative and All-Purpose Filter Aid
    claims to filter water down to 2 microns.

    Thoughts on removing the metals forever by filtering....anyone tried?
    19k gal, STS1072R A.O. Smith C-Face Motor .75HP Full-Rated 2-Speed, Hayward Sand Filter

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Filter aids during AA treatment

    Many many many people have tried it, and it is extremely rare that it makes even the slightest difference if you use a filter aid or not. Every once in a very long while it will work, but not often enough for it to be worth the effort/expense of trying. If it actually did work that way there wouldn't be any point in their step 9, as the metals would be gone at that point.

    We have also found that MetalFree is not one of the preferred sequestrants. Certain other kinds of sequestrant are far more effective.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: Filter aids during AA treatment

    Well, I searched and searched, and at least you can dis-spell that theory here and now.

    What sequestrant do you recommend, and how often?

    I did not like the idea of adding sequestrant every week, which did seem to disprove this manufacturer's own claims.
    19k gal, STS1072R A.O. Smith C-Face Motor .75HP Full-Rated 2-Speed, Hayward Sand Filter

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Filter aids during AA treatment

    Sequestrants based on HEDP, phosphonic acid, or phosphonic acid derivatives are the most effective. ProTeam's Metal Magic and Jack's Magic The Pink Stuff (regular), The Blue Stuff (fresh plaster), and The Purple Stuff (salt) are some of the top sequestrants. You can also find many other brands with similar active ingredients, some of which are noticeably less expensive.

    How much you need to use varies from pool to pool. Jack's Magic sells a test kit, so you can target an appropriate level, which is well worth getting if you use sequestrant regularly.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    UnderWaterVanya's Avatar
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    Re: Filter aids during AA treatment

    An idea I have heard is if you have a metal-free source of water you can use the AA and drain and refill. Using the tarp method may be needed depending on water table.


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    Inlaws Pool Boy since June 14th 2012, Pool built ~ 2003, In-Ground, 16'x32'
    13500 gal, Vinyl Liner, Fiberglass Slide, TF-100 Test Kit, Hayward 210T
    sand filter, A.O. Smith 1.5HP main pump motor (C48L2N134C1),
    Hayward SuperPump (model ?), Polaris 380 & PB4 Booster Pump

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    Re: Filter aids during AA treatment

    This will be my first real crack at these stains.

    I had up until now been treating them as mustard algae (looks slimy right?) and I have Jack's Stain ID kit coming in the mail to get this straightened out once and for all.

    Want to turn my TPP* into a TFP!

    *Trouble-Prone-Pool

    My numbers, I always forget:
    PH 7.2
    TA 70 (raised from a recent 30)
    TC 6 (And stable, even with the SWG off for winter cold water)
    FC 6
    CH 130
    CYA 0 (I would work on this, but I will need to lower the TC anyway, so not for now)
    Salt 2850
    19k gal, STS1072R A.O. Smith C-Face Motor .75HP Full-Rated 2-Speed, Hayward Sand Filter

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Filter aids during AA treatment

    How are you testing CYA? If FC is 6, there really isn't much of a chance that CYA is actually zero. When CYA is zero you lose chlorine very quickly to sunlight. Even if you have a SWG constantly adding chlorine, it is unlikely that the SWG would be able to keep up with that loss.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: Filter aids during AA treatment

    Is there a trick to the TF-100 CYA test? The directions said it might "not work" the first time, but it was not specific.
    Perhaps I had a 20, but I could still just about make out the black dot at the bottom of the cylinder with the tube full to the top.

    Any tips?
    19k gal, STS1072R A.O. Smith C-Face Motor .75HP Full-Rated 2-Speed, Hayward Sand Filter

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Filter aids during AA treatment

    Was the water cold? The CYA test can give false low readings when the water you are testing is quite cold. The best approach is to bring a water sample indoors and allow it to warm up to room temperature before performing the CYA test.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    UnderWaterVanya's Avatar
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    Re: Filter aids during AA treatment

    Quick way to warm up is to put sample in a sealed bottle in warm water in sink.

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    Inlaws Pool Boy since June 14th 2012, Pool built ~ 2003, In-Ground, 16'x32'
    13500 gal, Vinyl Liner, Fiberglass Slide, TF-100 Test Kit, Hayward 210T
    sand filter, A.O. Smith 1.5HP main pump motor (C48L2N134C1),
    Hayward SuperPump (model ?), Polaris 380 & PB4 Booster Pump

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    Re: Filter aids during AA treatment

    Hey, so I finally got my Jacks test kit, and my chlorine had fallen to 3 so I could do the test.

    Seems that it is an Iron stain, as the first test was incredibly effective. Oddly, stain test 3 came close, it is the O2 Safe Shock.

    I fully expected a detailed analysis at the Jacks site, only to find them suggesting to just use the Stain remover that matches the one that worked best. No truly detailed analysis after all.

    So the Jack's Iron treatment will require 4 pounds = $150 worth.

    I know I can get standard AA for less..like $60. Any thoughts? The Jacks site mentions that you must use sequestrant or the stains will redeposit themselves. The Jack's pink stuff will run me around $60.

    Has anyone tried using DE to filter out the sequestered metals for good?
    19k gal, STS1072R A.O. Smith C-Face Motor .75HP Full-Rated 2-Speed, Hayward Sand Filter

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    Re: Filter aids during AA treatment

    Hey, so I completed my AA treatment today.

    Funny thing, 12 hours after lowering the chlorine to 0 and adding first the Algaecide and then the Vitamin C powder, there was a brown precipitate on the floor of the pool.

    I added the sequestrant at that time and brushed the pool, and whatever it was has not precipitated back out again.

    So, as far as bringing the chlorine back up, is it OK to just let the SWG run at 100% for a few days?
    This would make the chlorine rise VERY slowly. Or should I add bleach to help it come back up?
    19k gal, STS1072R A.O. Smith C-Face Motor .75HP Full-Rated 2-Speed, Hayward Sand Filter

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    Re: Filter aids during AA treatment

    Did you add any algaecide during the AA treatment? Have you added CYA to the appropriate level? If yes to both, then you could possibly let the swg bring the FC up, but I don't recommend it. I'd add bleach to get the FC where it needs to be then let the swg take over.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Filter aids during AA treatment

    At first with the SWG it is way too easy to overshot, bring FC up too high, and cause the stains to re-appear. As others have said, it is best to deal with things manually where you have more control.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: Filter aids during AA treatment

    Just added some CYA....my level had been near zero for some time now, although Jason could not believe it, since my FC has been holding up. Not as much sun this time of year, of course.

    I put enough in to get a level of 20ppm to start...getting it to 40 would use my whole bucket!

    Checking the FC now I am at 0.5ppm, up from zero in 24 hours of SWG operation.

    When you guys say to take it up slowly, just how slowly do you mean?

    Here is my timetable:
    1. Added Algaecide and Chlorine reducer, circulated 12 hours. FC=1.5 at start
    2. Added Ascorbic Acid, 1 pound/10,000 gallons, circulated 12 hours FC=0 at start
    3. Brushed pool, added sequesterant, circulated 12 hours
    4. Brushed pool, added FilterFibre (I know, it doesn't work), filtered for 24 hours
    5. Backwashed, and turned on SWG, filtered 24 hours. FC=0 at start
    6. Now, just added CYA FC=0.5

    Shall I cut back the SWG to 50%? Turn it off completely? Again, just how slowly am I bringing the FC back up?
    19k gal, STS1072R A.O. Smith C-Face Motor .75HP Full-Rated 2-Speed, Hayward Sand Filter

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Filter aids during AA treatment

    You don't want to raise the FC level by more than 1.0 in any given 24 hour period.

    If your CYA was really zero you would never have any FC in the late afternoon, even in low sunlight. CYA could still be fairly low, below the level the test can read, but it can't be really and truly zero.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

  17. Back To Top    #17

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    Re: Filter aids during AA treatment

    My SWG seems to be weaker than the ones you are used to, if I only got 0.5 in 24 hours.
    Of course, it is possible that I put too much of the Chlorine reducer, and was fighting that at first, not to mention any remaining ascorbic acid.

    I can test every 12 hours, so I will manage it that way, perhaps 0.5ppm per day.
    19k gal, STS1072R A.O. Smith C-Face Motor .75HP Full-Rated 2-Speed, Hayward Sand Filter

  18. Back To Top    #18
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    Re: Filter aids during AA treatment

    After an AA treatment there is a long period when FC will not go up, despite chlorine additions. Then FC suddenly starts going up. You appear to be making the classic mistake and assuming that because the initial increase went slowly that subsequent increases will also go slowly. While that is remotely possible, it is far far more likely that leaving the SWG on will now cause the FC level to shoot up to levels that will cause problems.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

  19. Back To Top    #19

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    Re: Filter aids during AA treatment

    Thanks, I'll lower it down to 50%.
    19k gal, STS1072R A.O. Smith C-Face Motor .75HP Full-Rated 2-Speed, Hayward Sand Filter

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    Re: Filter aids during AA treatment

    Funny thing about that....at 50% for 12 hours I got up to 1.5ppm. That's 8x more productive than the first 24 hours.

    Left the SWG off today, now I am back to 0.5ppm. So I lost it all in the same time it was originally made.

    Just measured the CYA it is at 25-30ppm
    (I hate that test. I could not clearly see the dot at 30ppm, but not truly invisible until 25ppm level.)

    Looks like the CYA goal is 70ppm, so off to add some more.
    19k gal, STS1072R A.O. Smith C-Face Motor .75HP Full-Rated 2-Speed, Hayward Sand Filter

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