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Thread: heater: a lot of questions

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    heater: a lot of questions

    well its getting cold here (almost over night) one day 95 next day our high has been 70, our swim season it taking a beating.

    i done research on a cover and have one ordered, a clear diomand one. Not sure how good it is but its a cover.

    anyway

    1. i have no gas lines attached to my house, no meater no nothing, what is the average cost to have my virginia gas to come out and run a gas line.

    2. would it be better if i had a heat pump

    3. what size heater would i need, i know its a big one. Probably huge

    4. do they make on big enough for me that is not industrial.

    5. could i have two heaters, say two 300,000btu or does that not work

    TIA, i am very new to the heating world.

  2. Back To Top    #2

    Join Date
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    We have a Hayward Heatpump. Our pool is just a hair under 40K gallons. We have the 116K BTU one. When we filled the pool it was 83 degrees and by that afternoon the heater had it to 90 degrees. It works very well for us. We considered the gas one as it is cheaper up front, but gas is so $$$ we opted to spend the extra money up front and use the heat pump. My water is sitting at 91 with lows in the low 60'2-upper 50's at night. Highs in the upper 80's during the day.

  3. Back To Top    #3

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    I don't know about the costs in your area (especially for running gas to your house), but here in So Cal, it costs me about $100 just for the natural gas to heat the pool up about 15 degrees and it takes about 15 hours. That is with a 400k btu hayward heater and about 25k gallons of water. Needless to say, we rarely heat the whole pool. I've heated it a few times, the rest of the time we only heat the spa.
    ~Debbie~

    28k, 22'x37' freeform 3.5'-9'deep
    w/ 7.5' freeform spa raised 18" above pool, Gunite/dark gray plaster, 3 rivers flagstone,
    Aquarite SWCG, Aqualogic ps8, Frog, Colorlogic LED lights.
    Completed 2/06, in Sunny So Cal!

  4. Back To Top    #4
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    i called Va gas and it is 56 dollars a foot to run, so from my street to the pool pump would be about 2600 dollars, i think a heat pump might be the way to go. Plus i could buy one that could cool the pool too. it woud be 3-500 amonth to keep it heated to 86. with natural gas.

  5. Back To Top    #5

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    RT, figure the Heat Pump would save you a minimum of 40% of the gas cost of operation.
    For 50K gallons though, you're probably going to need TWO heat pumps.
    Do you know if digging a well would be an option for you? Geothermal heat pumps may be another option that can provide greater efficiency.
    Sean Assam - Sean@teamhorner.com
    National Accounts and Commercial Products Manager
    AquaCal Heat Pumps www.aquacal.com
    AutoPilot Salt Chlorine Generators www.autopilot.com

  6. Back To Top    #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poolsean
    RT, figure the Heat Pump would save you a minimum of 40% of the gas cost of operation.
    For 50K gallons though, you're probably going to need TWO heat pumps.
    Do you know if digging a well would be an option for you? Geothermal heat pumps may be another option that can provide greater efficiency.
    like a water well, we have one dug up for the in ground sprinklers. or somthing else. this is all very new to me, i thought i would need two heaters, how yould that work?

  7. Back To Top    #7

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    The ground water would be the source of heat for the geothermal (or water source) heat pump.

    Basically, you pump the ground water up from the well and through the first heat exchanger. This heats up the liquid freon, which changes from a liquid to a gas. The gas then gets compressed and heats up even more. This heat is then passed through another heat exchanger where the pool water flows past the freon. The freon cools off after releasing the heat to the pool water and returns to a liquid state. This process is repeated.
    The well should have a suction point and a discharge point downstream from the suction, as the heat pump will be sending back colder water.
    For the cold winter climates, the ground water stays fairly consistent so the heat pump will maintain it's efficiency and heat output. Air source heat pumps are different as they rely on the ambient air temperatures, so as it gets colder, the efficiency drops off.

    A two heat pump installation would involve the main return line getting split up between the two heat pumps, then returning from the heat pumps to a tee, and back into the pool. Same plumbing for the well water side.

    It sounds easy in concept, but there are a few specifications that must exist for the water source heat pump to work properly.
    Flow rates, water source temperature, and water quality of the well water.

    An air source, with a gas back up, can also save significant $$$ but you still will have that $2600 for running the gas lines.

    Let me know if the Geothermal interests you and I can send you the questionnaire to see if it's the right "fit".
    Sean Assam - Sean@teamhorner.com
    National Accounts and Commercial Products Manager
    AquaCal Heat Pumps www.aquacal.com
    AutoPilot Salt Chlorine Generators www.autopilot.com

  8. Back To Top    #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poolsean
    The ground water would be the source of heat for the geothermal (or water source) heat pump.

    Basically, you pump the ground water up from the well and through the first heat exchanger. This heats up the liquid freon, which changes from a liquid to a gas. The gas then gets compressed and heats up even more. This heat is then passed through another heat exchanger where the pool water flows past the freon. The freon cools off after releasing the heat to the pool water and returns to a liquid state. This process is repeated.
    The well should have a suction point and a discharge point downstream from the suction, as the heat pump will be sending back colder water.
    For the cold winter climates, the ground water stays fairly consistent so the heat pump will maintain it's efficiency and heat output. Air source heat pumps are different as they rely on the ambient air temperatures, so as it gets colder, the efficiency drops off.

    A two heat pump installation would involve the main return line getting split up between the two heat pumps, then returning from the heat pumps to a tee, and back into the pool. Same plumbing for the well water side.

    It sounds easy in concept, but there are a few specifications that must exist for the water source heat pump to work properly.
    Flow rates, water source temperature, and water quality of the well water.

    An air source, with a gas back up, can also save significant $$$ but you still will have that $2600 for running the gas lines.

    Let me know if the Geothermal interests you and I can send you the questionnaire to see if it's the right "fit".
    geothermal does intrest me. Thanks for all the info, would it be easier to to just get another pump and split up the two. i have 4 returns, should i have one pump for 2 returns and a heater and another pump for 2 more returns, that would get really expensive.

    im looking at getting new pumps any way, im looking at the 4X160 to get rid of the booster pump, would that provide enough flow?

  9. Back To Top    #9

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    For all the fuel you're dumping into your Yukon to keep it roaring, I can see why you want to save a few bucks heating the pool .

    A geothermal heat pump uses water running either horizontally through your yard (destructive) or pipes that run vertically (expensive) deep into the ground to warm up the evaporator instead of blowing air through it. The ground stays a consistent temperature year round so it's great when the air is cold. Unless you are planning to heat during the winter I'd say a geothermal is not ideal for you.
    Gary
    21k gal SW, IG Gunite PebbleSheen, 1HP Jandy, Jandy 340 filter, Polaris 280, 17' fiberglass slide w/ 2HP pump.

  10. Back To Top    #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by crabboy
    For all the fuel you're dumping into your Yukon to keep it roaring, I can see why you want to save a few bucks heating the pool .

    A geothermal heat pump uses water running either horizontally through your yard (destructive) or pipes that run vertically (expensive) deep into the ground to warm up the evaporator instead of blowing air through it. The ground stays a consistent temperature year round so it's great when the air is cold. Unless you are planning to heat during the winter I'd say a geothermal is not ideal for you.
    also gas isn't bad for this beast, whats bad if filling three beasts, every week or so.



    could i cheat here and steel the sprinker pumps line, that is vertically dug to find ground water, i hardly use the system any way, it would be nice to heat during the winter, im pondering the idea of leaving it open all year, but we will see.
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    We're sort of in the same boat as you... no gas lines at all in our neighborhood. Everyone thought total electric was the way to go in the mid 70's. We use propane. We had the option of buying, or leasing the tank. The lease for a 250 gallon tank is only 15.00 per month and the propane company takes really good care of us and the equipment. We recently renovated our pool (filled with water 7-20) and they came out and relocated the tank and hooked up the 400.000 BTU heater. Might check with the propane dealers in your area. Propane is fairly expensive, but was a good option at the time. We're looking into adding solar panels. Have seen some encourqaging posts on solar heat. We've only heated the spa so far. The propane heater will bring 700 gallons of 83 degree water up to 100 degrees in about 30 minutes. Don't think I can afford to heat the pool very much. Good Luck with the spa. Dan
    My pool… 30K gunite free form, 3 ft. to 11 ft. deep, with 700 gallon spill over spa. White plaster, Jandy 60 sq. ft. DE filter, 2HP Jandy Stealth Pump, 3/4 HP booster pump, Jandy color changing lights, Jandy 400,000 BTU heater, Polaris EOS command center with in-house controls, and shortcut remote next to spa. Hayward goldline valve actuators. 2HP Polaris QT blower for spa. Dolphin Dynamic robotic cleaner. Inline Chlorinator which is used with trichlor pucks ONLY when I need to raise my CYA, which I try to keep around 30 to 40 ppm.

  12. Back To Top    #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rollin Thunder
    Quote Originally Posted by crabboy
    For all the fuel you're dumping into your Yukon to keep it roaring, I can see why you want to save a few bucks heating the pool .

    A geothermal heat pump uses water running either horizontally through your yard (destructive) or pipes that run vertically (expensive) deep into the ground to warm up the evaporator instead of blowing air through it. The ground stays a consistent temperature year round so it's great when the air is cold. Unless you are planning to heat during the winter I'd say a geothermal is not ideal for you.
    also gas isn't bad for this beast, whats bad if filling three beasts, every week or so.



    could i cheat here and steel the sprinker pumps line, that is vertically dug to find ground water, i hardly use the system any way, it would be nice to heat during the winter, im pondering the idea of leaving it open all year, but we will see.
    You will need a specific flow rate on the pool side, so your Intelliflow pump may not activate the heat pumps when it is set for low flow. Each heat pump will need at least 20-30 gpm.
    Regarding using your well, you will need to have a another hole drilled for the water return. There are specific parameters on how far away from the suction point it needs to be too.

    Underwater Man, I'm confused with your description of the water running "horizontally through your yard (destructive)..." What part of a geothermal heat pump system runs horizontally?
    Sean Assam - Sean@teamhorner.com
    National Accounts and Commercial Products Manager
    AquaCal Heat Pumps www.aquacal.com
    AutoPilot Salt Chlorine Generators www.autopilot.com

  13. Back To Top    #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poolsean
    Quote Originally Posted by Rollin Thunder
    Quote Originally Posted by crabboy
    For all the fuel you're dumping into your Yukon to keep it roaring, I can see why you want to save a few bucks heating the pool .

    A geothermal heat pump uses water running either horizontally through your yard (destructive) or pipes that run vertically (expensive) deep into the ground to warm up the evaporator instead of blowing air through it. The ground stays a consistent temperature year round so it's great when the air is cold. Unless you are planning to heat during the winter I'd say a geothermal is not ideal for you.
    also gas isn't bad for this beast, whats bad if filling three beasts, every week or so.



    could i cheat here and steel the sprinker pumps line, that is vertically dug to find ground water, i hardly use the system any way, it would be nice to heat during the winter, im pondering the idea of leaving it open all year, but we will see.
    You will need a specific flow rate on the pool side, so your Intelliflow pump may not activate the heat pumps when it is set for low flow. Each heat pump will need at least 20-30 gpm.
    Regarding using your well, you will need to have a another hole drilled for the water return. There are specific parameters on how far away from the suction point it needs to be too.

    Underwater Man, I'm confused with your description of the water running "horizontally through your yard (destructive)..." What part of a geothermal heat pump system runs horizontally?

    i have not changed the pump and filter yet, im still shopping, the intelliflo just one of my choices, also changing to a De filter.
    any way, right now i pump at about 60 GPM, new figures from my 40GPM (new that was not right )

    ok so, my pump now is old and tired but still pumps at 60 gpm (when i can get her going, why i never turn it off). if i buy an intelliflo, would i have to run it at 60gpm for two heaters to keep them on?, also does anybody know the HP of the intelliflo?

    also what size heat pumps would i need, im looking at the

    Jandy AE3000- the one that heats and cools, i would need two of them, is this a good size tere 130btu so a total of 260btu, is this big enough? this all would also come to about 12,000 dollars when this is all said and done. for two heat pumps, intelliflo, and a 72 sqft de filter, WOW

  14. Back To Top    #14

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    Hi Poolsean... I think you have me confused with crabboy. I have no knowledge at all of a geothermal heat pump. If it works well and saves $ I would like to hear more about it. Thanks for bringing thermal heat into the thread.

    Dan
    My pool… 30K gunite free form, 3 ft. to 11 ft. deep, with 700 gallon spill over spa. White plaster, Jandy 60 sq. ft. DE filter, 2HP Jandy Stealth Pump, 3/4 HP booster pump, Jandy color changing lights, Jandy 400,000 BTU heater, Polaris EOS command center with in-house controls, and shortcut remote next to spa. Hayward goldline valve actuators. 2HP Polaris QT blower for spa. Dolphin Dynamic robotic cleaner. Inline Chlorinator which is used with trichlor pucks ONLY when I need to raise my CYA, which I try to keep around 30 to 40 ppm.

  15. Back To Top    #15
    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Depending on the brand/model, heaters require between 15 GPM and 30 GPM or they won't heat. If you had two heaters you would need double that flow.

    The IntelliFlo has a variable HP, from very low up to 3 HP max.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

  16. Back To Top    #16
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    ok great, thanks for the quick reply jason. IM just having a hard time jusatifying the price of one heater much less TWO

    the intelliflo seems like the pump for me though.

    does anybody know the difference between IntelliFLO and intelliPRO?

  17. Back To Top    #17

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    Underwater Man,

    My bad...sorry. It was suppose to be for CrabBoy.
    Sean Assam - Sean@teamhorner.com
    National Accounts and Commercial Products Manager
    AquaCal Heat Pumps www.aquacal.com
    AutoPilot Salt Chlorine Generators www.autopilot.com

  18. Back To Top    #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rollin Thunder
    does anybody know the difference between IntelliFLO and intelliPRO?
    There are really three models. The high end IntelliFlo VF3050 has a flow sensor and can maintain constant flow rates. The other two are variable speed, but don't have the flow sensor. The IntelliFlo VS3050 (formerly called 4x160) uses a WhisperFlo pump mechinisim, while the IntelliPro VS3050 uses a Max-E-Glass pump. All three use the same motor and speed controller.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

  19. Back To Top    #19
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    ok maybe i have all these messed up, the one im looking at is called the Intelliflo 3.2k, is that the high end one, is a flow sensor worth it.

  20. Back To Top    #20
    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Pentair is in the middle of changing the model numbers, which makes everything confusing.

    The IntelliFlo VF3050, with flow sensor, used to be called the IntelliFlo (3.2 KW) model # 011012 and typically is around $1200-1400 on the Internet.

    The IntelliFlo VS3050, with 4 variable speeds, used to be called the IntelliFlo 4 X 160 model # 011013 and typically is around $800-1000 on the Internet.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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