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Thread: Brand new pool... brand new pump... having problems.

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    carlos31820's Avatar
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    Brand new pool... brand new pump... having problems.

    I have a new 22k gallon in-ground vinyl pool. Pool has a Paramount in-floor cleaner which required a pump that could pump about 60 gpm at 70ft of head (according to Paramount tech support). Initially, the pool had a Jandy Flo-Pro 1hp pump but the in-floor cleaner was not performing well hence the call to Paramount tech support. As a result of their input, the PB replaced the Flo Pro pump with a Jandy Stealth 1hp full rated pump for better performance. The pump was hooked up today and it looks like something is definitely amiss with the new pump. The new pump seems unable to prime and after about 5-10 minutes it overheats and cuts off.

    Pool equipment consists of the following... Jandy Stealth 1hp full rated pump, Jandy CS-150 150sq ft cartridge filter, Jandy LXi 250k BTU heater, Paramount Vanquish (PC2000 equivalent for vinyl) in-floor cleaning system with deck-side debris canister.

    The PB is going to contact Jandy tech support in the morning but I thought I'd check with the experts and see what you think. The PB suspected a problem with the electrical service to the pump so we met the electrician and he checked everything and claims nothing is wrong with the electrical supply or connections. He said he sees a constant 120 volts and a max draw of 12 amps. The pump is on a dedicated 20 amp 120v circuit.

    We are puzzled as to why the pump seems to not want to prime and overheats. PB tried removing the Paramount valve and filter cartridge to remove any possible restriction and the pump still has about an inch of air in the top of the basket. We don't see any air coming out of the floor pop-ups or wall returns.

    Here is a photo of how the pool equipment is connected. The PVC valves on the suction side are for the skimmer and the main drain/debris canister.

    Any suggestions? PB is contacting Jandy tech support tomorrow but I figured there are many experts here that may offer suggestions.

    16x36 Vinyl Pool - 22.5K gallons.
    Jandy Stealth 1hp pump - Jandy CS-150 filter
    Jandy Legacy 250k heater - Jandy Ei SWCG
    Jandy Watercolors LED light
    Paramount Vanquish in-floor cleaner

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Brand new pool... brand new pump... having problems.

    It is possible that the pump is setup for 230 volts (it can be setup for 115 or 230), though that seems very unlikely if the electrician checked everything. Another possibility is that the pipes are blocked somewhere. Since everything is brand new, pipe blockage seems unlikely, but will be difficult to rule out.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    carlos31820's Avatar
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    Re: Brand new pool... brand new pump... having problems.

    PB and I specifically asked electrician about whether it was wired for 115 vs 230. The previous pump was much weaker and seemed to prime just fine. The suction side plumbing was just disconnected to swap the pumps.

    I am new to swimming pools so I don't really know what to check. Hopefully Jandy tech support will figure something out. I hate not being knowledgeable about this stuff. Feeling pretty helpless since its out of my hands.

    16x36 Vinyl Pool - 22.5K gallons.
    Jandy Stealth 1hp pump - Jandy CS-150 filter
    Jandy Legacy 250k heater - Jandy Ei SWCG
    Jandy Watercolors LED light
    Paramount Vanquish in-floor cleaner

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    solarboy's Avatar
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    Re: Brand new pool... brand new pump... having problems.

    Sucking air at the pump inlet? Someone forgot an O ring? I've had pumps that are hard to prime with very long suction lines.
    Self built 5500 gallon bare concrete (temporarily) pool with limestone coping, Pentair Swimmey 1/2 HP pump, Triton sand filter with DE, Simpool peristaltic muriatic acid pump with pH sensor and Monarch SWG. Home made solar heater with Pentair Compool control panel and 3 way valve. 1 skimmer, 1 main drain, 2 returns, 2" plumbing, Hayward auto fill valve.

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    solarboy's Avatar
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    Re: Brand new pool... brand new pump... having problems.

    Also don't like the way the suction line goes up before it goes down. I've had airlocks cause problems in that configuration although a pump that size should be able to overcome it.
    Self built 5500 gallon bare concrete (temporarily) pool with limestone coping, Pentair Swimmey 1/2 HP pump, Triton sand filter with DE, Simpool peristaltic muriatic acid pump with pH sensor and Monarch SWG. Home made solar heater with Pentair Compool control panel and 3 way valve. 1 skimmer, 1 main drain, 2 returns, 2" plumbing, Hayward auto fill valve.

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    carlos31820's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Brand new pool... brand new pump... having problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by solarboy
    Sucking air at the pump inlet? Someone forgot an O ring? I've had pumps that are hard to prime with very long suction lines.
    Not sure about the O ring deal.

    PB tried turning off skimmer while running main drain and vice versa. Plumbing run from pump to main drain is about 15-20 feet. Skimmer run is much longer since its in opposite side of pool.

    16x36 Vinyl Pool - 22.5K gallons.
    Jandy Stealth 1hp pump - Jandy CS-150 filter
    Jandy Legacy 250k heater - Jandy Ei SWCG
    Jandy Watercolors LED light
    Paramount Vanquish in-floor cleaner

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    carlos31820's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Brand new pool... brand new pump... having problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by solarboy
    Also don't like the way the suction line goes up before it goes down. I've had airlocks cause problems in that configuration although a pump that size should be able to overcome it.
    Yeah the previous pump could prime just fine in that configuration. Not sure what's different with this one.


    16x36 Vinyl Pool - 22.5K gallons.
    Jandy Stealth 1hp pump - Jandy CS-150 filter
    Jandy Legacy 250k heater - Jandy Ei SWCG
    Jandy Watercolors LED light
    Paramount Vanquish in-floor cleaner

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    solarboy's Avatar
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    Re: Brand new pool... brand new pump... having problems.

    There's 2 o rings that could cause you priming problems. Where the inlet pipe goes into the pump there is normally an o ring. If this is kinked or missing it could cause an airleak. Also, the lid of the strainer basket (the perspex one) has an o ring which could be kinked or missing.
    Self built 5500 gallon bare concrete (temporarily) pool with limestone coping, Pentair Swimmey 1/2 HP pump, Triton sand filter with DE, Simpool peristaltic muriatic acid pump with pH sensor and Monarch SWG. Home made solar heater with Pentair Compool control panel and 3 way valve. 1 skimmer, 1 main drain, 2 returns, 2" plumbing, Hayward auto fill valve.

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    carlos31820's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Brand new pool... brand new pump... having problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by solarboy
    Also don't like the way the suction line goes up before it goes down. I've had airlocks cause problems in that configuration although a pump that size should be able to overcome it.
    Noticed that the Jandy Stealth pump manual specifically mentions not to plumb any inverted Us on the return side above the pump inlet.
    16x36 Vinyl Pool - 22.5K gallons.
    Jandy Stealth 1hp pump - Jandy CS-150 filter
    Jandy Legacy 250k heater - Jandy Ei SWCG
    Jandy Watercolors LED light
    Paramount Vanquish in-floor cleaner

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    Re: Brand new pool... brand new pump... having problems.

    Things I noticed:

    Suction side plumbing has a loop and no straight pipe in front of the pump. There should be at least 8" before the 1st turn and no loop. Cheap ball valves too.

    The Tee used between the skimmer line and drain line will cause one to be favored over the other.

    This is a perfect example of how NOT to plumb the suction side.

    The filter is undersized. Seriously.

    While the bypass before the heater will work, I think valves should have been set to be able to entirely bypass the heater. There will come a time when the heater springs a leak and Mr. Murphy is watching.

    The gas pipe feeding the heater has no moisture trap and should never have more than 5' of 3/4" pipe. I can foresee issues with insufficient gas delivery coming.

    Scott
    Owner of - PoolGuyNJ LLC
    Expert Pool and Spa Repairs, Renovations, and Augmentation. Helping people decide what is the right gear for meeting their needs. Expectations Set, Expectations Met, No Surprises.

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Brand new pool... brand new pump... having problems.

    PoolGuyNJ, all good points, but none of them are at all likely to cause the symptoms described.

    It is fairly easy to check for a problem with the o-ring sealing the pump strainer basket lid. Remove the lid and examine the sealing ring. It should be uniform, clean, and free of any nicks kinks or dents. Then make sure that the lid mounts securely back onto the strainer basket.

    A leak at the pump input pipe connection, or anywhere along the suction plumbing, would tend to cause churning water/air in the strainer basket, which should be easily visible.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: Re: Brand new pool... brand new pump... having problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by PoolGuyNJ
    Things I noticed:

    Suction side plumbing has a loop and no straight pipe in front of the pump. There should be at least 8" before the 1st turn and no loop. Cheap ball valves too.

    The Tee used between the skimmer line and drain line will cause one to be favored over the other.

    This is a perfect example of how NOT to plumb the suction side.

    The filter is undersized. Seriously.

    While the bypass before the heater will work, I think valves should have been set to be able to entirely bypass the heater. There will come a time when the heater springs a leak and Mr. Murphy is watching.

    The gas pipe feeding the heater has no moisture trap and should never have more than 5' of 3/4" pipe. I can foresee issues with insufficient gas delivery coming.

    Scott
    PB is removing the suction side loop. I'll ask him about putting a valve to fully bypass the heater. The flex line for gas is 1.5 inch all the way to the heater.


    16x36 Vinyl Pool - 22.5K gallons.
    Jandy Stealth 1hp pump - Jandy CS-150 filter
    Jandy Legacy 250k heater - Jandy Ei SWCG
    Jandy Watercolors LED light
    Paramount Vanquish in-floor cleaner

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    Re: Brand new pool... brand new pump... having problems.

    To a certain degree Jason, you are right but

    Air is getting in at the suction side. Likely locations are the union, the lid, the pump plugs, or the seal set, though that location is unlikely given it's a new pump.

    My first instinct would be to check the gasket at the suction side union and the pump plugs. Then refill with water and start up up again. Checking the union will ensure the o-ring is in place and not deformed. Checking the pump plugs to ensure they are snug will eliminate them. Refilling with all the water it can hold will ensure maximum impeller coverage so the air can get sucked out of the loop in front of the pipe verifies the lid is sealing.

    If that doesn't do it, there is an air leak in a plumbing fitting, most likely at the pad. It is possible a fitting didn't get glued. With no tension, it might not leak. Changing the pump might have changed that and it now leaks.

    The OP posted as I was writing this that the loop is going. This is good. Ask him if he has a Jandy NeverLube or Pentair equivalent 3 way valve to use instead of the ball valves.

    I can see no reason an unloaded Stealth would shut down unless the motor was toast. If the seals got hot, the motor protection would not know it. Take off the impeller so the seals don't rub together and that motor will spin for years. If the motor had a defect, that's a different story.

    Scott
    Owner of - PoolGuyNJ LLC
    Expert Pool and Spa Repairs, Renovations, and Augmentation. Helping people decide what is the right gear for meeting their needs. Expectations Set, Expectations Met, No Surprises.

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    carlos31820's Avatar
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    Re: Brand new pool... brand new pump... having problems.

    Spoke with PB. Suction side loop is gone but he's still having the same issue. Although the pump doesn't fully prime, it definitely has considerable pressure as we can see water stirring vigorously on the surface of the pool whenever the floor jets point at the walls of the pool. That being said, we obviously still have a problem since the motor still overheats and turns off.

    16x36 Vinyl Pool - 22.5K gallons.
    Jandy Stealth 1hp pump - Jandy CS-150 filter
    Jandy Legacy 250k heater - Jandy Ei SWCG
    Jandy Watercolors LED light
    Paramount Vanquish in-floor cleaner

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    Re: Brand new pool... brand new pump... having problems.

    Bet it's missing a leg on the power. 115 vs 220 will do that.

    Scott
    Owner of - PoolGuyNJ LLC
    Expert Pool and Spa Repairs, Renovations, and Augmentation. Helping people decide what is the right gear for meeting their needs. Expectations Set, Expectations Met, No Surprises.

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    carlos31820's Avatar
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    Re: Brand new pool... brand new pump... having problems.

    Pump is on a dedicated 115v 20 amp circuit. Can you please elaborate? Not sure what you mean by missing leg.

    We did ask Electrician to double check the pump connection and voltage wiring scheme.

    16x36 Vinyl Pool - 22.5K gallons.
    Jandy Stealth 1hp pump - Jandy CS-150 filter
    Jandy Legacy 250k heater - Jandy Ei SWCG
    Jandy Watercolors LED light
    Paramount Vanquish in-floor cleaner

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Brand new pool... brand new pump... having problems.

    Earlier it was mentioned that the electrician claimed 12 amps peak, which is about right for the pump being setup for 115 volts and the circuit supplying 115 volts. If it was setup wrong either way (pump 115 & supply 230 or pump 230 & supply 115) the amp reading would be different. Of course the original comment might not actually be true, but that seems unlikely.

    We seem to be deep into unlikely possibilities here. None of the obvious possibilities have panned out, so all we are left with is the unlikely. For me that means we need to go back and be more methodical, double checking some of our assumptions. It may be that something isn't really the way it appears to be. For example, it would be nice if someone other than the original electrician could double check the pump wiring. Likewise, it would be nice to get a new more complete description of what the behavior of the water in the pump strainer basket looks like.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: Brand new pool... brand new pump... having problems.

    I once had a situation like this that turned out to be a one way valve had been put back on the wrong way round.
    Self built 5500 gallon bare concrete (temporarily) pool with limestone coping, Pentair Swimmey 1/2 HP pump, Triton sand filter with DE, Simpool peristaltic muriatic acid pump with pH sensor and Monarch SWG. Home made solar heater with Pentair Compool control panel and 3 way valve. 1 skimmer, 1 main drain, 2 returns, 2" plumbing, Hayward auto fill valve.

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    Re: Re: Brand new pool... brand new pump... having problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonLion
    Earlier it was mentioned that the electrician claimed 12 amps peak, which is about right for the pump being setup for 115 volts and the circuit supplying 115 volts. If it was setup wrong either way (pump 115 & supply 230 or pump 230 & supply 115) the amp reading would be different. Of course the original comment might not actually be true, but that seems unlikely.

    We seem to be deep into unlikely possibilities here. None of the obvious possibilities have panned out, so all we are left with is the unlikely. For me that means we need to go back and be more methodical, double checking some of our assumptions. It may be that something isn't really the way it appears to be. For example, it would be nice if someone other than the original electrician could double check the pump wiring. Likewise, it would be nice to get a new more complete description of what the behavior of the water in the pump strainer basket looks like.
    The circuit appears to be set up for 115v since that's the voltage shown on the pool timer screws connected to the pump. Likewise, the additional unused outlet on this same circuit shows 115v. The amps fluctuate from 9-12. Amps seem to change as the Paramount valve switches from zone to zone for the in floor cleaning system.

    The exact pump behavior is as follows. With the pump turned off and unprimed, we fill the basket with water, close lid and start pump. Initially the water level in the basket drops to almost empty but soon water comes rushing in. During this time, the cartridge filter air release is open and you can hear air rushing out. The strainer basket eventually fills leaving about an inch or so of air at the top. No water touches the clear window on the pump lid. You can see the water churning below the air gap. Eventually the cartridge filter air release starts squirting water but the pump remains not fully primed after closing the air release. After a few minutes, the pump motor feels very hot to the touch until the thermal protection clicks and shuts off the pump. From the time we start it until shut down, the pump runs about 5-10 minutes. Ambient temperature yesterday was in the 50s.

    Maybe ill shoot a video of it this afternoon.

    16x36 Vinyl Pool - 22.5K gallons.
    Jandy Stealth 1hp pump - Jandy CS-150 filter
    Jandy Legacy 250k heater - Jandy Ei SWCG
    Jandy Watercolors LED light
    Paramount Vanquish in-floor cleaner

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    carlos31820's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Brand new pool... brand new pump... having problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by solarboy
    I once had a situation like this that turned out to be a one way valve had been put back on the wrong way round.
    That would be nice and simple but there are no one way valves.

    Btw... thank you guys for all the help. I really appreciate it.

    16x36 Vinyl Pool - 22.5K gallons.
    Jandy Stealth 1hp pump - Jandy CS-150 filter
    Jandy Legacy 250k heater - Jandy Ei SWCG
    Jandy Watercolors LED light
    Paramount Vanquish in-floor cleaner

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