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Thread: Sailinshuz - Advice Needed ...

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    Sailinshuz's Avatar
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    Sailinshuz - Advice Needed ...

    Folks! I am looking for input on my present dilemma:

    Specifically, I need to know if I can filter the water in my pool after treating with a flocculant. My Dad insisted we shock the pool, filter for 24 hours, and add flocculant to settle out the organic matter in suspension. Well, it's his pool and money, so I honored his request.

    In order to mix the added flocculant, I switched the multiport to recirculate, instead of filter, because no one is there to monitor the filter equipment. I am not an expert on flocculant and its effect within the filter. Plainly, I was fearful that the flocculant might cause a major pressure build up and cause equipment damage. So, recirculation seemed a wise choice.

    A week later, we are no closer to crystal blue water than we were when we removed the cover. I am sure we have a severe green algae problem, perpetuated by debris at the bottom of the pool. It seems logical that organic matter at the bottom of our pool would only promote further algae growth at a rate that a flocculant is useless with the live algae.

    In an aggressive effort to get ahead of the algae bloom, I added 9 gallons of household bleach (sodium hypochlorite) to our pool tonight, attempting to Super Chlorinate and kill some algae. I cannot be certain the concentration of Laura Lynn bleach is strong enough (6%) to work. I will check on it before work in the AM to see if I did any damage.

    Filter, filter, filter, 24/7, seems to be the universal advice I have encountered in looking for help on the web. What do you folks think? Can I filter the water in my pool after treating with a flocculant. Adding it, circulating the water for several hours, and shutting off the pump and waiting 24 hours appeared to have NOT dropped any suspend matter to the bottom.

    My pool is turbid and really green. I have adjusted the PH and TA to acceptable levels, shocked it repeatedly, and added flocculant without any improvement. What advice do you kind folks have? What should I do next based on the information presented here? I need good advice from solid experience. Let me know if additional information is need to form a recommendation. Thanks!

    Dave

    Pool Stats are:

    - Vinyl Liner
    - Size 40x20 Roman
    - Volume = approximately 36,000 gallons
    - PH = 6.8 - 7.2
    - TA = 100
    - CYA = ?
    - Color = Green as pond water
    - Pump and Motor = Pentair WhisperFlo (Model WFE-3) 3/4 HP
    - Filter AND Media = Tagelus TA60D Sand Filter filled with Zeosand

    Note: When the pool was open 2 years ago, we chlorinated with an Aqua Rite system for Salt Chlorination. Sadly, the system malfunctioned at the end of the season, after only a year of service from the unit. Currently, I have the Turbo Cell removed and stored until I can clear up my pool.
    Dave
    Cartersville, GA
    IG Vinyl | 36K gal | 60 gpm Sand Filter | 3/4 hp pump

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    Re: Sailinshuz - Advice Needed ...

    Shocking is a process not a one time addition of chlorine.
    Did you read the link linen gave you for defeating algae? POOL School upper right of page.
    18' x 42" Intex (4786 Gal @ 80% capacity) Intex 8110 SWCG, 2000 GPH cartridge filter.
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    x2rider's Avatar
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    Sailinshuz - Advice Needed ...

    If I remember correctly when you use flocculant, you run pump on recirc for a certain amount of time, shut the pump off say in the evening, and in the morning, there should be a cloud of debris on the floor of the pool which you vac to waste, then backwash and go back to normal filter schedule.

    Until you know cya, you're not going to know what level you need to bring the chlorine level up to in order to fight this, which may involve changing some water out first so you don't waste even more money on chlorine.
    27000 gal 18x36 rectangle In-Ground built in 1978
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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: Sailinshuz - Advice Needed ...

    What test kit or store did you use to get those numbers?
    What is your FC & CC?

    Have you scooped out as much debris as possible? If so then begin shocking. If not then keep scooping.

    After 2½ years I suspect your CYA is zero. If that proves to be true your shock level is 10 ppm. However, I would begin the shocking process and then add enough CYA to get to about 30 ppm. Then raise your Shock level to match (12 ppm) the next day. You need to retest and adjust the FC back to shock level as often as every hour.

    Once you get it all cleaned up we can work on the swcg.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
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    Re: Sailinshuz - Advice Needed ...

    Quote Originally Posted by George N
    Shocking is a process not a one time addition of chlorine.
    Did you read the link linen gave you for defeating algae? POOL School upper right of page.
    Hi George. Haven't read it yet, but I plan to ASAP. Thanks for the direction on shocking. I have much to learn, which is why I am here!
    Dave
    Cartersville, GA
    IG Vinyl | 36K gal | 60 gpm Sand Filter | 3/4 hp pump

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    Re: Sailinshuz - Advice Needed ...

    Quote Originally Posted by x2rider
    If I remember correctly when you use flocculant, you run pump on recirc for a certain amount of time, shut the pump off say in the evening, and in the morning, there should be a cloud of debris on the floor of the pool which you vac to waste, then backwash and go back to normal filter schedule.

    Until you know cya, you're not going to know what level you need to bring the chlorine level up to in order to fight this, which may involve changing some water out first so you don't waste even more money on chlorine.
    Thanks x2. I will have it checked today. Already, I can tell my BioGuard basic test kit will need to be upgraded to one that will cover all the test required to maintain (i.e. - "know") my pool. Would you kindly recommend a Test Kit, Brand and Model Number, that you think would test all the elements necessary to maintain water balance without having to run over to the pool place every time I need to test anything other than FC, PH, and TA? Lastly, good advice on not wasting money on more chlorine!
    Dave
    Cartersville, GA
    IG Vinyl | 36K gal | 60 gpm Sand Filter | 3/4 hp pump

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    Re: Sailinshuz - Advice Needed ...

    The TF100 test kit from tftestkits.net is the one most people on this site use. The speedstir device sold on the site is a real time saver. It's money well spent.
    28K, 20' x 40' IG - Vinyl Liner, Hayward DE Filter, 1.5HP Pump, 250K Hayward BTU Heater, Aquabot Breeze 4WD robotic cleaner

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    Re: Sailinshuz - Advice Needed ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bama Rambler
    What test kit or store did you use to get those numbers?
    What is your FC & CC?

    Have you scooped out as much debris as possible? If so then begin shocking. If not then keep scooping.

    After 2½ years I suspect your CYA is zero. If that proves to be true your shock level is 10 ppm. However, I would begin the shocking process and then add enough CYA to get to about 30 ppm. Then raise your Shock level to match (12 ppm) the next day. You need to retest and adjust the FC back to shock level as often as every hour.

    Once you get it all cleaned up we can work on the swcg.
    What test kit or store did you use to get those numbers?
    Answer: I used a basic BioGuard 3-test model.
    What is your FC & CC?
    Answer: My best value for each of these is: FC=5+ | CC=? . I am going to go to the pool place today to have the water tested more completely than I can test it.
    Have you scooped out as much debris as possible? If so then begin shocking. If not then keep scooping.
    Answer: No, I haven't. I tried, though. I have only a leaf scoop / rake that is not good quality. I will give it another whirl, doing the best I can do with it.
    After 2½ years I suspect your CYA is zero. If that proves to be true your shock level is 10 ppm. However, I would begin the shocking process and then add enough CYA to get to about 30 ppm. Then raise your Shock level to match (12 ppm) the next day. You need to retest and adjust the FC back to shock level as often as every hour.
    Answer: Please recommend the best type of chlorine to shock with and the best type to chlorinate with. My test kit is really basic, and I will have to look into a replacement test kit that will allow me to read super chlorination levels, such as 10 ppm and 12 ppm, and test for CYA. Which test kit do you recommend I look for to have the ability to test for everything you Pros are testing on your own? I'm not even in the same league as you guys. I feel very ill-equipped and have a slight case of "test kit envy" ! (Grin)
    Thanks for your input, Bama Rambler!
    Dave
    Cartersville, GA
    IG Vinyl | 36K gal | 60 gpm Sand Filter | 3/4 hp pump

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    Re: Sailinshuz - Advice Needed ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Siamese
    The TF100 test kit from tftestkits.net is the one most people on this site use. The speedstir device sold on the site is a real time saver. It's money well spent.
    Thanks, Siamese. I will look up these, today! I needs some tools!
    Dave
    Cartersville, GA
    IG Vinyl | 36K gal | 60 gpm Sand Filter | 3/4 hp pump

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    Re: Sailinshuz - Advice Needed ...

    The tf-100 is the best value.

    I use bleach exclusively. I recommend it for shocking and regular chlorinating.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
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    Re: Sailinshuz - Advice Needed ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bama Rambler
    The tf-100 is the best value.

    I use bleach exclusively. I recommend it for shocking and regular chlorinating.
    Hi BR ... What concentration of bleach do you use, 6%?
    Dave
    Cartersville, GA
    IG Vinyl | 36K gal | 60 gpm Sand Filter | 3/4 hp pump

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    Re: New water test results today ...

    Hi folks, Sailinshuz is still at it! Thanks for tolerating us newbies, because "we don't know, what we don't know!"

    OK ... Ran to the pool place today and had them test the water. I guess they know what they are doing. They charge $10.00 to test water samples, if customers don't make a purchase. So, I made a $7.00 purchase, and walked out with some of "Bad Byron's Butt Rub" and my new test results.

    Here they are:
    TC = 10 ppm
    FC = 10 ppm
    CYA = 100 ppm
    PH = 6.2 ppm
    TA = 74 ppm
    Green Algae Visible


    I took a stab at resolving my algae issue, based on former practices, directly before I joined TFP. Sharing my treatment approach prompted helpful input from the group and educated me in what not to do and where to find specific recommendations related to my situation. Things are looking up for me ! (smile)

    Time to regroup and re-think. I plan to dig into Pool School, as time allows. I have some suggestions from the group that I need to apply, such as removing debris from the pool and shock only under the right conditions as a process ... not an event!

    Questions ... based on new readings:
    1 - Do I need to raise the TA.
    2 - Is the CYA level too high?
    3 - When do I need to add algaecide, and what type ... copper-based?, polyquat?



    Reference:
    Vinyl Liner
    40x20 Roman Style
    36,000 gallons
    Tagelus TA60D Sand Filter filled with Zeosand

    “ I ask not for a lighter burden, but for broader shoulders ... ”
    Dave
    Cartersville, GA
    IG Vinyl | 36K gal | 60 gpm Sand Filter | 3/4 hp pump

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Sailinshuz - Advice Needed ...

    First ... never pay to have a pool store do a water test (first I have ever heard of that ) ... they are generally pretty inaccurate and then offer confusing and expensive advice.

    Did you order your test kit yet (see link in signature). That is Step #1.
    Step #2 is to read Pool School. The first articles cover the basics ... then focus on understanding:
    Defeating Algae
    Turning Your Green Swamp Back into a Sparkling Oasis
    Shocking Your Pool

    Now we come to the tricky part. IF you CYA is really 100 (which is the top of the test BTW, so it could be well over that), you need to drain at least 50% of the pool to get the CYA to the recommended range. BUT, can we trust the pool store test? I think if they say it is high, it probably is, so you could probably start replacing water. To be safe, wait for the kit and then test it yourself.

    To answer your questions:
    1. No TA = 70 is probable fine (assuming it is correct) and not nearly as important as CYA and FC at this point
    2. Yes, 100ppm is too high. Is it really 100? Or lower? Or higher????
    3. NEVER ... with correct FC levels for your CYA, you should never need to add algaecides/clarifier/floc/etc. And NEVER add anything with copper in it.

    If you want something to do now, start fishing all the junk out.

    EDIT: Just noticed something. That pH is REALLY low and should be brought up to the 7s immediately if that is accurate. Do you have any other way of testing the pH?
    Jason, TFP Moderator
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    Re: Sailinshuz - Advice Needed ...

    Like everyone else has said, you need a good test kit (I use the TF-100 with speed stir option, the speed stir is nice, but not required)), when it comes to pool store testing, if it is the ONLY option at a minimum get testing done a 2 or 3 different stores and see if they closely agree. If you need to buy something at a pool store to get free testing done there are a few safe bets, toys are one, liquid chlorine is the other. (there may be others depending on your type of pool and water conditions, for example you have a DE filter for DE filter compound would be a good purchase that you are unlikely to find at the grocery store, big box store, etc. although Lowes does carry it).

    As to your question about what type of bleach, in general people here try to buy the best value for the strength, any strength will work, you just need more of it (1 gal of 12% = 2 gallons of 6% = 4 gallons of 3%), you may want to pay a slightl price premium for 12% as it is easier to carry, just be aware bleach looses stregth with time, and the stronger it is the faster it looses stregth (therefore never buy sping clearance 12% from the pool store that was left over from the previous year).
    Indoor 20x40 35,000 gallon vinyl pool with 1.5 HP 2 speed Jandy FloPro pump, Hayward EC75 Perflex DE filter, 11 4x12 Techno-Solis solar panels w/ Aquasolar controller, Aquabot Turbo T Robot Cleaner. Also LMI metering chlorine dispenser pump and HotSpring Jetsetter
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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: Sailinshuz - Advice Needed ...

    Just going to chime in here to reinforce what the others have said.

    Raise the pH now!

    Order a good test kit if you haven't already done so.
    Don't worry about the TA for now.
    Drain half of your water and have the CYA retested if you think that result is accurate. If you don't know for sure get the test kit!
    Your shock level for a CYA of 100 ppm is 40 ppm FC and you'd need 18 gallons of 6% bleach to get there from a FC of 10. And that doesn't account for keeping it there every hour once you get it there.

    I use 6% bleach, usually the Great Value brand because it's handy. I've tried 10 & 12.5% but it's not readily available where I'm located.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
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    TF100 Test Kit

    My TF100 Test Kit shipped today ... I am eager to test more water properties at higher levels. Looking forward to feeling empowered!
    Dave
    Cartersville, GA
    IG Vinyl | 36K gal | 60 gpm Sand Filter | 3/4 hp pump

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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: Sailinshuz - Advice Needed ...

    Post the results when you get the kit.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
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    Re: Sailinshuz - Advice Needed ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bama Rambler
    Post the results when you get the kit.
    As quickly as I am able, I will post a full set of test results.

    I am still curious from reading in Pool School, that higher CYA levels require higher chlorination and shock levels, and "Eventually the CYA level will build up to a point that renders your chlorine ineffective." I don't understand. Does the protection from sunlight that CYA provides to chlorine trap the FC in some way, when the CYA level is very high?

    Thanks for your support.
    Dave
    Cartersville, GA
    IG Vinyl | 36K gal | 60 gpm Sand Filter | 3/4 hp pump

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    Thought I would post a pic of my swamp ...

    Thought I would post a pic of my swamp ... this is right before we gigged all the frogs ! ( GRIN )
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Dave
    Cartersville, GA
    IG Vinyl | 36K gal | 60 gpm Sand Filter | 3/4 hp pump

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    Mod Squad zea3's Avatar
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    Re: Sailinshuz - Advice Needed ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sailinshuz
    Quote Originally Posted by Bama Rambler
    Post the results when you get the kit.
    As quickly as I am able, I will post a full set of test results.

    I am still curious from reading in Pool School, that higher CYA levels require higher chlorination and shock levels, and "Eventually the CYA level will build up to a point that renders your chlorine ineffective." I don't understand. Does the protection from sunlight that CYA provides to chlorine trap the FC in some way, when the CYA level is very high?

    Thanks for your support.
    From my understanding, CYA shields chlorine from the sun's uv rays like a layer of clothing protects you from the cold. If you keep adding layers of clothing eventually you will not feel the cold. You will also be so bundled up you won't be able to move around as efficiently as you could in a t-shirt and shorts.

    Lets look at a couple of examples: You have a pool. Conventional wisdom has taught you that adding a bag of dichlor shock and 1 tab in the floater every week will keep things nice and clear. For a while it does. What you don't know is the CYA in the shock and the tabs is building up and will only go away if you remove it by draining and replacing some water. The pool is looking cloudy, conventional wisdom says add more chlorine, so now its 2 bags of shock and 2 tabs in the floater every week. Pool looks better for a little while, then suddenly its worse than before. What you don't know is in addition to doubling the chlorine you have also doubled the CYA that you are adding, and the pool is looking worse than ever very quickly! Someone advises you to switch to a cal-hypo shock, that helps for a little while but the CYA is still sky high and now your calcium is rapidly rising. The only way to "fix" the pool is to drain a percentage of the water and refill.

    Lets say you are a long distance runner and it is 30 degrees outside. You won't last long in just your shorts and a t-shirt. You need protection from the cold, so you bundle up. Having too much CYA has the same effect as wearing underwear, long johns, sweats, jeans and flannel shirt, sweater, ski suit, and overcoat. Are you well protected from the cold? Yes. Are you going to be an effective long distance runner in this outfit? No! All those clothes will not go away by themselves so you have to remove the layers until you reach the point where you are adequately protected, but can still be effective as a runner. Thus, you have to remove the excess CYA, leaving behind enough to adequately protect the FC from the sun but still be effective as a sanitizer.

    For more information on the scientific explanation of how CYA works, read through some of the posts in "the Deep End" section of the forum.
    TFP Moderator
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